Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[randomradio]

The first use of tile antennas was the APG81 radar, which the French are only using now because their technology is behind the US and China

I stand corrected, it appears all operational American radars today are tile arrays. The first one was APG-79 for the SH B2, followed by APG-63v3 for the F-15C. APG-63v2 had brick design, probably APG-80 as well.

It is an exaggeration to say that the Chinese have surpassed the Western countries. We are in the same position as the West
GaN technology has been widely used in various countries, such as a TR module board(we call it DAM), which was published in a paper in 2017.
This X-band GaN miniaturized DAM assembly can accommodate up to 4 T/ R, reducing size by 65% at similar transmission power
View attachment 27631

The latest Japanese technology announced in 2021 shows that each TR module board integrates 16 TR modules
This advanced technology will be applied to the future Japanese F-X fighter.View attachment 27632
View attachment 27633

In terms of R&D, all major countries are roughly at the same level.

But in terms of deployed capabilities, PLAAF is number one due to both advancements of the radars and the number of aircraft with the advanced radars. The closest are probably the F-16V and SH today. But neither jet can compete with the J-16 and J-20.

If the older version of J-20 or the new one with WS-15 comes with GaN, then PLAAF gets a 3-5 year advantage over the USAF. The earliest USAF gets GaN on the F-22 and F-35 will be 2026 and 2027, and it could take until 2028 to have some numbers.

 

[randomradio]

America's most advanced is MIDAS

View attachment 27634

It should be the most advanced in the world, much ahead of China and other countries

This is for the mmW spectrum. In case of MIDAS it's for 18-50GHz, not radar.

 

[LX1111]

This is for the mmW spectrum. In case of MIDAS it's for 18-50GHz, not radar.

This is the radar component of SPY 7

 

[Optimist]

This is the radar component of SPY 7

You know you are wasting your time, don't you. These guys still think that 'radar' is a simple, blip on a screen. Think of what an iPhone can do and times 100. They don't even call it 'radar' anymore.

AN/APG-81 Multifunction Integrated RF System/Multifunction Array (MIRFS/MFA)

Multi-role Electronically Scanned Array - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Multi-role Electronically Scanned Array (MESA)

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

You know you are wasting your time, don't you. These guys still think that 'radar' is a simple, blip on a screen. Think of what an iPhone can do and times 100. They don't even call it 'radar' anymore.

AN/APG-81 Multifunction Integrated RF System/Multifunction Array (MIRFS/MFA)

Multi-role Electronically Scanned Array - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Multi-role Electronically Scanned Array (MESA)

This is an L-Band radar, it has nothing to do with a fighter radar which is usually X-Band. In L-Band the elements are bigger, the miniaturisation is much less advanced, the carrier is bigger, GaN has been used for a long time.

 

[Optimist]

This is an L-Band radar, it has nothing to do with a fighter radar which is usually X-Band. In L-Band the elements are bigger, the miniaturisation is much less advanced, the carrier is bigger, GaN has been used for a long time.

So you think what I posted,,AN/APG-81 Multifunction Integrated RF System/Multifunction Array (MIRFS/MFA).. The f-35 is an L band array?
It's like trying to explain quantum to a kindergartener

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

So you think what I posted,,AN/APG-81 Multifunction Integrated RF System/Multifunction Array (MIRFS/MFA).. The f-35 is an L band array?
It's like trying to explain quantum to a kindergartener

Of course I was referring to your link to wikipedia

 

[LX1111]

. I believe a CCTV outlet said the J-11B's new radar can manage 450Km against a 1m2 target. This is way more than what's possible on the F-22 as well. The Irbis-E probably does 280Km or so and the APG-77 is inferior to the Irbis-E, possibly 250Km or so. Bars is probably at 160-180Km or so.

11BG radar's not that strong,I think it's about 220KM, Irbis-E detection range is about 220KM,not 280KM, It achieved by 20 kW peak power
Bars power is only 1 / 4 of Irbis-E radar，120-140KM is reasonable

 

[Optimist]

This is an L-Band radar, it has nothing to do with a fighter radar which is usually X-Band. In L-Band the elements are bigger, the miniaturisation is much less advanced, the carrier is bigger, GaN has been used for a long time.

