Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

Any major defence deal in this benighted city, crawling with defence agents, fixers, corporate lobbyists and self-styled ‘subjantawalas’ (know-alls) is bound to be called a scam. In the post-Bofors decades, every government has spun more complex layers of procedures to escape just such an opprobrium. None has succeeded in achieving such immunity, and none can. The Modi government had the opportunity to change this with transparency, disclosure and engagement. It has blown it.

There’s a humongous scam in the Rafale deal. It is called stupidity


The real reason remains rooted in structure of ministry of Defence. The single biggest change that Modi government could have enacted is restructuring MoD into a Pentagon like DoD, which is not exclusively manned by civilian bureaucrats. An MoD which is non-functional despite all kinds of positive leadership will consistently under-perform.
The flip-side to such reform remains reduction of certain amount of political influence on it's functioning which neither this government like it's predecessors are willing to dilute.
 
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Yes, that is customer's choice and we are paying for it. Its also a shame for a company with such a long legacy and capability to take six years to integrate some weapons and a pod.
There is a problem in India with the assessment of development timelines. Dassault is one of the fastest companies in the world to develop aeronautics. But the Indians think that HAL could make the same developments in three times less time than Dassault.

Let's take the example of the F3R standard that was developed for France, the contract was signed on December 30, 2013 and will be delivered at the end of 2018, but will enter into service only a few months later (i.e. in 2019) because the French Air Force takes 6 months to test and accept the standard. This means that it took more than 5 years to develop it and its cost is 1 billion euros.

Now the changes requested by the Indians represent a new standard that costs 1.8 billion euros but you estimate that 6 years is too long to develop and perfect it.

In fact, you think we could do it in 2 years, that's what HAL would announce, but only because they're not professional. They only count the time needed to have something that can be taken on board and that does the job.

If that's all it was, Dassault already has the Indian standard that is being developed and that can be shown to an Indian Air Force general.

IAF Deputy Chief, Who Struck Pakistani Intruders In Kargil, To Fly Rafale With India Specific Upgrades Tomorrow
IAF Deputy Chief, Who Struck Pakistani Intruders In Kargil, To Fly Rafale With India Specific Upgrades Tomorrow

How is that possible? Think about it:
  • For this demonstration do you need to go to the anechoic chamber to test all the new payload configurations in order to update SPECTRA and thus allow it to perform active cancellation in any case?
  • Is it necessary to test if it is possible to fire a SCALP during a BVR combat using meteor to demonstrate to a general?
These are two examples that show that the work is not finished and yet we can do demonstrations. Because what is long is
  • to check that there is no regression on all the functions already developed,
  • to define the flight domain in which new loads can be used and
  • to take into account these new configurations for the electronic warfare functions that depend on the geometry and characteristics of the aircraft.
For the demonstration that we will do, we will use the aircraft in a flight domain already tested, which does not require a lot of development time.
 
You know there are talks about opening an aero-engineering college?

another one? We've already got IISC in Bangalore and several IITs with excellent aerospace courses. I think any additional course will be absorbed in one of them for making the knowledge acquisition more efficient.
 
There is a problem in India with the assessment of development timelines. Dassault is one of the fastest companies in the world to develop aeronautics. But the Indians think that HAL could make the same developments in three times less time than Dassault.

Let's take the example of the F3R standard that was developed for France, the contract was signed on December 30, 2013 and will be delivered at the end of 2018, but will enter into service only a few months later (i.e. in 2019) because the French Air Force takes 6 months to test and accept the standard. This means that it took more than 5 years to develop it and its cost is 1 billion euros.

Now the changes requested by the Indians represent a new standard that costs 1.8 billion euros but you estimate that 6 years is too long to develop and perfect it.

In fact, you think we could do it in 2 years, that's what HAL would announce, but only because they're not professional. They only count the time needed to have something that can be taken on board and that does the job.

If that's all it was, Dassault already has the Indian standard that is being developed and that can be shown to an Indian Air Force general.

