Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[Innominate]

Rafale empty weight --> 21,720 lb
Rafale maximum internal fuel load --> 10,400 lb
Rafale full weight (empty + maximum internal fuel load) --> 32,120 lb

Rafale engine max thrust AB --> 2 x 16,860 lbf --> 33,720 lbf
Rafale TWR --> 1.05


F-35 empty weight --> 29,098 lb
F-35 internal fuel load EQUAL TO THE RAFALE MAX INTERNAL FUEL --> 10,400 lb
F-35 full weight (empty + internal fuel load) --> 39,498 lb

F-35 engine max thrust AB --> 43,000 lbf
F-35 TWR --> 1.09

So with the SAME FUEL LOAD, the F-35 has a slight TWR advantage over the Rafale!
Moreover the F-35 can STILL REACH FARTHER (longer range) than the Rafale with the SAME FUEL LOAD since the F-35 has only one engine (and more advanced) while the Rafale has two engines and as such the fuel consumption of the F-35 is much more efficient!"

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Rafale empty weight --> 21,720 lb
Rafale maximum internal fuel load --> 10,400 lb
Rafale full weight (empty + maximum internal fuel load) --> 32,120 lb

Rafale engine max thrust AB --> 2 x 16,860 lbf --> 33,720 lbf
Rafale TWR --> 1.05


F-35 empty weight --> 29,098 lb
F-35 internal fuel load EQUAL TO THE RAFALE MAX INTERNAL FUEL --> 10,400 lb

So if F-35 was 300,000 lb you will still add only 10,400 lb of fuel ? you need more thrust for more weight and more thrust => more fuel
This is so elementary that it is really laughable to see you repeat this nonsense.

F-35 full weight (empty + internal fuel load) --> 39,498 lb

F-35 engine max thrust AB --> 43,000 lbf
F-35 TWR --> 1.09

So with the SAME FUEL LOAD, the F-35 has a slight TWR advantage over the Rafale!
Moreover the F-35 can STILL REACH FARTHER (longer range) than the Rafale with the SAME FUEL LOAD since the F-35 has only one engine (and more advanced) while the Rafale has two engines and as such the fuel consumption of the F-35 is much more efficient!"

It's quite the opposite: by definition for a given thrust the consumption is a function of the specific consumption, but the specific consumption of the M 88 is better than that of the F-135, i.e. it induces a lower consumption for the same thrust, and moreover the F-35 needs a stronger thrust, so you are making a fool of yourself.

View attachment 21807

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

I'm going to bed because I can't make the right calculations: I found an index of 41 for the 2000 l tank of the Rafale when it should be 27 but I can't find the error.

 

[Innominate]

So if F-35 was 300,000 lb you will still add only 10,400 lb of fuel ? you need more thrust for more weight and more thrust => more fuel
This is so elementary that it is really laughable to see you repeat this nonsense.

It's quite the opposite: by definition for a given thrust the consumption is a function of the specific consumption, but the specific consumption of the M 88 is better than that of the F-135, i.e. it induces a lower consumption for the same thrust, and moreover the F-35 needs a stronger thrust, so you are making a fool of yourself.

"Rafale empty weight --> 21,720 lb
Rafale maximum internal fuel load --> 10,400 lb
Rafale full weight (empty + maximum internal fuel load) --> 32,120 lb

Rafale engine max thrust AB --> 2 x 16,860 lbf --> 33,720 lbf
Rafale TWR --> 1.05


F-35 empty weight --> 29,098 lb
F-35 internal fuel load EQUAL TO THE RAFALE MAX INTERNAL FUEL --> 10,400 lb
F-35 full weight (empty + internal fuel load) --> 39,498 lb

F-35 engine max thrust AB --> 43,000 lbf
F-35 TWR --> 1.09

So with the SAME FUEL LOAD, the F-35 has a slight TWR advantage over the Rafale!
Moreover the F-35 can STILL REACH FARTHER (longer range) than the Rafale with the SAME FUEL LOAD since the F-35 has only one engine (and more advanced) while the Rafale has two engines and as such the fuel consumption of the F-35 is much more efficient!"

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

We consider a smooth Rafale

Its range with full fuel is noted X in km and full fuel is noted Y in litre

The consumption to cover 1km is therefore Z=Y/X

We now consider a Rafale with three tanks, each containing 2000 litres of fuel. The total quantity of fuel is therefore 6000 litres which we will note down as 2y, y representing a virtual tank of 3000 litres.

I have constructed a table to calculate the Index of these three tanks taken together, checking the numerical values as we go along.