I know in comparison, the 1970's era rafale radar is a blip on a screen. Without even the basic modes of other radars. It's not just the band and again I gave the x band f-35 as well. It's what it can do. Think of the cell phone 1985: Motorola Dynatac 8000X that just made calls, the Rafale...... and the iPhone and what it can do, 5th gen

 

[Rajput Lion]

The Chinese have the lead currently. Although the US seemingly has better tech, it's yet to be put into use.

Like, the SABR and RACR antennas are only on the APG-79, 82 (RACR) and 83 (SABR). APG-77 and 81 are still using older tech.

Chinese Flanker AESA radars have at least 2.5 times higher detection range than the MKI's Bars. I believe a CCTV outlet said the J-11B's new radar can manage 450Km against a 1m2 target. This is way more than what's possible on the F-22 as well. The Irbis-E probably does 280Km or so and the APG-77 is inferior to the Irbis-E, possibly 250Km or so. Bars is probably at 160-180Km or so.

Woah...450km detection against 1m^2 target means it would detect -40dBsm target at 45 kms using this formula:

450*(0.0001/1)^(1/4)

While -30dBsm targets would be detected at around 80kms. If Chinese can manage this, I can Only assume what we're going to achieve with a GaN AESA for MKI.

 

[randomradio]

This is the radar component of SPY 7

The M in MIDAS stands for millimeter. How is it related to SPY-7?

 

[randomradio]

11BG radar's not that strong,I think it's about 220KM, Irbis-E detection range is about 220KM,not 280KM, It achieved by 20 kW peak power

What is the target size? For a 350-400Km against 3m2, the same radar will do 270-300Km against 1m2. Why did that drop to 220Km?

220Km should be similar to what Rafale does against 1m2. How else will it use Meteor?

Bars power is only 1 / 4 of Irbis-E radar，120-140KM is reasonable

Power is just one aspect, there are other parameters too, like quality of software and processing. The IAF frequently upgrades the radar computer for Bars, including the software, every few years, it's faster than Russian upgrades, so this allows for faster improvements.

In 2007, the Bars could do 180+Km against 5m2 target, so it could detect a 1m2 target at 120Km. So it was already at 120Km 15 years ago. This is a very impressive figure for its time. RBE2 PESA could do 140Km against 3m2 target, or 106Km against 1m2. So the Bars was only surpassed by American AESA radars. Neither China nor Russia had ESA Flanker radars at the time.

Today, the Bars is most likely around 160-180Km against 1m2 target, based on clues released by others. That's 2.5 times lower than Irbis-E figures from 10 years ago, not including improvements since then.

I hope you do realise radar detection range is not fixed, it increases with time as new processors are invented and new processing techniques are developed.

Anyway 220Km for J-11BG is far too less, smaller AESA radars already do more than that.

 

[randomradio]

Woah...450km detection against 1m^2 target means it would detect -40dBsm target at 45 kms using this formula:

450*(0.0001/1)^(1/4)

While -30dBsm targets would be detected at around 80kms. If Chinese can manage this, I can Only assume what we're going to achieve with a GaN AESA for MKI.

Pulse compression techniques can increase that range, but the synergestic effects of radar will be more important to deal with stealth, like both multistatic and multilateration techniques.

Also that's peak power, it's not possible for radars to constantly emit so much power constantly. Radars will eventually drop down to average radiated power, and that's much less than what's possible at peak. For example, the average power of Bars is just 1.2KW.

 

[Herciv]

Rafale and Viper the masters of the "CHARIOTEER": French fighter "game changer" leaders and upgraded "Vipers" in air to air battles​

Rafale και Viper οι κυρίαρχοι του «ΗΝΙΟΧΟΥ»: Ηγέτες τα «game changer» Γαλλικά μαχητικά και οι αναβαθμισμένες «Οχιές» στις air to air μάχες

Τα radar ηλεκτρονικής σάρωσης AESA τόσο των Rafale (RBE2 AA) όσο και των F-16 Viper(APG-83) δείχνουν να υπερτερούν έναντι όλων των υπολοίπων

newpost.gr

The AESA electronically scanned radars of both the Rafale (RBE2 AA) and the F-16 Viper (APG-83) seem to outperform all others

• The monstrous Indian Su-30MK I and the almost similarly sized impressive F-15s of the Royal Saudi Air Force may have attracted all eyes in the great multinational exercise "INIOHOS 23", but the masters of the skies so far seem to be the French Rafale fighters of our Air Force and Armee D'el Air as well as the upgraded F-16 Viper of HAF.
  
