You can't out "agile" a 50+G missile you can jam it or spoof it but you can't outmaneuver it.
Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions
- Thread starter Herciv
- Start date
-
- Tags
- indian defence forum
You can't out "agile" a 50+G missile you can jam it or spoof it but you can't outmaneuver it.
Well I have never tried it myself, but from what I read, it is possible. Here is a good answer from Quora - this guy was in the USAF:
"Just about any missile can be defeated if the pilot sees it in time. The problem then becomes the second or third missile that he either doesn’t see or doesn’t have the energy left to defeat after maneuvering against the first missile. While missiles can pull a lot more G’s than a fighter, they go extremely fast so a fighter is able to turn inside it’s corner capability. If he times his maneuver well, the missile overshoots and misses."
SAMs especially the older ones don't have the 50+G threshold or good enough seeker as for todays air to air good luck out maneuvering it alone however maneuvering with EW/ECM and flares is survivable. But being agile is not going to save you.
The US was amongst the last major air forces to get a helmet like the JHMCS. The Soviet Union got it first followed by India back in the early 80s. Everybody else got it later on, and the US got it only in the 2000s, 20 years after the SU and India did. The JHMCS is a derivative of the Israeli DASH III, so there was also a DASH I and DASH II.
The F-22 itself lacks such a helmet. The F-35 won't be carrying WVR missiles in stealth missions, so it cannot use it anyway.
Nope. There's nothing stealthy about the 9x. If the F-35 puts it on, it loses stealth completely. It's gonna be no different than a Typhoon.
The F-35 is better than the F-16, but there's nothing impressive about being better than the F-16 anymore. More modern jets are way, way better than the F-16. Like the Su-30MKI has unlimited AoA. The Rafale's AoA is 100 deg without limitations, that's 4 times that of the F-16, and twice that of the SH. And so on.
Dog fighting is part of WVR. You start off with your WVR missiles first, and then go in for the kill using cannons once the missiles are expended. But the F-35 won't be carrying 9x during stealth missions. Or you can remove the 120s to carry the 9x internally, but you are most definitely sacrificing BVR capablity in the process. As long as you want stealth, the F-35 has to choose between BVR and WVR.
You missed the point entirely. What you are saying here will exactly be the arguments you will make once these exercises begin. You wanna keep claiming agility is irrelevant, go ahead. You wanna keep claiming the F-35 is better than the Rafale, Typhoon, Gripen etc, go ahead, but don't come back crying when things do not go your way when it's actually tested.
But how capable really are BVR weapons in real world conditions? What happens if, due to the use of lasers and other countermeasures, missiles are rendered useless? Jammers could confuse RF seekers, lasers can destroy IR seekers, they can even destroy missile fins relatively quickly. The only leftover option is the gun and the laser itself, so you are reduced to fighting World Wars/Start Wars style in the end. So you should be asking yourself if the F-35 is really suited for this type of combat. Being better than the F-16 simply isn't good enough.
This is what your own experts have to say.
Why the F-35 Isn’t Good Enough for Japan
Tokyo looks to American and indigenous alternatives as a result of the joint strike fighter’s shortcomings.
thediplomat.com
Agility is irrelevant to the F-35 because it simply doesn't perform the role where agility is required.
And your point is..? What does this have to do with what the F-22/F-35 pilot saying SA is life and not agility?
Lol. If you think two external 9x gives the F-35 the RCS of a (and i'll be generous to you) clean Typhoon, you sir are a dumb dumb. F-35 with two external 9x is still very LO. No F-35 doing SEAD/DEAD will carry anything external and no F-35 penetrating contested enemy airspace will carry anything external. What scenario in a conflict would F-35s carry 9x missiles... who knows.
If any 4th gen fighter had the avionics of the F-35 like EODAS, Barracuda-EW, Apg-81 and its superior SA/Sensor Fusion that 4th gen fighter would still get the first look and first shot against any latest Eurocanard fighter.
Well congratulations to the french plane to be able to do a post stall 100 degree AoA in a clean configuration but in air to air mode Dassault claims that it can achieve 29°.