IAF Deputy Chief, Who Struck Pakistani Intruders In Kargil, To Fly Rafale With India Specific Upgrades Tomorrow
IAF Deputy Chief, Who Struck Pakistani Intruders In Kargil, To Fly Rafale With India Specific Upgrades Tomorrow

How is that possible? Think about it:
  • For this demonstration do you need to go to the anechoic chamber to test all the new payload configurations in order to update SPECTRA and thus allow it to perform active cancellation in any case?
  • Is it necessary to test if it is possible to fire a SCALP during a BVR combat using meteor to demonstrate to a general?
These are two examples that show that the work is not finished and yet we can do demonstrations. Because what is long is
  • to check that there is no regression on all the functions already developed,
  • to define the flight domain in which new loads can be used and
  • to take into account these new configurations for the electronic warfare functions that depend on the geometry and characteristics of the aircraft.
For the demonstration that we will do, we will use the aircraft in a flight domain already tested, which does not require a lot of development time.

actually most Indians think HAL will take 8 times more development time than Dassault on everything. You ever seen the place? Trust me I pass them every day towards office. Unlike ISRO there is always something happening there- notably very nasty union elections and stuff every now and then.
 
actually most Indians think HAL will take 8 times more development time than Dassault on everything. You ever seen the place? Trust me I pass them every day towards office. Unlike ISRO there is always something happening there- notably very nasty union elections and stuff every now and then.
HAL in a few words :

Rafale Deal: Dassault, Boeing, US Ex-Envoy Flagged HAL’s Quality Control

Defence Ministry sources said that Roemer and Dassault, as well as top IAF officers, agree that quality would have been compromised had the HAL been the Indian partner of the French manufacturer.

After some French government officials were able to “lay their hands” on Roemer’s report, Dassault executives and specialists sought permission from the Defence Ministry, then under the stewardship of AK Antony of the Congress-led UPA, to visit HAL’s factory in Nashik where the Russian Sukhoi-30 fighter jets were being produced at the time.
Once permission was granted, based on Dassault’s study of HAL’s Nashik facility the French government conveyed their displeasure over quality control once it was discovered that there were production-related problems over the manufacture of the SU-30s.
Dassault’s conclusion was that the company “could not risk its global reputation” by partnering with the HAL, as the latter’s production facilities in Nashik were “in shambles,” according to top IAF sources.

***
Boeing ends contract with HAL over ‘poor quality’ of production.

Boeing’s decision came after repeated reminders to HAL about its “poor quality” of production, sources said.
Boeing has over the last few years shifted its component sourcing requirements in India to private companies — Tata Group, Dynamatic Technologies, Rossell Techsys and others.


Rafale Deal: Dassault, US Ex-Envoy Flagged HAL’s Quality Control - The Quint
Boeing ends contract with HAL over ‘poor quality’ of production
 
HAL in a few words :

Rafale Deal: Dassault, Boeing, US Ex-Envoy Flagged HAL’s Quality Control

Defence Ministry sources said that Roemer and Dassault, as well as top IAF officers, agree that quality would have been compromised had the HAL been the Indian partner of the French manufacturer.

After some French government officials were able to “lay their hands” on Roemer’s report, Dassault executives and specialists sought permission from the Defence Ministry, then under the stewardship of AK Antony of the Congress-led UPA, to visit HAL’s factory in Nashik where the Russian Sukhoi-30 fighter jets were being produced at the time.
Once permission was granted, based on Dassault’s study of HAL’s Nashik facility the French government conveyed their displeasure over quality control once it was discovered that there were production-related problems over the manufacture of the SU-30s.
Dassault’s conclusion was that the company “could not risk its global reputation” by partnering with the HAL, as the latter’s production facilities in Nashik were “in shambles,” according to top IAF sources.

***
Boeing ends contract with HAL over ‘poor quality’ of production.

Boeing’s decision came after repeated reminders to HAL about its “poor quality” of production, sources said.
Boeing has over the last few years shifted its component sourcing requirements in India to private companies — Tata Group, Dynamatic Technologies, Rossell Techsys and others.


Rafale Deal: Dassault, US Ex-Envoy Flagged HAL’s Quality Control - The Quint
Boeing ends contract with HAL over ‘poor quality’ of production

Standard complacent psu culture
 
So you mean to say when you pass on the Road to your work you are able to see everything inside HAL?? Wonderful

actually most Indians think HAL will take 8 times more development time than Dassault on everything. You ever seen the place? Trust me I pass them every day towards office. Unlike ISRO there is always something happening there- notably very nasty union elections and stuff every now and then.
 
Reliance Has 10% Offset In Rafale, In Talks With 100 Firms: Dassault CEO

Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman reiterated the government's claim that it had no idea that Dassault Aviation would team up with Reliance Group.

Dassault Aviation's joint venture with Reliance represents around 10 per cent of the offset investments under the Rafale jet deal, Dassault CEO Eric Trappier has said.

"We're in talks with about 100 Indian firms, including around 30 with which we've already confirmed partnerships," Mr Trappier told AFP.

