Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[randomradio]

Or maybe the Swiss fell to clever sales and marketing. In other words, they got screwed.

This is very very interesting. Now, you see - if LM gets the guillotine in Finland - we are not going to know. That information will probably be secret for 25 years. Some other plane will win; but the public will not know about the other planes. It is all secret stuff.

They didn't though. As already pointed out before the F-35 needs 20% less flight hours, that alone is a huge advantage. Combine that with a 20% weak dollar, then what costs $100 in France costs $60 in the US. We all know that a weak currency helps exports. Even after such a big difference, the 2nd place jet, presumably the Rafale, still managed to be merely $2B less. So the Rafale is definitely cheaper than the F-35 using a neutral currency, it's just that the better exchange rate and better training technologies pushes the advantage over to the F-35.

If Dassault introduces the same or even better simulators than the F-35, the advantage will go back to Rafale even with a 20% weak dollar. The point being if an air force decides that they don't want to lose flight hours for training, meaning they want to test both the F-35 and Rafale for 200 hours per year, then the Rafale will win based on LCC with a small margin. But that wouldn't make sense. The qualification of an F-35 pilot requires 50% less training time, this massive advantage plays a huge part in reducing prices, since the biggest component of the price of a jet is not the unit price but flying hours.

 

[suryakiran]

@randomradio

LM talking anything about the F-35, is like the Chinese talking about the Uighurs. The world knows what is happening, but nobody says anything because nobody wants to upset the applecart.

 

[randomradio]

@randomradio

LM talking anything about the F-35, is like the Chinese talking about the Uighurs. The world knows what is happening, but nobody says anything because nobody wants to upset the applecart.

Sure. But that's why I prefer what air forces say.

 

[Dawg-69]

I think the Swiss defense officials are waaay smarter than you and not into conspiracy theories. You're starting to sound ridiculous and when Finland selects the F-35 I can't wait to see you go nuts and start pulling claims out of your peppu about how LM fooled Finland into selecting the F-35... oh I can't wait for this it is going to be soooo delicious to see another Eurocanard fanboy get his hopes crushed.

There is absolutely no base for saying that "Finland will select F-35". It is the current favourite, yes. But think of this:

There are a full FOUR other planes in the competition, and EVERY ONE OF THEM has some advantage over the F-35.

These four other contestants are offered by companies run by PROFESSIONALS. They are not in the game for "fun". They are investing big money into the competition.

PROFESSIONALS in these companies have calculated that their chances of winning are non-zero, and that it is worth the effort and money to invest into this competition.

Let us think about Typhoon. If "they" want desperately to grab this deal, maybe they can do it. "They" can offer things like a satellite package, old Typhoons for training in the beginning for a cheap rent, massive knowledge sharing, and so on. If they do a deal that is good enough, they might just win. Typhoon is the best interceptor out of these five planes. It is armed with Meteors, which is the number one long range missile in the world now.

Why would the Brits want this deal? It could be because of the SIGINT. They are now developing a new AESA radar for the Typhoon, and the main enemy of this radar is the Russian S-400 system. An example of which... maybe... surprise, surprise... could be found at the Russian border! Who has the longest border with Russia? Who is close to both Murmansk and St. Petersburg? It is Finland.

And Finland has a relationship with BAE already. Finland operates Hawk trainers, and the relationship between FAF and BAE has been all good. No problems.

Likewise, the Swedes are desperate to get this deal. Maybe it ends up that Finland will end up buying the option that is cheapest to operate? It is Gripen. If scarce money decides the winner, then it will be Gripen. If you don't understand this, then you might get ten feet of cable and hang yourself from an elm tree, because you were unprepared and now the whole world is saying "LOOK HOW GRIPEN IS BETTER THAN F-35, IT WON IN FINLAND" - but maybe it was only because there is no money for anything else.

Super Hornet has two advantages. The Growlers are serious EW platforms, and it offers the easiest transition to a new plane for FAF.

And Rafale is still my favourite. But really, there is NO basis whatsoever to believe that F-35 would automatically win.

 

[Dawg-69]

when Finland selects the F-35

There could be dozens of reasons why Finland will not pick the F-35! And there are four other parties, who want this deal! There is simply no guarantee that F-35 will win!!!

It could still be ANY ONE of the five. Also, it could be that three planes are out of the race, two are left, and we won't be informed until 25 years have passed.