FLIGHT TEST: Dassault Rafale - Rampant Rafale
Flight International test pilot Peter Collins is the first Briton to fly Dassault's F3-standard Rafale. Read his exclusive evaluation of the 'omnirole' type ...
www.flightglobal.com
Nothing impressive yet it is the F-35 that gets selected over the french plane.
F-35 won't be sacrificing anything in air to air role since the Aim-120c7 & D are HOB missiles with 30-40G load. It was an Aim-120D that shot down an SU-22 over Syria by F-18E after the SU-22 spoofed the 9x. F-18E was so close when it fired its Aim-120D that it had to do a fast evasive maneuver to avoid the exploding debris cloud.
Yeah agility is irrelevant in combat when modern fighters, except french plane, have JHMCS and 90 degree HOB 9x missiles with BVR-ish capabilities.
And why would I come back crying over a combat exercise where T-38s and F-5s kill F-15s, F-16s, F-35s and F-18s with JHMCS? F-22s with thrust vectoring have lost against T38s in dogfights.
Lol. Wow you really had to reach in your what if bag of scenarios that don't exist in order to put the F-35 in a disadvantaged. I can do that too with the F-35 having a """laser""" in a decade. But I'll stick to reality in my scenario where enemy fighters, that are being hunted by wolfpack of F-35s, who have no clue they are being hunted start panicking and sh*tting themselves when their buddies start exploding and not knowing why they are exploding since their RWR's aren't warning them of incoming missiles. You know why their RWRs are not warning them of incoming missiles..? Because of EODAS where its IRST is able to provide passive guidance to a radar guided BVR missile.
This is what your own experts have to say.
U.S. military officials and numerous think tanks have repeatedly stressed that the F-35 is not an air superiority platform and cannot replace the F-15. Former Air Force chief of staff General Mark Welsh stated that the F-35 “was never designed to be the next dog fighting machine. It was designed to be the multipurpose, data-integration platform that could do all kinds of things in the air-to-ground arena including dismantle enemy, integrated, air defenses. It had an air-to-air capability, but it was not intended to be an air-superiority fighter. That was the F-22.” Air Combat Command chief General Mike Hostage similarly stated regarding the F-35’s lack of air superiority capabilities: “If I do not keep that F-22 fleet viable, the F-35 fleet frankly will be irrelevant. The F-35 is not built as an air superiority platform. It needs the F-22.” Stressing the Raptor’s importance, Hostage predicted that, while the F-35 was unsuitable for an air superiority role, the F-15 would be obsolete by 2024.Why the F-35 Isn’t Good Enough for Japan
Tokyo looks to American and indigenous alternatives as a result of the joint strike fighter’s shortcomings.thediplomat.com
Agility is irrelevant to the F-35 because it simply doesn't perform the role where agility is required.
Lol. A 2018 article when at the time there was a debate to fund the F-15c's upgrades... guess what happened there?
This is what pilots who fly the F-35 and used to fly F-15c and F-16 think.
30 live interceptions of armed Russian jets during carrier group aircraft operations in the Mediterranean
23 Oct 2021 NavyLookout
"...Cdre Steve Moorhouse was speaking from HMS Queen Elizabeth in the Indian Ocean, via a recorded message to the Pacific Future Forum event held on HMS Prince of Wales in Portsmouth. He said that while operating in the Eastern Mediterranean, jets from his flagship had been launched to conduct missions over the Black Sea which involved flying a round trip of “well over 1,000 miles”. These flights were conducted simultaneously with the first carrier-based combat sorties flown against Daesh.
Assuming they passed through Turkish airspace, missions to the Black Sea were almost certainly supported by air-air refuelling as 1,000 miles is the maximum extent of F-35B range. To have significance, the aircraft would need to perform at least a brief patrol in the area. Returning to the carrier flying on ‘fumes’ is a risk that would be usually avoided for a non-combat mission. It is worth noting that, despite critics complaints about the ‘short legs’ of the F-35B, it has more than double the range of the legacy Sea Harrier FA2 (c460 miles)....
...On 12th June two F-35 Jets flying from HMS Queen Elizabeth took off to conduct missions against Daesh in Syria and Iraq. This was the first strike mission from a Royal Navy vessel since the operations in Libya during 2011. In a two-week period, there were 30 live intercepts of armed Russian fighter and bomber aircraft. Sukhois and Migs came within visual range of aircraft flying from the ship. Moorhouse added that two jets were held at readiness on deck during this period, ready to respond to any Russian air incursions or over[f]lights. The critical importance for the fleet to have its own organic air cover available for all kinds of naval operations is often overlooked when the main focus is usually on the strike element of carrier capability....
