Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions
- Thread starter Herciv
- Start date
-
- Tags
- indian defence forum
The F-35 point is moot because the same article that mentions an alleged budgetary preference for single-engine also claims that the Swiss Air Force pilots insist on twin-seaters, and as you should know, all existing and future F-35 versions are exclusively single-seat.
You need to read the quoted part too, to understand the context and who brought the F35 up. I only explained why single engines are more cost-effective to operate than twin engine fighters
Last edited:
Yes the deal gets stranger and stranger, it's clear that the government guided it with all the overruling, will be interesting to see what CAG and SC will find out at the end.
I believe RaGa should go quite after all these disclosures. But he won’t. He wishes to make as much hay as possible even call the Dassault /Rafale chairman a liar, which is a no, no in international relations. Elections are due in five months, he does not understand all of it because he in unintelligent and poorly educated in US’s Rollins college, but his advisors are lusting for power. They are using him to gain power, if possible.
Stranger and stranger? If anything the more that comes out, the more the Govt stands vindicated.
First the oppostion tried using the price card, they quoted some utterly insane prices, when this was refuted they moved on to the offsets and now this has been totally debunked also so now were are at this frankly bizarre point where there is scrutiny on the procedural/decsion making route followed. Never heard this challenge to the C-17 deal (where India got FAR less bang for it's buck) or Vikramaditya or any of the countless G2G defence deals.
1)There are dissenting notes on EVERY file, the majority's view is what counts.
2) Why should the L2 candidate's (EFT consortium) unsolicited offer be entertained? This makes a mockery of the entire tender process.
Once again, utterly nothing to see here just more noise.
By the way Sancho, have you completely lost your ability to read, the overruling was based on a misinterpretion of the financial analysis done by the body, this issue was adressed with clarity from Dassualt. Where exactly is the crime here? Maybe one is too used to indecsion inside the Indian Govt, so one someone comes a long and actually starts pressing the boot on the necks of some to get results this is the response. It seems more and more like the system is designed for inaction.
We all know this is a political ploy/Tactics , if there is a role reversal ie UPA in the Govt and NDA in the opposition - we will definitely see the same drama play out as what we see today.
The sore point here is that the Present Govt isn't taking a fixed stand - ie "lets wait for the CAG report" and let the opposition make monkeys of themselves - but instead we have laughable counter-reply with no substance with the highlight being the agriculture minister having a press conference to talk about the Rafale Deal!
Q: Which Sq.?? and im not able to recognise this sq first type (WW1 Aircraft)
Well it is not, its clearly ARMEE DEL'AIR
1) Roundels of colours - red white blue
2) No Fin Flash - but the court of arms of the sqd (only the French frames has such)
3) Large Serial No. below the Cockpit
4) Fin of the Vertical Stabilizer - shows the silhouette of a WW1 Frame moving up to the Rafale - indicating that this Sqd is quite old
5) Finally the Nicely written ARMEE DEL'AIR at the base of the Vertical Stabilizer
Thus the Q : Which Sqd is this?
Fighter Squadron 2/30 Normandie-Niemen
The French Air Force is celebrating 75 years of the “Normandie-Niémen” fighter squadron. To mark the occasion, Air and Space painter Pierre-André Cousin and printmaker Yves Beaujard have worked together to produce a commemorative stamp.
From March 1943 to May 1945, the “Normandie-Niémen” fighter regiment carried out 5,240 war missions alongside the Soviet Air Force. With its many victories (273 confirmed) and sacrifices (42 of the first 96 pilots gave their lives for France), the “Normandie-Niémen” is the most decorated French military unit of the Second World War.
Based in Mont-de-Marsan since 2012, the “Normandie-Niémen” 2/30 fighter squadron now flies Rafale fighter planes in the Middle East. Its pilots are proudly following in the footsteps of their predecessors.
Commemorative Stamp: 75 years of the “Normandie-Niémen” squadron
Only if you are in complete denial and ignore overruling of objections of MoD and FM officials, if you ignore that BJP members that voiced concerns, were shifted from their positions, if you ignore president Hollande's statement's on cronyism, if you ignore IAF statements on consultation, if you ignore that SC and CAG is investigating the deal and the procedures, or if you ignore the latests issue of Dassault buying shares of Reliance subsidieres, possibly over market value...
It's in fact harder to ignore all this, than to honestly say the deal was done in a clean manner and with the best interest of IAF in mind, which it clearly wasn't.
It never was refuted, because the government claimed to not be able to provide info's on costs. The SC is now insisting on price info's and we will have to see what comes out of that. So far all we know is, that the flyaway unit cost for the 36 Rafales was 670 crores, while Congress claims around 525 crores during MMRCA.
Maybe because it was never considered under a licence production and the requirement in the G2G deal was not cut down?