Consumption to cover 1km	Z=Y/X	Z= 5750/2430	2.366
Range	R=(Y+y)/Z	R= 8750/2.366	3700
Consumption for 1 km with tanks	Z1 = (Y+2y)/((Y+y)/Z).	Z1= 11750/3700	3.1757
Increase of consumption	Z1-Z = (Y+2y)/((Y+y)/Z) - Z =Z(Y+2y)/(Y+y)-Z= Z(1-1 +y/(Y+y))	Z1-Z= Zy/(Y+y)=y/R	3000/3700=0.81081
Increase of the index	159*(Z1-Z)/Z	159*(y/R)/Z= 159*(y/(Y+y)/Z/Z =159*y/(Y+y)	159*3000/8750=54.5143
index for one drop tank 2000 l	159*y/3*(Y+y)	53*y/(Y+y)	53*3000/8750=18.1714
index for one drop tank 1250 l		53*y/(Y+y) with y=1250*3/2	53*1875/7625= 13.032

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Let's start using all this:
We start with the air superiority mode of the Rafale which is represented by a drawing where the Rafale is carrying 3 tanks of 2000 l and six Mica. The drawing shows a combat radius of 920 NM

We must first evaluate the drag index of the MICA, for that we will take that of the AIM 9L which we will modify in proportion to the mass
MICA mass = 112 Kg
Mass AIM 9L = 85.3 Kg
MICA index = 3*112/85.3= 3.9

Index of the Rafale configuration:
159 + 6* 3.9 + 3* 18.1714 = 159 + 23 + 54.51 = 236.51

It was calculated that the smooth Rafale had a range of 2430 km so if its drag was not changed with 6000 l more its range would be:
2430 * (6000 + 5750)/ 5750 = 4966 km, but we have to take into account its drag index which goes from 159 to 236.51, so we have a corrected range of 4966*159/236.51 = 3229.3 which makes a combat radius of 901 Nm. (It's less than the 920 of the Brasilian picture)

In time of war it is necessary to release the drop tanks.
In this hypothesis the index of the drop tanks is divided by two which gives for the configuration 159 + 23 + 27.25 = 209.25 and thus a corrected autonomy of 4966*159/209.25 = 3773.5 which makes a combat radius of 1018 Nm.

 

[vstol Jockey]

It was calculated that the smooth Rafale had a range of 2430 km so if its drag was not changed with 6000 l more its range would be:
2430 * (6000 + 5750)/ 5750 = 4966 km, but we have to take into account its drag index which goes from 159 to 236.51, so we have a corrected range of 4966*159/236.51 = 3229.3 which makes a combat radius of 901 Nm. (It's less than the 920 of the Brasilian picture)

You are not wrong. The basic drag index will reduce as the fuel is burnt, so the range of 920NM is correct.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Yes, by all means do a comparison of the Rafale and the F-35 with 2x 2,000lb, let me know how it goes.

I'm going to use the attack configuration shown in the Brazilian picture, replacing the 6 AASMs with 2 GBU 24.
We have the index of the configuration which is:

159 + 2*12.2 + 4*3.9 + 3*18.1714 + Pod (265 kg diam 37 cm)

The pod is comparable to a GBU 12 in mass and diameter from the point of view of the bomb body because the 45 cm diameter only concerns the fins. We will therefore take an index equal to 4. This gives

159 + 24.4 + 15.6 + 54.51 + 4 = 257.51

It was calculated that the smooth Rafale had a range of 2430 km so if its drag was not changed with 6000 l more its range would be:
2430 * (6000 + 5750)/ 5750 = 4966 km, but we have to take into account its drag index which goes from 159 to 257.51, so we have a corrected range of 4966*159/257.51 = 3066.3 which makes a combat radius of 828 Nm which is more than the 790 Nm of the Brasilian picture (It seems that the GBU 24 drags less than 3 AASM on its triple support)

 

[vstol Jockey]

I'm going to use the attack configuration shown in the Brazilian picture, replacing the 6 AASMs with 2 GBU 24.
We have the index of the configuration which is:

159 + 2*12.2 + 4*3.9 + 3*18.1714 + Pod (265 kg diam 37 cm)

The pod is comparable to a GBU 12 in mass and diameter from the point of view of the bomb body because the 45 cm diameter only concerns the fins. We will therefore take an index equal to 4. This gives

159 + 24.4 + 15.6 + 54.51 + 4 = 257.51

It was calculated that the smooth Rafale had a range of 2430 km so if its drag was not changed with 6000 l more its range would be:
2430 * (6000 + 5750)/ 5750 = 4966 km, but we have to take into account its drag index which goes from 159 to 257.51, so we have a corrected range of 4966*159/257.51 = 3066.3 which makes a combat radius of 828 Nm which is more than the 790 Nm of the Brasilian picture (It seems that the GBU 24 drags less than 3 AASM on its triple support)

I agree with you as the configuration accepts the D/Ts still being attached to the aircraft. Once clean and D/ts dropped, the drag will reduce further. The combat Radius as defined in that evaluation does not specify it. I assume that the aircraft returns back with D/Ts.

