Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

Can someone help to understand this video ?
He is quoting "french media" that Rafale may win deal 26 jets. This deal may be signed during Modi's planned trip to france in July of this year. He also starts speaking about possible assembly of jets in India etc.

Essentially, nothing new. Rehashing old information.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Herciv
Experts - Please give your opinion this article. Are modern aircraft like F-16 impotent against air-defences like S400s?


Former F-16 pilot says he would not want to fly missions over Ukraine right now, arguing 'there is no fighting chance'​


Jake Epstein
Wed, May 3, 2023 at 4:53 PM CDT·6 min read


A U.S. Air Force F-16 Fighting Falcon from the the 408th Fighter Squadron, Spangdahlem Air Base, Germany, flies a training sortie Sept. 9, 2015, over Germany.

A U.S. Air Force F-16 Fighting Falcon from the the 408th Fighter Squadron, Spangdahlem Air Base, Germany, flies a training sortie Sept. 9, 2015, over Germany.US Air Force photo by Tech. Sgt. Jason Robertson/Released
  • Ukraine has repeatedly asked the US for fourth-generation fighter jets like the F-16.
  • But air combat experts have argued that these aircraft would have little battlefield impact.
  • A former F-16 pilot said these jets don't have a fighting chance given Russia's air defense systems.
Ukrainian officials have long pressed their Western military backers to send them modern fighter jets, arguing Kyiv needs the airpower boost to best the invading Russian forces, and while some in the West agree, others argue fighter aircraft like the ones Ukraine wants wouldn't stand a chance in the current threat environment.
There have been repeated requests for the delivery of American-made F-16s, leading to debates over how effective the fourth-generation plane would be in the skies. One former F-16 pilot told Insider he wouldn't want to attempt to fly missions over Ukraine right now, asserting that the aircraft can't outmatch Russia's air defense systems.
Fourth-generation fighters "have no business in a modern-day battlefield," John Venable, a 25-year veteran of the US Air Force, told Insider in a recent interview.
Since the early days of Russia's full-scale invasion in February 2022, Ukraine has sought fighter jets from its Western allies to supplement its diminishing fleet of Soviet-era MiG-29 and Su-27 fighters, which arguably cannot compete against Russia's superior air force.
Ukraine F-16 Mirgorod

California and Alabama Air National Guard crews replace an Air Data Controller on an F-16 at Mirgorod Air Base during exercise Safe Skies on July 25, 2011.US Air Force/Tech. Sgt. Charles Vaughn
Kyiv has asked Washington on numerous occasions for American fighter jets like F-15s, F/A-18s, and F-16s, Colin Kahl, the undersecretary of defense for policy, told Congress in late February, but the Biden administration has punted on the request, insisting that aircraft like the F-16 are not what Ukraine needs.
Some lawmakers and military officials have pressed the Pentagon to send F-16s to Ukraine, and one retired US Air Force colonel said he believed the jets would help give Ukraine an edge over Russia above the battlefield.
But other air warfare experts and officials have argued that providing F-16s to Ukraine would be too much of a heavy lift for Kyiv's military, assessing that in addition to the demands of establishing key maintenance and support facilities, these fighter jets would struggle to survive in the present threat environment and provide little impact on the grinding conflict.
As Insider previously reported, Gen. James Hecker, commander of US Air Forces in Europe, argued earlier this year that jets just aren't needed right now, explaining that "the Russian as well as the Ukrainian success in integrated air and missile defense have made much of those aircraft worthless."