Separately on Thursday, speaking at a briefing in Paris, Defence Minister Nirmala Sitharaman reiterated the government's claim that it had no idea that Dassault Aviation would team up with Reliance Group, run by Anil Ambani.

Several reports say Dassault was forced to choose Reliance by Prime Minister Narendra Modi, despite it having almost no experience in the aviation sector.

On the eve of Ms Sitharaman's visit, French investigative website Mediapart quoted the notes of a meeting between Dassault management and workers' representatives which described the choice of Reliance as "imperative and compulsory".

"We are very clear: With the government of France, we agreed to purchase 36 Rafale aircraft in flyaway condition," Ms Sitharaman said.

"And in an intergovernmental agreement, there are no mentions of any individual firms," she said.

"It is more for the companies which have chosen A, B or C as their partners to answer questions if there are any," she said.


In a statement, Dassault released a transcript of what it said was Ms Trappier's interview with AFP in which he was asked about the status of the offsets.

"Signing an offset contract is a requirement of Indian law (Defence Procurement Procedure). The implementation of offsets is an obligation and, under the Indian regulation, the choice of the partners belongs to us," Mr Trappier was quoted as saying.

"In full compliance with this regulation, Dassault Aviation therefore decided to set up the DRAL joint venture with Reliance and build a plant in Nagpur, which should enable us to meet about 10% of these offset obligations. We are in negotiations with about a hundred Indian companies and partnerships have already been concluded with about thirty of them," he was quoted as saying.

He said what is called "offset" in English is usually translated into French as "compensation" or "contrepartie". With regard to the staff and trades unions organizations, Dassault Aviation uses the term "obligation contractuelle d'offset" or "obligation contractuelle de compensation", he said.

Dassault negotiated for years with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for the order, with the jets being jointly built in India.

But those talks were cancelled after Prime Minister Narendra Modi took office, when he decided to purchase the jets directly from France.

Asked why Dassault chose Reliance over HAL as its partner, Mr Trappier said Dassault Aviation decided to establish a long-term presence in India through DRAL, a joint enterprise in which governance is provided by an Indian Chief Executive Officer and a French Chief Operating Officer.

"Dassault Aviation therefore exercises technical and industrial control over the operations, applying its standards and its flexibility. This JV will produce parts for the Falcon 2000 and Rafale. The choice of the Nagpur site, in central India, was dictated by the availability of land with direct access to an airport runway, he was quoted as saying. Dassault on Wednesday said it had "freely chosen" to form a joint venture with Reliance. But that stance was contradicted recently by former French president Francois Hollande, under whose watch the Rafale deal was signed.

Mr Hollande said last month that France had "no choice" but to join with Reliance after it was pushed by the Indian government -- comments which were seized upon by Indian opposition parties.

Under Indian defence procurement rules, foreign companies winning contracts must "offset" or reinvest half the total value -- in this case around eight billion euros -- in joint ventures or purchases with Indian firms.
 
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That's basically like 830Cr to Reliance.
No sir, Boeing, LM, SAAB have signed on with HAL, Tata, Adani respectively as their partners for MMRCA 2.0. How and why have they done it? It is part of same policy by which DA chose DRAL as its partner. If any of these wins MMRCA 2.0, the local Indian partner will produce the MII content of the deal. DA choosing DRAL as its partner is as per policy in force even today. BJP has now chosen idiots to defend itself. Why are they not pointing out these things?
Take another case, Samtel, Tonbo, Dynamatics etc have been chosen by many other companies who have to meet the offset obligations. Why has Pappu not spoken about them. Were they chosen in violation of the policy put in place by UPA itself.
 
No sir, Boeing, LM, SAAB have signed on with HAL, Tata, Adani respectively as their partners for MMRCA 2.0. How and why have they done it? It is part of same policy by which DA chose DRAL as its partner. If any of these wins MMRCA 2.0, the local Indian partner will produce the MII content of the deal. DA choosing DRAL as its partner is as per policy in force even today. BJP has now chosen idiots to defend itself. Why are they not pointing out these things?
Take another case, Samtel, Tonbo, Dynamatics etc have been chosen by many other companies who have to meet the offset obligations. Why has Pappu not spoken about them. Were they chosen in violation of the policy put in place by UPA itself.

Pappu doesn't care about facts, he only cares about creating a controversy.

In return, BJP has decided to play the same game with Pappu.

Government lists projects won by Anil Ambani under UPA's watch
 
Congress is taking advantage of the average Indian's lack of knowledge about defense related matters and relying on rumors to create suspicion in their minds to turn them against BJP.
BJP is not defending itself properly and this has the potential to cost them dearly.