Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions
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Multi-Role Carrier Borne Fighter For The Indian Navy - Updates & Discussions
Le Rafale M porté au standard F4.1 a fait ses premiers vols depuis le porte-avions Charles de Gaulle Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version) The Rafale M upgraded to F4.1 standard made its first flights from the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier Recently qualified by the...
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Multi-Role Carrier Borne Fighter For The Indian Navy - Updates & Discussions
Le Rafale M porté au standard F4.1 a fait ses premiers vols depuis le porte-avions Charles de Gaulle Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version) The Rafale M upgraded to F4.1 standard made its first flights from the Charles de Gaulle aircraft carrier Recently qualified by the...www.strategicfront.org
CONTACT is an SDR, probably in the V/UHF and L band for long range comms. A patrol link works in the Ku band, high attenuation for secrecy, short range.
Yes it's not new:
Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion
US shoots down unknown 'high-altitude object' over Alaska, White House says 11 Feb 2023 Ben Gittleson "It was "cylindrical" and "silver-ish grey," ABC's Martha Raddatz was told. The White House said Friday that an unknown "high-altitude object" had been shot down over the waters off Alaska...
Yes it's not new:
Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and F-22 'Raptor' : News & Discussion
US shoots down unknown 'high-altitude object' over Alaska, White House says 11 Feb 2023 Ben Gittleson "It was "cylindrical" and "silver-ish grey," ABC's Martha Raddatz was told. The White House said Friday that an unknown "high-altitude object" had been shot down over the waters off Alaska...
Right. I forgot about that.
The issue with French reporting is the overlap of capabilities meant for different timelines without a proper explanation of the dates for when those capabilities will be introduced, and they make it look like it's just round the corner, not 10 years away. Even you were tricked regarding GaN.
GaN and DIRCM were supposed to be for this decade. Same with the patrol link. DEDIRA enhancements were meant for an even earlier timeframe.
Basically, while the Rafale's capabilities work, it's still behind the F-35 in some ways. This also goes back to an earlier discussion we had regarding Rafale's small size and its much later adoption of advanced technologies relative to its larger peers that are not as constrained by miniaturization.
Since there's still 7-10 years for the Rafale to catch up/surpass the F-35 B4, it's very likely that it will continue to lose competitive bids to it until then. So I'm not surprised now that the F-35 has been winning even after discounting stealth. It cannot defeat the F-35 in tech specs, and the Americans, whether by hook or crook, sign deals at a cheaper price.
That may have been the wish for F4.2 in 2030. Unfortunately as reported, F4.2 has been gutted and just a shell of its former self. Block obsolescence and stuff has moved to F5, finalised around 2040.The F4.2 upgrade is pretty significant if news reports are to be believed. For example, the radar will be fully digital, a full generational upgrade over what's on the F-35 today, which is analog. While it's not GaN, it's still better than anything known flying in the West today. It will come with the ability to detect stealth jets via collaborative tactics.
It's also getting a new radio, which is a significant upgrade over the F-35. There are plenty of other upgrades that bring the jet on par with the F-35 or even surpasses it.
In any case, you should know that about 15 years ago, the French reported that we will see 2 different configurations of the Rafale after 2025, one would be an F5 version simply called Rafale NG for 2025, and an MLU version for 2030. Apparently, the NG version would come with airframe changes that the older Rafales cannot match, hence two different standards. The dates and expectations are slightly different, but it is what it is. The F4 can be treated as the MLU version, maybe the 4.3 can be. And the F5 with the new 2030 date is basically a less fancy version of the NG.
My hopes were dashed with the new F5 dates, but it doesn't change the fact that the F4 is still a very significant upgrade.
My only grouse, from the perspective of the IAF, is this:
Badrinath describes the Rafale F4 as “a very effective aircraft, ready to realise any kind of mission. We have a product that is really ready for the next 10 to 15 years.”
‘Now fight connected’: why F4-standard Rafale is a game-changer for France
The French military is hailing a major advance with its Rafale combat aircraft, with the Dassault-built type poised to employ a raft of new operational capabilities.www.flightglobal.com
If we start MRFA today, sign a contract in 2027 and get the first jet in 2030, assuming all 114 are F4, then we are already through with half the effective date by the time we get the first squadron. And by the time we get all 6 squadrons, we will have already crossed 10-15 years, making the purchase pointless, necessitating a very expensive upgrade program, the kind F-35 customers will be expected to do in just a few years after the B4 is ready.