F-16 fighters would likely be outmatched by Russian air defense systems​

The airspace above Ukraine remains contested after 14 months of war. But Russia has enjoyed a numerically larger air force, stronger technical capabilities in its fighter jets, and long-range surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems, according to a recent report on Russian airpower published by the Center for Naval Analyses.
The capable SAM systems "have proven extremely lethal" against Ukrainian aircraft and are the "primary killer" of Ukrainian jets, helicopters, and drones, the report notes.
Ukraine Air Force MiG-29

Ukrainian Air Force MiG-29 at a military airbase in Ukraine, November 23, 2016.Danil Shamkin/NurPhoto via Getty Images
Fourth- and fourth-plus-generation fighter jets like the F-16 that lack stealth features are "completely outmatched in high-threat environments" because of advanced air-defense systems like Russia's S-400, argued Venable, a veteran and senior research fellow for defense policy at The Heritage Foundation, a Washington-based think tank.
In commentary published on the think tank's website last month, Venable wrote that the F-16 is not suited for Ukraine's air force for several reasons, including that the S-400 can outsmart the F-16's targeting systems and that it can target the fighter jets before they're in range to fire weapons like Small Diameter Bombs.
"Giving Ukraine more MiG-29s will not help the battlefield. And even if we gave them modern F-16s — I would say more modern F-16s — it's not going to change or influence the battlefield in a year, much less in time for a spring offensive," he told Insider in an interview this week, referring to Ukraine's much-anticipated counteroffensive.
Venable said that when he was flying F-16s over Europe earlier in his career as a pilot, his aircraft had solid jamming pods that worked against threats posed by the SA-6 and SA-11 Soviet-era SAM systems. He explained that he would have felt comfortable going up against the integrated Soviet air defenses in the 1980s and 1990s knowing he was backed by HARM targeting systems designed to take those on.
S-400 missile launch in Russia

An S-400 missile is launched at the Ashuluk military base in southern Russia during an exercise, September 22, 2020DIMITAR DILKOFF/AFP via Getty Images
"The threat would've been high. There would've been a good possibility that I would've been shot down, but also at least an equal possibility that I could have made it to the target, hit my target, and then I drop successfully and then egress safely from the battlefield," Venable said.
But there's since been a "whole leap in capabilities" between those and the current Russian SAM systems that have evolved over time. "I had a fighting chance back then," he said. "Today, there is no fighting chance."
Though sending F-16s to Ukraine does not currently appear to be on the table, something the US could do is to train the Ukrainian air force on how to use the fighter jets and bring it up to Western standards, Venable said. In other words, the US could get the Ukrainians oriented toward Western calibration — learning about the specific technology, logistical supply lines, maintenance, hydraulic systems, and fighter tactics.
"The end-game goal of that would not be for them to employ F-16s in combat. It would be for them to be spun up in a Western standard — a NATO standard, if you will — to where when they are able to fleet up to a fifth-generation platform, then that step will be a much more simple one for them to take," he said.
Although questions remain as to whether or not the US will eventually send advanced fighter jets to Ukraine, NATO countries like Poland and Slovakia have already committed to sending MiG-29s to Kyiv.
"Proud to be on the right side, doing the right thing to help protect #lives," Jaro Nad, Slovakia's defense minister, wrote on social media in mid-April after all of the jets that his country promised Ukraine were delivered to Kyiv's air force. "We Stand w/Ukraine."
 
Guns only is thee only card they have where Rafail can compete with an F-22 and F-35... but then again T-38/F5 can also use that card as well. :)
Except that it didn't get a guns kill on the F-22. Even Ats the french pilot said it didn't in the video he did

F-16.net View topic - F22 vs Rafale maneuverability (please move it to F22 forum)
Experts - Please give your opinion this article. Are modern aircraft like F-16 impotent against air-defences like S400s?


Former F-16 pilot says he would not want to fly missions over Ukraine right now, arguing 'there is no fighting chance'​


Jake Epstein
Wed, May 3, 2023 at 4:53 PM CDT·6 min read


A U.S. Air Force F-16 Fighting Falcon from the the 408th Fighter Squadron, Spangdahlem Air Base, Germany, flies a training sortie Sept. 9, 2015, over Germany.

