Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

yes. And Sancho, add Canada and Morocco for the replaement of their refurbished Mirage F1

LM is apparently already marketing the B70 in Morocco, Canada remains a prime US partner, so I wouldn't expect too much changes there.
But the fact remains, that Rafales export chances took some more hits and another political deal seems to be the only hope.
 
Because motabhai & chottabhai are greasing the wheels of the BJP.. No personal corruption here, unlike the Congress ( Mukesh Ambani - Congress to apni hi dukaan hain - courtesy Radia tapes). But yes, RIL Was initialy chosen by DA cos of their clout. Further, in this partnership DA gets to dictate terms. Which means there'd be no ToT (and thank God for it & for the offsets) but plain old HAL style screwdriver role as in the golden old days of Soviet partnership. Which in turn means that Ambani continues to be the trader and not the technocrat MII seeks.

At some point fraternal ties got the better of business and chota bhai came in for mota bhai. I wonder why are you so surprised. After all, this is India.

All private companies have started off with screwdriver work in fact. All companies. But DRAL will become lead integrator of some Falcon models pretty early on. But there will be ToT.

As for creating their own IP, that will be a long term agenda. For now they probably plan on getting enough experience so that they can start bidding for major DRDO led projects on their own, like other more established private companies are already doing.
 
As I said, facts aren't part of the debate.

Remember how you also got suckered into believing Reliance is getting the entire 30,000Cr offsets contract, when they are actually getting only a piddly 850Cr contract, alongside dozens of other companies instead? And Reliance has to shell out 51% of that 850Cr after that.
YOU POSTED THAT AS AN ARGUMENT.

On what basis should there be a JPC? You want to start JPC because Reliance is getting a 850 Cr contract in a total deal worth 59000 Cr?

EX French president's allegations, Transfer of Feasibility analysis,

If JPCs are started based purely on allegations, then nothing will ever happen.

Dassault has also openly clarified that they chose Reliance for Falcon. Any foreign company can tie up with any Indian company. Why should that right be taken away only in this case? The Falcon has nothing to do with Rafale anyway.

Do you wonder why such allegations haven't surfaced against K9 - Vajra wth Samsung Techwin?

Every one can clamor as much as they want. that RIL is substituted by ADAG, it does not make any whatsoever business sense unless there was pressure from modi saab to favor Anil bhai.
 
YOU POSTED THAT AS AN ARGUMENT.

Whatchu talking about?

EX French president's allegations, Transfer of Feasibility analysis,

It's incorrect. He was talking about his own govt. Not Dassault.

We know that Reliance is getting only a 850Cr contract with Dassault.

Do you wonder why such allegations haven't surfaced against K9 - Vajra wth Samsung Techwin?

I can ask you the same about Reliance Thales JV then.

Every one can clamor as much as they want. that RIL is substituted by ADAG, it does not make any whatsoever business sense unless there was pressure from modi saab to favor Anil bhai.

For 850 Cr?
 
Yes, if you look at fuel consumption and maintenance costs on the engines only. What makes F35 so costly to operate as a whole, is the stealth part.

It also can be cheaper to procure, because higher numbers of engines, increase the unit cost. But here again, it's the advanced coatings, materials and techs, that will add up costs for F35.

Bottom line is, "if" (because I couldn't find an alternative source for that news) Switzerland decidedes to limit the tender to single engine fighters for cost reason, the fight might be more between Gripen E and F16 B70, unless they ignore the operational costs of the F35 too.

Do you think a huge single engine F35, with its 18T engine, its aero of a truck, to consum less than a Rafale? Sure not.
The %loss of a single engine plane is also higher.

And NO, switzerland didn't chose to restrict its choice to SE. It's only an idea.... the same that when some said Rafale will never be purchased by India.

And if the cost is the sole driver, the winner is well known : Gripen E. No way F35 to be chosed according to that parameter. And Gripen come fram a non aligned country, like Switzerland : a good choice.
 
LM is apparently already marketing the B70 in Morocco, Canada remains a prime US partner, so I wouldn't expect too much changes there.
But the fact remains, that Rafales export chances took some more hits and another political deal seems to be the only hope.
F16 bk 70 in Morocco ? No. They want a better plane so as to be on par with Algerian Su.
It's the Rafale hour in Morocco. This time there will be no mistake between the french bureaucraty and Dassault.
 
Whatchu talking about?

30K cr was the offset clause not DRAL's share, Dassault's offset value was 6500 cr, out of which I asked to make financial breakdown public.
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It's incorrect. He was talking about his own govt. Not Dassault.
Could be, why doesn't Anil Ambani sue him for 5000 cr? what stops him?
Anil Ambani's Reliance Sues NDTV For 10,000 Crores For Rafale Coverage

Is there are a rebuttal of Hollande's statement by France?