 

[Dawg-69]

Here's a great Lockheed Martin deal with Finland:

Puolustusvoimien Dragon Shield -valvontajärjestelmä täydessä FOC-valmiudessa | lentoposti.fi

Lockheed Martinin Suomen Puolustusvoimille toimittama Dragon Shield -järjestelmä on saavuttanut lopullisen FOC-tason (Final Operational Capability). Ilmavoimien Airbus C295M -kuljetuskoneeseen (CC-1) integroitu moderni laitteisto korvaa aiemman Fokker F.27 -koneeseen (FF-1) sijoitetun...

www.lentoposti.fi

That thing was supposed to be working in 2013. In the end, it was ready in 2018.

THAT IS FIVE YEARS LATE. Do you think Finnish people are stupid? Do you think that NO-ONE in the military will think: "wait a minute, the previous time we bought from LM, it was five years late. What if the F-35 block four is five years late too?"

JASSM integration for Hornets was an exercise in pain!!!! After this, the FAF decided that they will NEVER integrate ANY F---ING thing again into anything with wings. With HX, they only want stuff that is integrated already.

Then, a Europan disaster. The NH90 helicopter was a slow-motion train wreck for all of Northern Europe. Finland seem to be happier than Swedes, but boy was it late and boy was it a huge disaster. Now the Finnish NH90's are not flown much, they are so expensive to operate that they mostly stay on ground.

More troubles and problems can not and must not happen!!!! FAF needs a plane that operates from day ONE, with no massive headache and waiting and pain. Who can deliver? One option that is certain to work is - Rafale.

 

[randomradio]

More troubles and problems can not and must not happen!!!! FAF needs a plane that operates from day ONE, with no massive headache and waiting and pain. Who can deliver? One option that is certain to work is - Rafale.

I definitely agree with your line of thinking. But the Finnish are being quite generous with time.

HX Challenge pt. 3: Head start for Future Growth

The snow finally arrived to central Finland this week, and with it came the last eurocanard to take part in HX Challenge. 39-10, the latest of the pre-production JAS 39E Gripens, touched down on Ta…

corporalfrisk.com

By 2025 the first deliveries are to take place, so that Finnish Air Force personnel can start training on the aircraft. This might take place abroad or in Finland, key point is that the training starts, because by late 2027 the IOC should be declared, with the first HX squadron replacing a Hornet squadron in early 2028. By 2030 the last Hornets leave Finnish service, and HX declare FOC.

There's enough time for every single competitor to meet Finnish requirements by 2027-30.

 

[Dawg-69]

There's enough time for every single competitor to meet Finnish requirements by 2027-30.

Not the F-35, Block 4 will be late

 

[Innominate]

There could be dozens of reasons why Finland will not pick the F-35! And there are four other parties, who want this deal! There is simply no guarantee that F-35 will win!!!

It could still be ANY ONE of the five. Also, it could be that three planes are out of the race, two are left, and we won't be informed until 25 years have passed.

Nah. F-35 will be selected for obvious reasons and that is it is SUPERIOR than 4th gen fighters including the french plane and it will be cheaper to operate. Finland defense officials are not stupid or emotionally driven like many Eurocanard fanboys they are not going to select a 4th gen fighter that are becoming outdated for a future conflict under high-tech conditions.

Europe is becoming F-35 territory these nations defense officials know in order to keep up with future threats you're going to need a very advanced weapon system that can not only survive but thrive against advanced threats.

 

[Innominate]

Not the F-35, Block 4 will be late

It's delayed for USAF not for Swiss, Greece, Finland and other nations that will receive their F-35's mid 2020s.

Grip-E won't be FOC until 2027 and French plane F4, 28 of them, will be around 2024 with F4.2 starting in 2027.

Indians won't get their F4s until late 2020s the same will be for Finland.

 

[zinswinsin]

There is absolutely no base for saying that "Finland will select F-35". It is the current favourite, yes. But think of this:

There are a full FOUR other planes in the competition, and EVERY ONE OF THEM has some advantage over the F-35.

These four other contestants are offered by companies run by PROFESSIONALS. They are not in the game for "fun". They are investing big money into the competition.

PROFESSIONALS in these companies have calculated that their chances of winning are non-zero, and that it is worth the effort and money to invest into this competition.