A U.S. Air Force F-16 Fighting Falcon from the the 408th Fighter Squadron, Spangdahlem Air Base, Germany, flies a training sortie Sept. 9, 2015, over Germany.US Air Force photo by Tech. Sgt. Jason Robertson/Released
  • Ukraine has repeatedly asked the US for fourth-generation fighter jets like the F-16.
  • But air combat experts have argued that these aircraft would have little battlefield impact.
  • A former F-16 pilot said these jets don't have a fighting chance given Russia's air defense systems.
Ukrainian officials have long pressed their Western military backers to send them modern fighter jets, arguing Kyiv needs the airpower boost to best the invading Russian forces, and while some in the West agree, others argue fighter aircraft like the ones Ukraine wants wouldn't stand a chance in the current threat environment.
There have been repeated requests for the delivery of American-made F-16s, leading to debates over how effective the fourth-generation plane would be in the skies. One former F-16 pilot told Insider he wouldn't want to attempt to fly missions over Ukraine right now, asserting that the aircraft can't outmatch Russia's air defense systems.
Fourth-generation fighters "have no business in a modern-day battlefield," John Venable, a 25-year veteran of the US Air Force, told Insider in a recent interview.
Since the early days of Russia's full-scale invasion in February 2022, Ukraine has sought fighter jets from its Western allies to supplement its diminishing fleet of Soviet-era MiG-29 and Su-27 fighters, which arguably cannot compete against Russia's superior air force.
Ukraine F-16 Mirgorod

California and Alabama Air National Guard crews replace an Air Data Controller on an F-16 at Mirgorod Air Base during exercise Safe Skies on July 25, 2011.US Air Force/Tech. Sgt. Charles Vaughn
Kyiv has asked Washington on numerous occasions for American fighter jets like F-15s, F/A-18s, and F-16s, Colin Kahl, the undersecretary of defense for policy, told Congress in late February, but the Biden administration has punted on the request, insisting that aircraft like the F-16 are not what Ukraine needs.
Some lawmakers and military officials have pressed the Pentagon to send F-16s to Ukraine, and one retired US Air Force colonel said he believed the jets would help give Ukraine an edge over Russia above the battlefield.
But other air warfare experts and officials have argued that providing F-16s to Ukraine would be too much of a heavy lift for Kyiv's military, assessing that in addition to the demands of establishing key maintenance and support facilities, these fighter jets would struggle to survive in the present threat environment and provide little impact on the grinding conflict.
As Insider previously reported, Gen. James Hecker, commander of US Air Forces in Europe, argued earlier this year that jets just aren't needed right now, explaining that "the Russian as well as the Ukrainian success in integrated air and missile defense have made much of those aircraft worthless."

F-16 fighters would likely be outmatched by Russian air defense systems​

The airspace above Ukraine remains contested after 14 months of war. But Russia has enjoyed a numerically larger air force, stronger technical capabilities in its fighter jets, and long-range surface-to-air missile (SAM) systems, according to a recent report on Russian airpower published by the Center for Naval Analyses.
The capable SAM systems "have proven extremely lethal" against Ukrainian aircraft and are the "primary killer" of Ukrainian jets, helicopters, and drones, the report notes.
Ukraine Air Force MiG-29

Ukrainian Air Force MiG-29 at a military airbase in Ukraine, November 23, 2016.Danil Shamkin/NurPhoto via Getty Images
Fourth- and fourth-plus-generation fighter jets like the F-16 that lack stealth features are "completely outmatched in high-threat environments" because of advanced air-defense systems like Russia's S-400, argued Venable, a veteran and senior research fellow for defense policy at The Heritage Foundation, a Washington-based think tank.
In commentary published on the think tank's website last month, Venable wrote that the F-16 is not suited for Ukraine's air force for several reasons, including that the S-400 can outsmart the F-16's targeting systems and that it can target the fighter jets before they're in range to fire weapons like Small Diameter Bombs.
"Giving Ukraine more MiG-29s will not help the battlefield. And even if we gave them modern F-16s — I would say more modern F-16s — it's not going to change or influence the battlefield in a year, much less in time for a spring offensive," he told Insider in an interview this week, referring to Ukraine's much-anticipated counteroffensive.
Venable said that when he was flying F-16s over Europe earlier in his career as a pilot, his aircraft had solid jamming pods that worked against threats posed by the SA-6 and SA-11 Soviet-era SAM systems. He explained that he would have felt comfortable going up against the integrated Soviet air defenses in the 1980s and 1990s knowing he was backed by HARM targeting systems designed to take those on.
S-400 missile launch in Russia