But the point here is, with the F4.2, all those buying this version now, like the IN, and other export customers, will benefit from the upgrades until 2040, so it's good enough for existing jets. And it makes it more competitive with the F-35.
So there's no point in dissing a jet that's actually keeping to schedule. What you need to worry about is when the F-35 will catch up to the Rafale F5, 'cause it's coming out almost alongside the F-35 B4. It's not gonna be a good look for the US and LM if the Rafale ends up with a next gen avionics suite before the F-35.
The F4 just did not meet expectations outside the military, not the case within, who know the actual story. The Rafale is still the most advanced "fully operational" jet in the world today, if we assume the J-20 is better.
F5 is pretty much already finalized. It's for the 2031-35 period, it's expected to fly in 2026-27, which means it should technically be ready by 2031-32. F6 is for the 2040s.
Best case, it's just gonna be 1-2 years later than we expected. So it's still roughly about the time F-35 B4 will be ready by, considering it's definitely gonna be delayed beyond its current 2029 deadline.
I'm starting to wonder who is more deceitful. You or the french? You can bet SEAD/DEAD has been shifted to F-5, What else hasn't been released.
F4 2023-2030
F5 2030-2040
There's no need to keep harping on about 2019 when it's 2023 and we've decided to speed up developments because of the Ukrainian crisis.
If you sign in 2027 and production takes place in India, it will take 4 years to bring out the first plane: 1 year to build the factory, and 3 years for the first plane. That puts the first plane in 2031, and if you demand that it be an F5, it will be. Trappier did say that it was not he who decided the date of the versions, but the French state, which means that he can do pretty much what you want if you commit to buying the product, and for once it could be India that decides. After all, you did buy a new version with ISE, so why not an F5 ISE version?The F4.2 upgrade is pretty significant if news reports are to be believed. For example, the radar will be fully digital, a full generational upgrade over what's on the F-35 today, which is analog. While it's not GaN, it's still better than anything known flying in the West today. It will come with the ability to detect stealth jets via collaborative tactics.
It's also getting a new radio, which is a significant upgrade over the F-35. There are plenty of other upgrades that bring the jet on par with the F-35 or even surpasses it.
In any case, you should know that about 15 years ago, the French reported that we will see 2 different configurations of the Rafale after 2025, one would be an F5 version simply called Rafale NG for 2025, and an MLU version for 2030. Apparently, the NG version would come with airframe changes that the older Rafales cannot match, hence two different standards. The dates and expectations are slightly different, but it is what it is. The F4 can be treated as the MLU version, maybe the 4.3 can be. And the F5 with the new 2030 date is basically a less fancy version of the NG.
My hopes were dashed with the new F5 dates, but it doesn't change the fact that the F4 is still a very significant upgrade.
My only grouse, from the perspective of the IAF, is this:
Badrinath describes the Rafale F4 as “a very effective aircraft, ready to realise any kind of mission. We have a product that is really ready for the next 10 to 15 years.”‘Now fight connected’: why F4-standard Rafale is a game-changer for France
The French military is hailing a major advance with its Rafale combat aircraft, with the Dassault-built type poised to employ a raft of new operational capabilities.
If we start MRFA today, sign a contract in 2027 and get the first jet in 2030, assuming all 114 are F4, then we are already through with half the effective date by the time we get the first squadron. And by the time we get all 6 squadrons, we will have already crossed 10-15 years, making the purchase pointless, necessitating a very expensive upgrade program, the kind F-35 customers will be expected to do in just a few years after the B4 is ready.
But the point here is, with the F4.2, all those buying this version now, like the IN, and other export customers, will benefit from the upgrades until 2040, so it's good enough for existing jets. And it makes it more competitive with the F-35.
So there's no point in dissing a jet that's actually keeping to schedule. What you need to worry about is when the F-35 will catch up to the Rafale F5, 'cause it's coming out almost alongside the F-35 B4. It's not gonna be a good look for the US and LM if the Rafale ends up with a next gen avionics suite before the F-35.
I think that the boom period for the F-35 is over. There are some ambiguities in the presentation that bother us, who are not the recipients of the proposals, but I'm quite sure that in the official responses the possibilities are quite clear, with the associated price. But above all, the plans are changing. For GaN, it seemed very interesting when the PESA -->AESA improvement only provided 40% extra range, but when the result was 100% and the radar was sufficient to fire the METEOR, it became "nice to have" and on the other hand we became interested in multi-channel receivers and ultra-powerful computers to fight electronic warfare and by making the future GaN radar evolve towards something very different from what we were initially envisaging.