...Unintentionally the Russians helped build confidence and test the CSG in a way that no pre-panned exercise ever could. Moorhouse added that: “The high tempo operations in the face of a competing and challenging adversary provided the foundation from which the strike group could prepare for operations the unfamiliar, but equally contested seas of the Indo-Pacific”."
Last edited:
The 9x will increase the F-35's RCS to that of a Typhoon. It's 0.0001m2 + 0.1m2 = 0.1001m2, ie 0.1m2. That's how it works. 2 9x's means 0.2m2. Add two more external payloads worth 0.5m2, you get 0.2+0.5+0.5 = 1.2m2. You touch those external points, you lose stealth. That's how simple the concept it. You wanna maintain your VLO status with external missiles, then you need the missiles also to be VLO, which the 9x is not.
Well congratulations to the french plane to be able to do a post stall 100 degree AoA in a clean configuration but in air to air mode Dassault claims that it can achieve 29°.
FLIGHT TEST: Dassault Rafale - Rampant Rafale
Flight International test pilot Peter Collins is the first Briton to fly Dassault's F3-standard Rafale. Read his exclusive evaluation of the 'omnirole' type ...
That's an AoA soft limitation, which a pilot can override whenever he wants to. The Rafale is limited to 9G too, but you have already seen videos and images with 10.5G. The F-16, otoh, has hard limitations, which means the pilot cannot override FCS limitations without turning off the FCS itself.
Nothing impressive yet it is the F-35 that gets selected over the french plane.
Didn't you get the memo? Apparently it's cheaper than other options. Anyway, large air forces are buying an alternative to the F-35 for air superiority, like Japan with the F-X and Turkey with the TF-X. They wouldn't need alternatives if the F-35 could do their job, eh? Smaller air forces either do not have that option or do not need it, because most F-35 customers, pretty much all in Europe, will have the USAF providing air superiority, if not the British or the French, and hence do not need it.
For future air options, including for the Finnish, the best option is not the F-35 for ground strike, but an air superiority aircraft in combination with stealth drones. Different story whether they can afford the combo.
You don't understand the concept behind carrying more missiles.
Dude, with every post you make you just keep showing your ignorance more and more. Which is why nobody here really takes you seriously. How dumb do you have to be to not understand that the F-35 would deplete its 120s in BVR combat before initiating WVR? Or are you saying the F-35's gonna keep its missiles only for WVR combat. See the problem now?
More dumb assertions. Contrary to what even the USAF believes in. But of course, you are an F-35 fanboy and anything that goes against the F-35 is the enemy, even if it is the USAF itself.
Remember what I said, you will need it in a few years.
I doubt you have a clue why the T-38s and F-5s outdo the F-22s during training.
I doubt you know what these systems are beyond their names.
Those are your own air force chiefs. Just more demonstration of your ignorance.
But of course, you are an F-35 fanboy and anything that goes against the F-35 is the enemy, even if it is the USAF itself.
Nothing special there. The Taiwanese do this every other day. It's normal. The Malaysians did it with a Hawk.
No, the Rafale aircraft can reach 100° AOA, this was achieved during the flight envelope opening tests, but the FCS of the production aircraft limits the AOA to 29° because there is no additional benefit to the aircraft's missions to go further. 29° is simply the optimum.Well congratulations to the french plane to be able to do a post stall 100 degree AoA in a clean configuration but in air to air mode Dassault claims that it can achieve 29°.
FLIGHT TEST: Dassault Rafale - Rampant Rafale
Flight International test pilot Peter Collins is the first Briton to fly Dassault's F3-standard Rafale. Read his exclusive evaluation of the 'omnirole' type ...
There's a video but it's in hindi. Basically for a plane to avoid a 40g capable missile the plane will have to pull a 4.5-5g turn. It's an equation
This is for a bvr missile but for wvr could be very similar.
I had a quick look at the video and it's all very interesting stuff, but of course I can not understand any of the Hindi.