Let us think about Typhoon. If "they" want desperately to grab this deal, maybe they can do it. "They" can offer things like a satellite package, old Typhoons for training in the beginning for a cheap rent, massive knowledge sharing, and so on. If they do a deal that is good enough, they might just win. Typhoon is the best interceptor out of these five planes. It is armed with Meteors, which is the number one long range missile in the world now.

Why would the Brits want this deal? It could be because of the SIGINT. They are now developing a new AESA radar for the Typhoon, and the main enemy of this radar is the Russian S-400 system. An example of which... maybe... surprise, surprise... could be found at the Russian border! Who has the longest border with Russia? Who is close to both Murmansk and St. Petersburg? It is Finland.

And Finland has a relationship with BAE already. Finland operates Hawk trainers, and the relationship between FAF and BAE has been all good. No problems.

Likewise, the Swedes are desperate to get this deal. Maybe it ends up that Finland will end up buying the option that is cheapest to operate? It is Gripen. If scarce money decides the winner, then it will be Gripen. If you don't understand this, then you might get ten feet of cable and hang yourself from an elm tree, because you were unprepared and now the whole world is saying "LOOK HOW GRIPEN IS BETTER THAN F-35, IT WON IN FINLAND" - but maybe it was only because there is no money for anything else.

Super Hornet has two advantages. The Growlers are serious EW platforms, and it offers the easiest transition to a new plane for FAF.

And Rafale is still my favourite. But really, there is NO basis whatsoever to believe that F-35 would automatically win.

The Brits can do whatever they want to grab the deal, but unfortunately the plane isn't up to par, it doesn't matter how much you offer. No one can afford tens of billions of dollars in false confidence unless you are Canada or New Zealand.

The Super Hornet has 0 chance of winning. The Growler EW platform is nice sure I guess, but the F-35 has it outmatched overall in EW. Your EW platform isn't going to be much use shotdown. The easy transition is false. Here's where the insane multi country list comes into play. Any country joining the F-35 program has training partners out the wazoo. Israel, UK, Denmark, Italy, Norway, Netherlands are just some of the super logical partners for this. Spare parts sharing, data sharing, and knowledge sharing. In addition, the only parters the Fins would have for the Super Hornet is what? Kuwait, Australia who's phasing everything out for Growlers and the USN? Makes no sense. Furthermore, I could get into how the Super Hornet is effectively a different plane and was part of the cold war end marketing, but I digress.

The Gripen is once again not worth discussion ever and as far as I'm concerned hasn't moved an inch from meme plane in 2017. Yay for Brazil?

Rafale vs F-35 is obviously the only matchup worth discussing.

On that front I believe Swiss results will be indicative, though i'm much less sure after AUKUS

 

[Lolwa]

The Brits can do whatever they want to grab the deal, but unfortunately the plane isn't up to par, it doesn't matter how much you offer. No one can afford tens of billions of dollars in false confidence unless you are Canada or New Zealand.

The Super Hornet has 0 chance of winning. The Growler EW platform is nice sure I guess, but the F-35 has it outmatched overall in EW. Your EW platform isn't going to be much use shotdown. The easy transition is false. Here's where the insane multi country list comes into play. Any country joining the F-35 program has training partners out the wazoo. Israel, UK, Denmark, Italy, Norway, Netherlands are just some of the super logical partners for this. Spare parts sharing, data sharing, and knowledge sharing. In addition, the only parters the Fins would have for the Super Hornet is what? Kuwait, Australia who's phasing everything out for Growlers and the USN? Makes no sense. Furthermore, I could get into how the Super Hornet is effectively a different plane and was part of the cold war end marketing, but I digress.

The Gripen is once again not worth discussion ever and as far as I'm concerned hasn't moved an inch from meme plane in 2017. Yay for Brazil?

Rafale vs F-35 is obviously the only matchup worth discussing.

On that front I believe Swiss results will be indicative, though i'm much less sure after AUKUS

Rafale is for lower-middle income countries with far more flexible foreign policy. Most of Europe is under U.S grip so f-35 will be the winner but finland does have much more flexibility considering they use lot of Soviet style weapons. But f35 would be the logical buy. Rafale would be a good buy but f-35 offers a psychological deterrence that the Rafale won't be able to give against the Russians.

 

[Innominate]

Rafale is for lower-middle income countries with far more flexible foreign policy.

French plane is for nations that are not offered the F-35. Can you define "flexible foreign policy" because that could mean anything.