  
  
  Their powerful radars and electronic jamming systems combined with the weapons they carry give them, as already shown in the first days of the exercise, a significant advantage in air to air combat over very powerful opponents. And even unknown in some cases, such as the SU-30 MK I of the Indian Air Force, which for the first time not only participate in a "CHARIOTEER" but are co-trained with Greek fighters.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  The AESA electronically scanned radars of both the Rafale (RBE2 AA) and the F-16 Viper (APG-83) seem to outperform all the others and "read" positions at much greater distances targeting faster and with great accuracy. Especially the Rafale with the powerful A/A Meteor in their arsenal seem to have a huge advantage since they go much further than any other fighter projectile.
  
  However, the results of the self-protection and jamming systems of the two fighters seem to be impressive, with the Spectra of the Rafale and the Aspis II of the Viper creating a very difficult electronic warfare environment for any enemy fighter.
  
  
  
  Although the Air Force has been flying with Rafale for less than a year and a half and with Viper for only a few months, the results of the superiority of the two aircraft fully satisfy the Air Staff. As he sees that he now has in his "quiver" two state-of-the-art war "machines" which in the hands of Greek pilots perform excellently. And as long as the Rafale and Viper are operationally integrated, the results will seal the dominance of the "blue" wings, Air Force officials estimate.
  
  
  
  
  The exercise during its first week has exceeded all expectations as, apart from the excellent climate and the immediate integration of the "new", the fact that eight different types of fighters with distinctive characteristics take part gives KEAT the opportunity to design complex high-difficulty scenarios. No one knows how the missions will unfold as all the airmen exhaust every possibility of the aircraft and only profit is the result.
  Characteristic is the huge interest gained in debriefing where the missions and "successes" of each fighter and each crew are analyzed in detail, while respectively points that need improvement are highlighted.
  
  The "newentries" in the "INIOHOS 23" Indians with the impressive size SU-30 MK I, the Jordanians with the very powerful F-16s and the Saudis with the imposing F-15s seem to have a high aviation culture.
  
  
  
  So, together with the "hawks" of HAF and the very capable French, Spanish and Italians in mixed formations, they execute with high professionalism all the scenarios which next week will increase to the degree of difficulty as the formations increase in numbers.

 

[Innominate]

Woah...450km detection against 1m^2 target means it would detect -40dBsm target at 45 kms using this formula:

450*(0.0001/1)^(1/4)

While -30dBsm targets would be detected at around 80kms. If Chinese can manage this, I can Only assume what we're going to achieve with a GaN AESA for MKI.

You do know he made that up, right?


I bet I can sell you a bridge....

 

[Rajput Lion]

Pulse compression techniques can increase that range, but the synergestic effects of radar will be more important to deal with stealth, like both multistatic and multilateration techniques.

Absolutely. Also, we must keep in mind that air combat is seldom 1 vs 1. It's about a formation vs another. So, if our fighters like MKI/Rafale are equipped with bi-directional data-link like B-Net, they can fly in really wide formation. All these -40dBsm/-30dBsm RCS figures that are quoted are for frontal 45° arc profile. So, if our GaN AESA equpped MKI illuminates VLO fighters from large/wide formation and multiple angles, they could achieve detection even earlier.

Also that's peak power, it's not possible for radars to constantly emit so much power constantly. Radars will eventually drop down to average radiated power, and that's much less than what's possible at peak. For example, the average power of Bars is just 1.2KW.