As far as DEDIRA is concerned, from my point of view it's already integrated into F3R under the heading "SPECTRA improvement".
You say that we're giving the impression that developments are just around the corner, and not 10 years away, but the F-35 does much worse, it gives the impression that it works in accordance with its basic definition whereas it has several category 1 anomalies which in France would ground the aircraft and more than 800 category 2 anomalies which make any real complex mission impracticable. Of course, you can always do tests in exercises that give impressive results, but everything has to be properly calibrated and the exercise has to go off without a hitch to achieve the result.
DEDIRA stands for DEmonstrateur de DIscrétion RAfale and is a very secret programme that is hard to pin down. The most precise description I know of was written by a friend of mine who was invited on the 10/01/2014 to the ceremony where the F3R development contract was handed over to the CEO of Dassault. I'll translate his text for you:
On the other hand, we won't know anything about the exact content of the update to the Rafale's electronic warfare system, SPECTRA. I ventured to ask whether the DEDIRA programme would be part of the F3R standard, but I didn't get a direct answer. The best I could learn was that it flies and works well, but my interviewer of the day was content with that and a mischievous smile that says it all... while remaining in total vagueness. DEDIRA is a programme revealed in Air & Cosmos, aimed at reducing the aircraft's radar signature. If the demonstrator for this programme flies, then it can only be taken on board the B301, which had in fact made a road trip to carry out some tests at the DGA test centre at Bruz. Coincidence? Other military indiscretions had made it possible to establish with virtual certainty the existence of a so-called "active cancellation" function enabling the Rafale to evade enemy detection based on Spectra's capabilities. If the DEDIRA programme does indeed fly on the Rafale, and the development B301 has not been modified in any way visually, then active anulation of the Rafale is something that can be more or less confirmed as being at least under study.
Visite de Le Drian à Mérignac : Des avancées majeures pour le Rafale, mais pas que... - Le Portail des Passionnés d'Aviation
En visite le 10 janvier sur des sites importants de l’industrie française de la défense, le ministre de la défense Jean Yves Le Drian s’est notamment rendu chez Dassault Aviation à Mérignac pour une visite au pas de charge, avant la remise du contrat de développement d’un nouveau standard du...
www.portail-aviation.com
The patrol link is a short-distance link to be as discreet as possible, directional for the same reasons, with a very high data rate compared with the air links usually used, and with very low latency. It can be used to create extended sensors such as multi-static radar. The advantage of a multi-static radar is that a stealth aircraft confronted with a multi-static radar will radiate as much as a conventional aircraft because the transmitter and receiver are not co-located and the principle of stealth aircraft is to reflect 80% of the radiation in a direction other than that of the transmitter and to absorb the 20% of radiation that cannot be deflected in this way.
The dates mentioned are long term R&D timeframes, not when the capability first becomes available.
The SEAD capability mentioned is something new, it doesn't exist even in other Western jets, even the F-35.
Yes, I had mentioned that the IAF is willing to wait 3-5 years for the first squadron. So the delivery cycle is fine for 2031-32, just not for 2035.
While core avionics can be tested on helicopters and business jets, I'm not really sure to what extent it will be ready for evaluations in 2024 or 2025, ie, the timeframe the evaluations are expected in. Otoh, an F5 first flight is expected in 2026-27.
But you can't deny there has been some overhype during advertisements in terms of future capabilities.
Sure. I'll take your word for it. I recall reading articles from 2011 as well, so it was meant for the previous decade.
That's a different subject. The Americans are a lot more transparent. They announce projects with timelines, the French only announce projects, we can only guess the timelines.
A data link is like the Internet. A patrol link is like an intranet, it has higher speed and more security.
DEDIRA improves SPECTRA's ability to lower the Rafale's RCS. With DEDIRA, the Rafale will have the same RCS as the F-22 without external weapons. With external weapons, it drops by just 10-100 times. There should be a lot of other unknown features as well.
I think a high-speed SDR is enough for that, although a patrol link is definitely a better option. The radar is only acting as a receiver after all, so information exchange is quite limited.
Time needs to be extremely precise, as precise as an atomic clock, not in absolute precision but in relative precision, basically the same time base. It is possible to have this precision with GPS or Galileo, but in the event of effective jamming we lose important functions, so as a back-up there is a time base in the link.
We manage as best we can, it's not easy to fight against the Americans, the Rand Corporation doesn't understand why Dassault is still present on the market, for them it's an anomaly.