Most of Europe is under U.S grip so f-35 will be the winner

So any nation that selects the F-35 is because the US has a "grip" on them? Then why not "grip" them to select other weapon systems like M1 tanks and M2/3 Bradley's? Why does the US only have a "grip" on them when it comes to the F-35? Why not naval ships?

but finland does have much more flexibility considering they use lot of Soviet style weapons.

Those soviet era weapons were bought during a different time when Finland was actually different country than it is today. There was an actual limit to what Finland could buy and tried to keep the peace by buying western and soviet and a week before Germany united Finland declared this treaty forced on them no longer active. Their first purchase of advanced weapon systems were F-18's.

But f35 would be the logical buy. Rafale would be a good buy but f-35 offers a psychological deterrence that the Rafale won't be able to give against the Russians.

Lol. "Logical" vs "good buy?" What does that even mean?

F-35 doesn't offer a psychological deterrence it IS a deterrence because of its capabilities that the french plane can't even match.

F-35 has become an unstoppable snowball effect in Europe (Like sunstersun said/paraphrase) with more Euro nations buying it the F-35 becomes cheaper, parts more available and easier to train because of the many Euro nations flying it.

 

[randomradio]

Rafale vs F-35 is obviously the only matchup worth discussing.

Pretty much. It's likely that both jets will make the cut. The competition then boils down to capability only. There isn't a better competition anywhere. They are gonna directly compare the F-35's best version by 2027 with the Rafale's best version by 2027, so Block 4 vs F4.2.

On that front I believe Swiss results will be indicative, though i'm much less sure after AUKUS

Why AUKUS?

 

[Dawg-69]

The Gripen is once again not worth discussion ever and as far as I'm concerned hasn't moved an inch from meme plane in 2017. Yay for Brazil?

Rafale vs F-35 is obviously the only matchup worth discussing.

You are preparing yourself for a disappointment... like I said earlier.

Now WHAT IF the budget is so small, that only Superbug and Gripen are able to fit into it.

Then there will be no Rafale vs F-35 matchup. What is the only matchup possible?

It is Superbug vs. Gripen.

But WHAT IF Gripen is the only plane that can meet the miminum number of aircraft inside the budget? Then there is no matchup.

And in theory, there is even the chance that NONE of the planes meet the requirements. Then everyone goes home. But this is very mutch a hypothetical, theoretical-only possibility.

Why is it so hard to believe that there is a certain set of requirements, and if the seller does not meet them, it is out?

Now again, I don't have any inside info. So MAYBE the only plane that meets requirements is Rafale. Just maybe.

Last time, with DX, F-16 was out of the game. To the Russians, they said "we are looking for a single engine plane" and then Mig-29 was out. The funny thing is that Hornet has two engines, so maybe the Russians were a bit pissed off in the end. Mirage 2000 and Hornet were the only two contestants that met the requirements.

 

[Dawg-69]

I shall sum it up. I believe that this is LM's approach:

1. They believe that they will win anyways, as they are the "favourite"

2. Their operating costs are based on what they are HOPING to achieve in the future

And they are maybe a bit arrogant about the requirements, as they believe in (1) above.

Now what happens is that they are driving a square peg into a round hole. End result is the SAME as for f-16 last time around.

 

[Lolwa]

French plane is for nations that are not offered the F-35. Can you define "flexible foreign policy" because that could mean anything.

Well look at who all bought the Rafale. Egypt,Qatar,Greece and India. All use some amount of Russian hardware in a major way while they are also in good relations with the west. The Qataris are the only ones who are not using any Russian hardware but they do have a flexible foreign policy since they play against Saudis as well as Iran, while simultaneously cosying up with Israelis and use Al-Jazeera for propaganda against their opponents. French hardware is sanction free and matches up with American tech in most cases so buying it makes sense. Greece can buy the f35 so can the Qataris even India if it scraps the s400 deal.

Then why not "grip" them to select other weapon systems like M1 tanks and M2/3 Bradley's? Why does the US only have a "grip" on them when it comes to the F-35? Why not naval ships?

Obviously look at the f-15k slam eagle deal and claims of U.S lobbying to force the Koreans to buy the f-15.
Also M1 tanks or Bradley's don't give the amount of strategic overreach that f-35 does. M1 and Bradley's are 30 year old hardware with no big tech jumps unlike the f-35.
U.S naval ships are literally crown jewel tech they far far more valuable than the f35. I doubt the Americans will give zumwalt design to any of its allies(provided they can afford it in the first place.) The only ones using American naval hardware are the Koreans and Japanese who are both basically glorified American colonies. With naval radars and sm6 missiles. America won't even share that tech with any of its other partners

Those soviet era weapons were bought during a different time when Finland was actually different country than it is today. There was an actual limit to what Finland could buy and tried to keep the peace by buying western and soviet and a week before Germany united Finland declared this treaty forced on them no longer active. Their first purchase of advanced weapon systems were F-18's.