When you start to fire several missiles at one target, it gets terrifyingly expensive very soon...! It is horrible to think about.
They were probably talking about it in the video, but I couldn't understand - how much easier is it possible to dodge missiles after their rocket motor goes off? The missile slows down, but it is still able to maneuvre.
When you start to fire several missiles at one target, it gets terrifyingly expensive very soon...! It is horrible to think about.
They were probably talking about it in the video, but I couldn't understand - how much easier is it possible to dodge missiles after their rocket motor goes off? The missile slows down, but it is still able to maneuvre.
Well, one must not look down on Swedish industry.
Because I am Finnish, I hear this all the time. The "True Finns" especially see Sweden as a completely moronic country where the military men put on make-up in the morning, police are "like children" (well that was actually my father saying that) and so on.
Granted, Sweden has a "feminist foreign policy" which makes it difficult to believe that they could be a good partner in war. But they do have a a very advanced industry.
It's the same as with France. Sweden also wanted to have an independent military industry during the cold war, so they made all sorts of products and then also sold them.
Here is one list where they show weapons sales per capita. There are many similar lists on the web and the order is usually a bit different, but the same countries are always near the top:
Countries Compared by Military > Conventional arms > Exports per capita. International Statistics at NationMaster.com
Conventional arms transfers (1990 prices) - Exports (US$ millions) Refers to the voluntary transfer by the supplier (and thus excludes captured weapons and weapons obtained through defectors) of weapons with a military purpose destined for the armed forces, paramilitary forces or intelligence...
www.nationmaster.com
Number one... Israel. This is quite logical:
2... Russia. OK;
3. France, interesting
4. Sweden. Who would have thought?
Another "peace-loving" country, Switzerland, is number 7.
USA at position 9. Of course, if you just compare total sales, then USA is number one.
-Here's another list with a slightly differend order, but Sweden actually third.
Peace-loving Sweden and Switzerland are among top arms exporters per capita in the world - The World from PRX
Their soldiers don't go to war, but their military equipment does.
www.pri.org
Last edited:
I think the swiss will be confortable for ten years, whith firm prices. After that it will probably be funny. I see a political crisis after that.
You're right, but it's true only inside the No Escape Zone. After that it depends....
And between the NEZ (a sensible data) and the max range more or less official, there is a huge gap.
It depends also of the speed of the missile and the speed of the plane.
40G at mach 2 got a sharper turn than 40G at mach 4
Very interesting link! And my favourite quote from the article is this one:FLIGHT TEST: Dassault Rafale - Rampant Rafale
Flight International test pilot Peter Collins is the first Briton to fly Dassault's F3-standard Rafale. Read his exclusive evaluation of the 'omnirole' type ...
Aah, now I see the connection. I am starting to connect the dots... I am a bit slow.
Does anybody know what the NEZ of MICA missiles would be?
That's out of the NEZ region. At that point it's pretty easy to dodge the missiles.
This guy is an American f18 pilot reacting to a short film of mirages dodging some SAM missiles (directed by some indie team based in India). Like around the 5 minute mark he starts mocking about how the missiles still maintains a lock and says dodging missiles is far easier unlike shown in the short film.
Thank you for praising the Rafale: indeed it has exceptional sensors and the Spectra electronic warfare system is several orders of magnitude superior to those of the F-35 and compensates for the difference in RCS between LO and VLO. The Rafale would therefore have similar survivability, as Spectra does not emit megawatts of jamming power, but performs intelligent jamming. In addition, the Rafale has automatic high-speed terrain-following modes that further increase its survivability. Networking is another thing that sets the Rafale apart from others. The F4.2 will have an LPI/LPD and a very high rate, low latency data link, which combined with its networked sensor fusion, gives it unrivalled SA.
Nope. And I just love how you pulled these numbers out of thin air since F-35 RCS isn't public.
F-35 has been pushed to 9.9Gs full fuel load and internal load.
Lol. F-35 is a superior air to air fighter by far than any 4th gen fighter.... which is what the Swiss report said.
F-35 puts the F-22 in a disadvantaged thanks to its sensors the only thing the F-22 does better than F-35 is speed and altitude. F-35 "beats" the F-22 in stealth.