An S-400 missile is launched at the Ashuluk military base in southern Russia during an exercise, September 22, 2020DIMITAR DILKOFF/AFP via Getty Images
"The threat would've been high. There would've been a good possibility that I would've been shot down, but also at least an equal possibility that I could have made it to the target, hit my target, and then I drop successfully and then egress safely from the battlefield," Venable said.
But there's since been a "whole leap in capabilities" between those and the current Russian SAM systems that have evolved over time. "I had a fighting chance back then," he said. "Today, there is no fighting chance."
Though sending F-16s to Ukraine does not currently appear to be on the table, something the US could do is to train the Ukrainian air force on how to use the fighter jets and bring it up to Western standards, Venable said. In other words, the US could get the Ukrainians oriented toward Western calibration — learning about the specific technology, logistical supply lines, maintenance, hydraulic systems, and fighter tactics.
"The end-game goal of that would not be for them to employ F-16s in combat. It would be for them to be spun up in a Western standard — a NATO standard, if you will — to where when they are able to fleet up to a fifth-generation platform, then that step will be a much more simple one for them to take," he said.
Although questions remain as to whether or not the US will eventually send advanced fighter jets to Ukraine, NATO countries like Poland and Slovakia have already committed to sending MiG-29s to Kyiv.
"Proud to be on the right side, doing the right thing to help protect #lives," Jaro Nad, Slovakia's defense minister, wrote on social media in mid-April after all of the jets that his country promised Ukraine were delivered to Kyiv's air force. "We Stand w/Ukraine."
I didn't read it, but 4/4.5 gen have a multiplatform of different types , for attack on Sam's. F-16's by itself is a worry . Same goes for the Rafale
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Innominate
Except that it didn't get a guns kill on the F-22. Even Ats the french pilot said it didn't in the video he did

F-16.net View topic - F22 vs Rafale maneuverability (please move it to F22 forum)

I didn't read it, but 4/4.5 gen have a multiplatform of different types , for attack on Sam's. F-16's by itself is a worry . Same goes for the Rafale
I know. Out of 5 Dogfights, Raptor won 1 and rest were draw.
View attachment 27589
Congratulations for joining the club the US has been in for years


Froggy plane is dead way before any WVR meeting also the Aim-120D and 9Xii are all aspect HOB missiles.
F-22 has TVC but not HMDS. F-35 has EODAS but lacks agility. An Indian Rafale pilot with MICA-IR and HMDS will fancy his chance against both. With guns only fight, Raptor should prevail. But F-35? Dead as a duck, lolol.
 
A credible source please. That's not the way the F-22 pilot remembers it.

The rest of your post is the usual nonsense.
I never utter nonsense but truth. Here is a French source:

But what surprised their American counterparts was the behavior of the Rafale against the F-22 Raptor, the latter having only managed to score one hit in 6 confrontations. At least that's what was said at the time.

Source: Un F-22 Raptor en mauvaise posture face à un Rafale - Zone Militaire

So out of 6 dogfights 1 victory for F-22(some sources claim 2) and rest were draw/no result.
 
I never utter nonsense but truth. Here is a French source:



Source: Un F-22 Raptor en mauvaise posture face à un Rafale - Zone Militaire

So out of 6 dogfights 1 victory for F-22(some sources claim 2) and rest were draw/no result.
You think this is credible? the French said the video showed a win for the Rafale. They got all excited and released the video, proving it..Only to find out later it was BS. So at the time the French claimed at least one win for the Rafale.
I said the rest of your post was nonsense. I was after a credible source for your win/loss/draw. Still haven't seen it. what the french said at the time was answered by the f-22 pilot " that's not the way, I remember it"
(I forget the exact french claim and can't be bothered to try and find it.},
 