 

[Tatvamasi]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1457176032566337536

 

[Optimist]

You aren't really doing a ferry range configuration for the Rafale, are you?
Just for something relevant. The F-35a fuel fraction, with 2x2,000lb. Would you like to do the same for the Rafale?
29,300 empty weight + 18,250 internal fuel + 8,000lb external fuel (I didn't add drop tank weight) + 5,000lb for 2x2,000 and 1,000 for missiles = 60,550 total, 26,250 fuel = .434

Fuel fraction - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

You aren't really doing a ferry range configuration for the Rafale, are you?
Just for something relevant. The F-35a fuel fraction, with 2x2,000lb. Would you like to do the same for the Rafale?
29,300 empty weight + 18,250 internal fuel + 8,000lb external fuel (I didn't add drop tank weight) + 5,000lb for 2x2,000 and 1,000 for missiles = 60,550 total, 26,250 fuel = .434

Fuel fraction - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If you want to get a really good configuration you can do it like this:
Rafale C
Empty weight 9850 Kg
Internal fuel 4700 Kg
External fuel: 4 tanks of 1250l => 4000 Kg + 320kg for the tanks and 1 ventral tank of 2000l => 1600 Kg + 100 kg for the tank i.e. a total of 6020Kg including 5600 kg of fuel
Bomb 2000Kg
Missile 500kg
Total External Load: 8520 Below the Maximum of 9500
Total mass 23070
Total fuel 10300
Fuel fraction: 0.4465
But it makes no sense to ignore the fact that external fuel loads induce drag.

 

[Optimist]

Needs to be the same..2x 1,000kg bombs and some missiles please. They take up 2x 2,000 litre station and the outer station
I'll give you 2x 1250 litre wing. 2,000 or 3,000 litre center tank. The 3,000 litre center tank isn't cleared for the Rafale, is it? I haven't seen it in use.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Needs to be the same..2x2,000lb bombs and some missiles please.
I'll give you a 2,000 litre center tank and 2x 1250 litre wing. The 3,000 litre center tank isn't cleared for the Rafale, is it? I haven't seen it in use.

For bombs : 2000 kg is 4410 Lbs => the same!
For missiles : 500 kg is 1100 lbs same as you
Total weapons 5510 against 6000 for you but you didn't count Tank mass and I count 420 kg or 926 lb.
The Rafale has 5 wet points all capable of accommodating the 2000 l tanks but you have to make sure that you don't exceed the maximum load of 9500kg and if you count 1700 kg for one tank that makes 8500 kg for 5 and there is almost nothing left for the payload, that's why I used 4 tanks of 1250 l.
I did not use a 3000 l tank.

 

[Optimist]

You can use the 3,000 liter if it is cleared. I think you need as much as you can get. The chart shows 3x 2000 litre wet points. The 2 outer are 1250 litre. The 2 x 1,000kg bombs, will take up 2 of the 2,000 litre wet points.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

You can use the 3,000 liter if it is cleared. I think you need as much as you can get. The chart shows 3x 2000 litre wet points. The 2 outer are 1250 litre. The 2 x 1,000kg bombs, will take up 2 of the 2,000 litre wet points.

No the outer point can acomodate SCALP missile with a weight of 1300kg = 2900 lb

​

Which increase the range by 560 km

 

[Optimist]

That may well be the case for the Scalp. If you wish to challenge the chart. You will need a link, to show that chart is wrong for the 1,000kg LG bomb. It also clearly shows the outer stations are only cleared for 1250lt tanks.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

That may well be the case for the Scalp. If you wish to challenge the chart. You will need a link, to show that chart is wrong for the 1,000kg LG bomb. It also clearly shows the outer stations are only cleared for 1250lt tanks.

Your chart is very old and false

​

Point 2 and 13 are not yet open but will be open with F4, There are also able to carry Meteor but need test for that.
Point 7-8 are also able to carry SCALP.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

https://military-wiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Rafale.jpg

AASM 1000 (1000kg) in test for F4.

 

[Optimist]

ok, I don't want to make this too hard. I'm not even asking the Rafale to carry 4x 2,000lb, like the F-35, with the 2 tanks. Lets use F4, is that picture 1,000kg, they look like 500kg.