We know that Reliance is getting only a 850Cr contract with Dassault.
Across the life cycle of the sub-systems it will make through this offset program?

I can ask you the same about Reliance Thales JV then.
Is it already set up?

For 850 Cr?

Anil Ambani is thief, if this is a Amar Singh Rcom type quid pro quo, then there is no reason to suspect that large sums of money would be given as bribes from functioning of DRAL just like it happened with Rcom.
 
The problem however is not why Reliance was chosen, but if the PM in Paris 2015, insisted on Reliance, because that would be preferring a specific Indian company and therefore cronyism!

Since Dassaults CEO Trappier stated, that he wasn't part of talks in Paris and was informed of the deal only after things were done by the government's, his / Dassault's statements of choosing Reliance later, are meaningless.
Its a big if. What happened in Paris was nothing more than a MoU not deal. The actual deal had gone through all the required process and negotiations.

And how can this govt insist on a partner when DPP-2016 says it's up to the company?. Even if there were, Why would Dassault obey when the ball is in their court (after the announcement)? A case for actual corruption is very low as against the perception which the opposition taking full advantage.
 
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Yes there is a rebuttal of Hollande's statement by......Dassault! done the day after the statement.
So Hollande (ex head of state) makes an acquisition of Quid pro quo in a G2G deal; and Dassault one of the parties in that Quid Pro quo rebuts that acquisition. If there is any truth to hollande's acquisition, it makes Dassault party to such arrangement; Wouldn't it be prudent if the current Head of state or foreign affairs spokesperson clarified on hollande's comment. An accused party making claims of innocence can find barely any legal grounds if they are complicit in the the quid pro quo.
 
30K cr was the offset clause not DRAL's share, Dassault's offset value was 6500 cr, out of which I asked to make financial breakdown public.
View attachment 3551

Let's see once they actually finalise everything. That's all the way in late 2019.

Anyway, as I pointed out, the current discourse happening in public has nothing to do with facts. You want a JPC, that will only end more Rafales for India since Congress will only put more hurdles in front. This tirade is not anti-BJP or anti-corruption, it's literally anti-national. There is no common sense involved.

The reason why DRAL is in the crossfire is because theirs was the first JV in the deal, nothing else. And Reliance is a very soft target. They are being attacked for their merits, not their demerits.

Could be, why doesn't Anil Ambani sue him for 5000 cr? what stops him?
Anil Ambani's Reliance Sues NDTV For 10,000 Crores For Rafale Coverage

Is there are a rebuttal of Hollande's statement by France?

Sue him based on what? The others who got sued are in it for blatant defamation.

Hollande backtracked anyway. He later said that only Dassault can comment on the deal with Reliance. And then Dassault said that they chose Reliance without political pressure from any side. So his side of the story is now over.

Across the life cycle of the sub-systems it will make through this offset program?

All businesses connected with the program will make money. DRAL is a very tiny part of the entire deal. Only 3% of the overall offsets, and 10% of Dassault's share of the offsets.

How much money Reliance makes after is entirely dependent on how well they develop the Falcon market, which is entirely independent from MoD.

All this controversy for Rs 850Cr? Really?

Is it already set up?

Not sure. DRAL had a head start versus all other companies because of Dassault's initial discussions with Mukesh. All others have time until 2019.

Thales and Reliance Defence Limited to form Joint Venture | Thales Group

Anil Ambani is thief, if this is a Amar Singh Rcom type quid pro quo, then there is no reason to suspect that large sums of money would be given as bribes from functioning of DRAL just like it happened with Rcom.

Not to mention, Anil's company is the only company available today which has an airport. I can name one other, but it's still a secret. But Dassault wouldn't know about this company.
 
So Hollande (ex head of state) makes an acquisition of Quid pro quo in a G2G deal; and Dassault one of the parties in that Quid Pro quo rebuts that acquisition. If there is any truth to hollande's acquisition, it makes Dassault party to such arrangement; Wouldn't it be prudent if the current Head of state or foreign affairs spokesperson clarified on hollande's comment. An accused party making claims of innocence can find barely any legal grounds if they are complicit in the the quid pro quo.
Holland said something stupid, he's no longer head of state, his word has no official value anymore. If Trappier said that he chose Reliance, it's because he knows that the French government will confirm his statement, moreover the government spokesman has already confirmed it orally during a television show in France.
 
Hollande merely said that the French government did not choose who Dassault's industrial partners would be. He said that clumsily, but he never claimed, contrarily to what Indian media have printed, that Ambani's group was forced by the Indian government.

Dassault further clarified that they chose their partners independently.
 
Its a big if. What happened in Paris was nothing more than a MoU not deal. The actual deal had gone through all the required process and negotiations.