Well you better hurry and go tell them that because they are about to select the F-35 because their evaluation, like the Swiss, brings them to the conclusion that the F-35 is the best choice for air superiority. I'm sure they'll be all ears to hear from a guy like you whos is an expert at forums.
In combat fighter don't carry a full load of missiles. During intercepts Russian and chicom flankers are seen with 4-6 missiles same with Eurocanards when they intercept Russian aircraft.You don't understand the concept behind carrying more missiles.
And when Turkey shot down an SU-24 Russian SU-30sm started escorting their bombers with 4 missiles.
Take a guess why in REAL combat 4th gen fighters carry only 4-6 missiles?
Swiss report doesn't think too highly about your french planes sensors so much so they didn't select it in fact they boasted about the F-35s sensors.
I never said those are the F-35's numbers. Those are just to teach you basics of how RCS works. The F-35 can't beat the laws of physics.
Yep. In test conditions, meant to touch the limits of the airframe. All airframes are rated to be much higher than 9G. But the Rafale does it regularly, not in test conditions.
Spoken like a true hillbilly. If you do not understand the concept, naturally you will make an ignorant statement.
Nevertheless the F-22 will win in an A2A fight. Because having sensors and stealth alone aren't enough.
Sure. Even I think the F-35 will win, because the Finnish are not looking at the long term like bigger air forces can, nor are some technologies available for export. So they can only work with the best they can get at any particular time. Plus they are working with a budget. Even the USAF agrees having only the F-35 isn't the way to go. Which is why it still forms the low end of the force. Hence the hurry to develop the NGAD since the Russians and Chinese are soon going to get their own F-35 killer.
Lol. That's exactly my point. 4+2/2+2 are the standard loadouts for BVR+WVR. And this is exactly what the F-35 misses out on, with just 2+2/2.
The F-22 carries 4/6+2 in A2A and 2+2 in A2G. One of the reasons why it's an air superiority fighter.
It doesn't matter. The Swiss contest was based on cost. And the contest was based on a version of Rafale half a decade older than the F-35. Even if the Rafale was better, the F-35 would have won based on cost anyway.
You pulled numbers out of your butt thinking what the RCS increase is of two 9x missiles on a stealth fighter... nuff said. You're fool of yourself.
Regularly? Is that right? Please post a link. Maybe that is why the french plane has a 63% mission capable rate?
Seems you have trouble understanding that the Swiss report boast the F-35's superior air to air capability compared to the french plane.
Spoken like a person who still lives in the past or whos nation can't afford the latest most advanced fighter. SA is life and those that fly 4th gen fighters and transition to the F-35 understand it. Those that listen to these fighter pilots also understand it but people like you will never understand until India flies the F-35 after the IAF gets their *censored* handed to them by chicom air force and their stealth fighters.
As for F-22 beating the F-35... not when the F-35 can see the F-22 first since the F-35 is stealthier and better sensors. F-35 apg-81 was able to jam and F-22 and jamming an F-22 is pretty much an impossible task... at least for 4th gen fighters.
I had no idea Finnish defense officials briefed you on what their long term is... or did you read their minds?
USAF's budget is almost as big as China's defense budget the USAF has never had just one fighter that can do the same job and never will, same with the USN. If politics and special interest didn't exist many USAF 4th gen fighters would start being replaced by the F-35.
F-15EX was forced on the USAF there's nothing the F-15EX can do that the F-35 can do a whole lot better.
The point is chicom fighters carry only 4 missiles and Russia carry 4 or 6 which is understandable since Russian air to air missiles are not as advanced and reliable. Only their "latest" russian flankers carry 4 missiles during intercept or escort due to drag and weight.
F-15s stationed off Iceland only carried 4 missiles during intercept missions in combat fighters will not be carrying 8 or more missiles. Btw F-35 block 4 will carry 6 Aim-120s and drag will not be an issue like the french plane and other 4th gen fighters.
It's called an air superiority fighter because that was its only role you dope! Same with F-15c and F-14. Oy vey.
Seems like you didn't read the Swiss report. Cost was a part of it and if the F-35's cost was exactly the same as the french plane they'd still select the F-35 because of its SUPERIORITY in the air to air realm that the french plane can't match.