Because this is not the MMRCA anymore, but a separate deal, where L1 and L2 doesn't apply! The DPP itself prefers to avoid single vendor deals, if there are appropriate alternatives available and since the EF was found technically suitable (which DM Sitharaman confirmed), an alternative proposal was necessary and in Indias interest to get a better deal, from either vendor.
Last edited:
The political part is already a role reversal, from what BJP did ahead of last elections, when they came up with nonsense claims on the same Rafale as well (not capable enough in A2G, underperformed in Libya and that's why nobody wants to buy it, concerns on costs. It's evident that especially RG took a lesson from BJPs playbook here. The difference here is, that there are valid reasons that makes the deal shady, apart of the political claims and that's why the government is trying hard to distract and avoid proper answers, rather than to clear things up and simply counter Congress.
Soon after the contract was signed, a senior political leader in the National Democratic Alliance held an off-the-record briefing in New Delhi for several journalists.
It was divulged that the contracted price averaged out to €91.7 million (Rs 686 crore/Rs 6.86 billion) per Rafale. This included the purchase of 28 single-seat fighters, for €91.07 million (Rs 681 crore/Rs 6.81 billion) each; and eight twin-seat fighters, each priced at €94 million (Rs 703 crore/Rs 7.03 billion).
That puts the cost of each of the 36 'bare bones' fighters at €91.7 million (Rs 686 crore) -- totalling up to €3.3 billion.
Besides this, the IAF paid €1.7 billion for 'India-specific enhancements', €700 million for weaponry such as Meteor and SCALP missiles, €1.8 billion for upgrade of 2 Indian bases, and €350 million for 'performance-based logistics', to ensure that at least 75 per cent of the Rafale fleet remains operationally available.
All this added up to another €4.5 billion, taking the cost of the contract up to €7.85 billion.
Cost of 126 aircraft deal
The only authoritative indicator of Rafale's bid in the 126-fighter MMRCA contest has come from Manohar Parrikar, while he was the defence minister. Talking to Doordarshan on April 13, 2015, he quoted a figure:
While this figure would include elements of technology transfer and manufacturing infrastructure creation, Rs 90,000 crore for 126 Rafales translates into an indicative cost of Rs 714 crore (Rs 7.14 billion) per fighter.
But this price is certainly that of the 18 aircraft that Dassault was supposed to produce in France. Indeed, we know from confidences to insider that HAL was unable to calculate the number of hours that would be required to build the Rafale in India and that consequently they increased the necessary working hours so that the price in India would be the same as the price in France.
French pricing for Rafale
The French senate periodically issues authoritative figures for Rafale pricing.
Translation
Then a unit cost of 73 million (excluding development costs) for the Rafale B (for 110 aircraft), 68 million for the Rafale C (for 118 aircraft) and 78 million for the Rafale M (for 58 aircraft).
Projet de loi de finances pour 2015 : Défense : équipement des forces
The figures put the acquisition cost per Rafale at €73 million (Rs 559 crore) for the Rafale B (twin-seat version); €68 million (Rs 521 crore) for the Rafale C (single-seat version); and €78 million (Rs 597 crore) for the Rafale M (aircraft carrier version).
These prices are significantly lower than what the IAF is paying for the Rafale.
The reason is that French industry has contributed 25% to the development of the Rafale and that this contribution must be included in the price of the exported Rafale in order to ensure the economic balance of the Rafale's production.
An analysis of official French senate figures indicates that the €45.9 billion cost of the Rafale programme consisted of two components: €25 billion for design, development and testing costs, and €20.85 billion for building 286 Rafales for the French air force and navy. It amounts to a developmental cost of €87.5 million (Rs 670 crore/Rs 6.7 billion) per Rafale -- more than its manufacturing cost.
Because these figures are an estimate of the cost for the French state, it is necessary to add the part that industry has paid, i.e. € 87.5/3 = € 29 Million which is 25% of the total developmental cost 116.5.
But there is no reason why French industry should pay these 29 million euros for the Indian Rafale, which justifies the increase when moving from the French cost to the Indian price.
The Rafale C price for export should be € 68 + 29 = € 97 million and was offert at 91.07 which is a 6.5 % reduction
Even if we would take this estimate of the author to account, it would indicate that the unit cost for the 36 Rafales is indeed higher (as Congress alledges), because this is the system costs with additional costs apart of the basic production / flyaway cost.
The French cost as said before, is not the flyaway cost from Dassault, but the average cost that France paid, based on their total order. No value wrt Indian orders.
The simple fact you keep harping on this deprives you of all credibility; because, once again, all he said was that the French government did not have any say on who the industrial partners would be -- and that's normal; it's exactly how it's supposed to be, that's what the rules say.
This was in the context of people trying to accuse him of having been bribed through one of the Reliance firms funding a movie where his mistress was playing. So he said that, no, this is irrelevant because he was never in a position to promote Reliance's interests in any way. (Reliance Entertainment directly or indirectly participates in the funding of thousands of films every year. But even that tenuous link was debunked anyway.)