True, that's why I said we need confirmation on that, from French or Indian officials, that were present during the talks. Modi surely didn't talked to Hollande alone right?
But the fact at this point is, that such an allegation from the highest French official is very credible, while there was no response from the PM and even the press releases that followed, didn't stated that Hollande was wrong!

Being an MoU has nothing to do with the cronyism allegation, but it's just a convinient term the government used. MoUs are not as detailed as the Rafale deal announcement, nor are such deals usually done during foreign visits (as NDA officials confirmed ahead of the visit). What happened after that, was the contract negotiation part and not fixing the deal anymore and that then might had been done by the book, since MoD was involved the. The question however were about the procedures "ahead" of the announcement and the government always tried to avoid answering that. Let's see if SC or CAG can find out why?

And how can this govt insist on a partner when DPP-2016 says it's up to the company?

Because there was no tender, where Dassault and Co, needed to reply to an RFP, that was bound to DPP rules [not that Dassault cares much about DPP rules anyway].
This was a single vendor deal, as a result of G2G talks, so the PM could have proposed to buy 36 fighters off the shelf, with Reliance as the main offset partner, being a requirement and the French government then informs Dassault about it. Dassault only later needs to say, they have chosen Reliance that's all, when the contract negotiations were on.
The same would aply if the PM had insisted on Adani and Dassault then would have moved with them.

You can't refer to the DPP when the whole deal was done bypassing the DPP in the first place!
No tender, no DAC or CCS approvals, no option clause, no involvement of the DM at all, not even IAF is ready to confirm, that they were involved in the planing of that deal, or requested it. So where was the DPP used before the announcement?

Also add the fact, that Hollande and Trappier now confirmed, that they were surprised with the deal and that they had no informations about it, Dassault was not even part of that he talks.

This also confirms, that there was no grand plan behind it, the MMRCA was in a deadlock the to Dassault and the Rafale deal was the unilateral decision of the PM, to get out of it and act decisive at least for a few months.

If they had done it by the book, they had cancelled MMRCA first and then searched for an alternative, with MoD and IAF included, but that's not what happened and why it's so difficult for the government to defend the deal.

Btw, can you move these discussions on the deal to the Rafale thread and keep this thread on MMRCA topic?
 
If Trappier said that he chose Reliance, it's because he knows that the French government will confirm his statement

Hollande - India proposed Reliance

Macron - French government had no role in selecting Reliance and he was not in power by then.

That's not a rebuttal, but an unrelated statement. The current French government never denied that there was such a proposal, or that Hollande's statement was wrong. They only said, that they were not involved in choosing Reliance, which however nobody alleged anyway.

@Milspec

Please divert Rafale deal related discussions to this thread.
 
Hollande - India proposed Reliance

Macron - French government had no role in selecting Reliance and he was not in power by then.

That's not a rebuttal, but an unrelated statement. The current French government never denied that there was such a proposal, or that Hollande's statement was wrong. They only said, that they were not involved in choosing Reliance, which however nobody alleged anyway.

@Milspec

Please divert Rafale deal related discussions to this thread.
This is a statement that is completely in opposition to what Holland said.
Indeed Holland was present in a government-to-government negotiation, that's the only reason we listen to him since he no longer has an official role.

However, the French government says that it had no role in the selection of Reliance. This means that the subject could not even be addressed, and that even if the French government had wanted to please Modi by putting pressure on Dassault to choose Reliance, it did not have the power to do so. It's a polite way of saying Holland is lying.

Moreover, I remember very well the MMRCA negotiations and the criticism from you where you defended HAL that Dassault did not want as a partner who, from your point of view, was more competent than Reliance that Dassault wanted as a partner, so it is very artificial to want to claim that it is by undergoing pressure that Dassault chose Reliance.
 
However, the French government says that it had no role in the selection of Reliance.

And as said, nobody is questioning the French government, but the proposal of Reliance by the Indian government! So if there was no such proposal, the French government would need to say Hollande statement is untrue, but they didn't and only said, that they were not involved.

Moreover, I remember very well the MMRCA negotiations and the criticism from you where you defended HAL that Dassault did not want as a partner who, from your point of view, was more competent than Reliance that Dassault wanted as a partner, so it is very artificial to want to claim that it is by undergoing pressure that Dassault chose Reliance.

That doesn't make any sense. In the MMRCA, HAL was the mandatory partner for the licence production. But Dassault was free to choose Indian offset partners and chose Reliance.
If the government back then, insisted on Reliance as the offset partner as well, that would be cronyism too, but has no relation to HAL.

So neither French government or HAL is the issue here, but the proposal of Reliance by the Indian government / PM, because that is what Hollande alleged.