This is where GaN tech is game-changing. GaN chips can produce power multiple times more than GaAs and yet work cooler. If your quote of J-11's AESA radar range of 450km vs 1m^2 is correct than MKI with cutting-edge GaN AESA can achieve much more. Maybe even two times more detection range is possible. So if a wide formation of MKIs flying 30/40kms wide illuminate a VLO target from slightly wider angles, they may even detect stealth fighters from over 100 kms. Of course, this is just my speculation, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[LX1111]

What is the target size? For a 350-400Km against 3m2, the same radar will do 270-300Km against 1m2. Why did that drop to 220Km?

220Km should be similar to what Rafale does against 1m2. How else will it use Meteor?

I think since China is a user of the SU 35 radar，Let's see how China evaluates the N 035 radar
This is a paper by the J 20 design team--,AVIC Chengfeic
The N 035 radar has a maximum detection range of 350KM-400KM in a narrow field of view (+ - 20 °), At the same time need accurate target information guidance to complete.
An autonomous search target (+ - 60 °) has a detection range of only 200KM (for low-altitude targets, With a detection range of 170KM )
For rear targets, it has a detection range of only 80KM (low-altitude targets are only 50KM).

 

[LX1111]

Power is just one aspect, there are other parameters too, like quality of software and processing. The IAF frequently upgrades the radar computer for Bars, including the software, every few years, it's faster than Russian upgrades, so this allows for faster improvements.

In 2007, the Bars could do 180+Km against 5m2 target, so it could detect a 1m2 target at 120Km. So it was already at 120Km 15 years ago. This is a very impressive figure for its time. RBE2 PESA could do 140Km against 3m2 target, or 106Km against 1m2. So the Bars was only surpassed by American AESA radars. Neither China nor Russia had ESA Flanker radars at the time

The average power of the N 011m radar is 1.2 kW, while the average power of the N 035 is 5 kW,It is true that radar power is not the only factor affecting the detection range. Other signal-to-noise ratios, bypass ratios, etc., are also important. But the power of the radar is positively correlated with the range,，
The back-end processing system mainly affects the operating mode of the radar, with no effect on the detection distance, I suspect at the level of India's semiconductor industry, Can you come up with a good processing chip
you said in 2007, I did not find any official exact information, I doubt whether it is as I said before the narrow-field mode of operation

 

[LX1111]

This is where GaN tech is game-changing. GaN chips can produce power multiple times more than GaAs and yet work cooler. If your quote of J-11's AESA radar range of 450km vs 1m^2 is correct than MKI with cutting-edge GaN AESA can achieve much more. Maybe even two times more detection range is possible. So if a wide formation of MKIs flying 30/40kms wide illuminate a VLO target from slightly wider angles, they may even detect stealth fighters from over 100 kms. Of course, this is just my speculation, nothing more, nothing less.

I think let's not have so many fantasies, let's solve the problem at hand, for a simple example, If you change the radar, the plane's center of gravity will change，You need to change the structure and the In order to maintain aircraft performance，flight control system, the power supply, the cooling system, These all need to be changed，Does India have the capability?
It's not as simple as changing a pod and alarm
You know, India used to only assemble aircraft, and these are the J 11 design needs to face

 

[randomradio]

Absolutely. Also, we must keep in mind that air combat is seldom 1 vs 1. It's about a formation vs another. So, if our fighters like MKI/Rafale are equipped with bi-directional data-link like B-Net, they can fly in really wide formation. All these -40dBsm/-30dBsm RCS figures that are quoted are for frontal 45° arc profile. So, if our GaN AESA equpped MKI illuminates VLO fighters from large/wide formation and multiple angles, they could achieve detection even earlier.

This is where GaN tech is game-changing. GaN chips can produce power multiple times more than GaAs and yet work cooler. If your quote of J-11's AESA radar range of 450km vs 1m^2 is correct than MKI with cutting-edge GaN AESA can achieve much more. Maybe even two times more detection range is possible. So if a wide formation of MKIs flying 30/40kms wide illuminate a VLO target from slightly wider angles, they may even detect stealth fighters from over 100 kms. Of course, this is just my speculation, nothing more, nothing less.

The MKI can't do much against next gen jets even with a GaN radar. Newer jets like J-20 have a lot of other advantages.