Last edited:
" There were not 5 draws and one win. There were six wins. One NAMED F-22 pilot simply said that "That wasn't the way I remember it" - politely contradicting what Grandclaudon had said (and remember that Lt Col Grandclaudon spoke for PR purposes at a press conference), while the NAMED F-22 Squadron Commander could not have been more unequivocal, saying that the F-22s won every engagement, a statement that UNNAMED F-16 aircrew from more than one air force confirmed, and so did Typhoon pilots and at least one pilot of another participating type "
 
Kermit, are you guys still trying to make a guns only dogfight with the F-22. Into some magic event where a missile counts? In the real world, the Rafale would have never seen the F-22 and would suddenly have the missile warning go off, just before it explodes.
I remember a very modern AIM9X fired on a old Su over Syria, only fitted with >30 years old flares.... it failed miserably.

Do you know what is the success rate of all the AMRAAM familly ? (answer : pityfull. And never against 1st rank air forces).
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rajput Lion
Yes Naranda Modi is going to give a bouquet of flowers to Brigitte Macron.
There are rumours about France offering a production line in India of Rafale for 117 jets(90 for IAF & 27 for IN) during Modi ji's visit. Lets see what happens cause as per some rumours US is also offering F-35s to counter this French proposal.
 
Hope some movement on something, anything, happens then.
There has been movements.

Russia also agreed to support India’s defense industry through the economic initiative Make in India, according to a statement from the Indian Defence Ministry.

“The two Ministers discussed wide-ranging issues of bilateral defence cooperation, including military-to-military ties as well as industrial partnership,” the ministry said. “They also discussed the Russian defence industry’s participation in the ‘Make in India’ initiative and ways to provide further impetus to it.”

Russian original equipment manufacturers are to set up joint ventures with private defense enterprises in India to locally produce spare parts, systems and subassembly material, as well as to perform maintenance, repair, overhaul and upgrade work in order to keep Russian equipment operational for India’s military.
 
There has been movements.

Russia also agreed to support India’s defense industry through the economic initiative Make in India, according to a statement from the Indian Defence Ministry.

“The two Ministers discussed wide-ranging issues of bilateral defence cooperation, including military-to-military ties as well as industrial partnership,” the ministry said. “They also discussed the Russian defence industry’s participation in the ‘Make in India’ initiative and ways to provide further impetus to it.”

Russian original equipment manufacturers are to set up joint ventures with private defense enterprises in India to locally produce spare parts, systems and subassembly material, as well as to perform maintenance, repair, overhaul and upgrade work in order to keep Russian equipment operational for India’s military.
He is talking about movement in Rafale deal. What that has to do with Russia? Lol.
 
There has been movements.

Russia also agreed to support India’s defense industry through the economic initiative Make in India, according to a statement from the Indian Defence Ministry.

“The two Ministers discussed wide-ranging issues of bilateral defence cooperation, including military-to-military ties as well as industrial partnership,” the ministry said. “They also discussed the Russian defence industry’s participation in the ‘Make in India’ initiative and ways to provide further impetus to it.”

Russian original equipment manufacturers are to set up joint ventures with private defense enterprises in India to locally produce spare parts, systems and subassembly material, as well as to perform maintenance, repair, overhaul and upgrade work in order to keep Russian equipment operational for India’s military.

There's always something happening between India and Russia, even Israel. America has somewhat joined the club. It's always the French who get the short end of the stick.

But it's about time we balance out relations with Russia with France. So we need a big ticket deal in, either Rafale or submarines. Whatever it is, it needs to get moving this year.
 
There's always something happening between India and Russia, even Israel. America has somewhat joined the club. It's always the French who get the short end of the stick.

But it's about time we balance out relations with Russia with France. So we need a big ticket deal in, either Rafale or submarines. Whatever it is, it needs to get moving this year.
Rafale with Meteor is a deterrent and force multiplier in itself. It was a mistake that we didn't order more. So, we must order both Rafale and Scorpène/Kalvari in big numbers this time around.

There are also rumours about France asking India to join FCAS! Hoping for some positive news on this front too as we can't lag behind the Chinese in 6th gen fighter program.