Finland still uses a lot of Soviet hardware with Finnish characteristics. Most of their army uses Soviet ammunition incase of a Russian expansion. On surface they might look western but they still continue to have a lot of Russian influences in their mil (not their air force

. "Logical" vs "good buy?" What does that even mean?

Since they are already using f18 they can transfer their American munitions to the f35 unlike for the Rafale. If it's cheap all the better though I doubt it will be cheaper to maintain than the Rafale.
Buying the Rafale basically makes all their previous American munitions useless and they will have to depend on their f18's . The Finn's will have to take up unnecessary integration costs which won't be required for the f35.

F-35 doesn't offer a psychological deterrence it IS a deterrence because of its capabilities that the french plane can't even match.

Rafale's can supercruise, f-35's cannot. Rafale can carry similar maximum payloads of munitions (neither the the typhoon or the gripen are capable of that). It's much more maintenance friendly than the f-35.
The f-35 does out do it in stealth and avionics with a bigger radar. But stealth is yet to be properly tested. Even though the concept has existed since the 90's

F-35 has become an unstoppable snowball effect in Europe (Like sunstersun said/paraphrase) with more Euro nations buying it the F-35 becomes cheaper, parts more available and easier to train because of the many Euro nations flying it.

Mostly smaller euro-players but yeah. F-35 is a step up over the eurocanards in every way except flight performance.

 

[Dawg-69]

Since they are already using f18 they can transfer their American munitions to the f35 unlike for the Rafale. If it's cheap all the better though I doubt it will be cheaper to maintain than the Rafale.
Buying the Rafale basically makes all their previous American munitions useless and they will have to depend on their f18's . The Finn's will have to take up unnecessary integration costs which won't be required for the f35.

Well, yes and no. Puranen has been saying that the weapons don't matter. AMRAAMs can go into NASAMS. Many of the weapons on the Hornets are going old anyways. I think it won't be hard to mothball some Hornets for two or three years - then if need arises, they can fly restricted to 5G and launch JASSMs. And then the JASSMs will expire anyways. They only have a finite shelf life.

 

[Dawg-69]

Mostly smaller euro-players but yeah. F-35 is a step up over the eurocanards in every way except flight performance.

Oh, there is another thing... European missiles are superior. IRIS-T is pretty much the best close-range missile there is. ASRAAM is maybe the fastest A2A missile. Meteor is also "the best", and could prove to be one of the decisive factors in HX.

MICA is very interesting but it seems to me that it's quite expensive. All of this stuff is expensive.

IRIS-T can also be used as an anti-missile missile against incoming A2A missiles, but no-one knows just how well it would perform and what is the kill ratio in such use.

 

[Lolwa]

Oh, there is another thing... European missiles are superior. IRIS-T is pretty much the best close-range missile there is. ASRAAM is maybe the fastest A2A missile. Meteor is also "the best", and could prove to be one of the decisive factors in HX.

MICA is very interesting but it seems to me that it's quite expensive. All of this stuff is expensive.

IRIS-T can also be used as an anti-missile missile against incoming A2A missiles, but no-one knows just how well it would perform and what is the kill ratio in such use.

The problem is meteor and asraam can be easily integrated to the f-35 as seen from the u.k and Italian f-35's. So the only real advantage eurocanards have is lost because of this. Otherwise f-35 is actually inferior to eurocanards in terms of a2a funnily enough.

Well, yes and no. Puranen has been saying that the weapons don't matter. AMRAAMs can go into NASAMS. Many of the weapons on the Hornets are going old anyways. I think it won't be hard to mothball some Hornets for two or three years - then if need arises, they can fly restricted to 5G and launch JASSMs. And then the JASSMs will expire anyways. They only have a finite shelf life.

Or the JASSM's can just be transferred to the f-35. Rafale does add up unnecessary training and integration costs which I don't know if the Finn's will be interested in. With f-35 it's only training for the system and rest of the weapon's portfolio remains similar to the hornet.