Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

[Bon Plan]

I let Pic answering.

you are not french, and more probably only read the very small free part of the news paper.
As I'm french and open the full source document, reality is far more balanced.
So stay calm and take a cup of tea.

oups : another F35 was lost this morning.... Un pilote s’éjecte in extremis avant le crash de son avion F-35 en Alaska
"autorities say a in flight malfunction".

You're right.
This is why a new contract for 26 will be inked soon, and another batch in on the agenda for indian air force.

After all they only have to face China....

The famous document : https://www.ifri.org/sites/default/...remans_avenir_superiorite_aerienne_2025_0.pdf

Read it all, understand it all and after that speak.

for the non french i wish you good luck.....

 

[_Anonymous_]

I let Pic answering.

Which is the reason I asked him in the first place & not you , in the first place.

you are not french, and more probably only read the very small free part of the news paper.
As I'm french and open the full source document, reality is far more balanced.

What makes you think I've not read the entire article ? Looks like you're unfamiliar with sites like Way back machine & other such sites which enable reading articles behind pay walls.

oups : another F35 was lost this morning.... Un pilote s’éjecte in extremis avant le crash de son avion F-35 en Alaska
"autorities say a in flight malfunction".

And what has the loss of an F-35 due to a mishap have to do with the performance or characteristics of a Rafale ? Doesn't the Rafale suffer mishaps ? Did I even bring it up ?

If you really had something to offer you should've countered the points made by the article there with a rebuttal here.

Instead you come up with whatever it is you just did.

So stay calm and take a cup of tea.

Looks like you need a shot of cognac to stay calm .

 

[Parthu]

J 20 can be countered by New VHF ground based radar , unveiled yesterday by BEL

That's like saying now that we have S400, we don't need air defence fighters anymore. That's silly.

China has VHF radars too, severral models. They've been part of the conversation wrt stealth for decades at this point. They don't negate the need to possess stealthy aircraft of your own. Ask PLAAF. Why do you think they're building J-20s and J-35s if US F-35s and F-22s can be countered by VHF radars?

Chinese Stealth Radar

www.sps-aviation.com

We're still new to the game.

And detected by GAN based Su 30 radar

A news report of F 35's new radar ie APG 85 has described GAN Radars capability

For the n-th time on this forum, GaN does not magically make your radar 5x more powerful.

It still depends on how much electrical output your system is capable of generating. On the Super MKI, we're not going for a new engine, just the same AL-31FP, rebuilt with new materials to improve service life. There won't be a massive increase in electrical output like on 5th gen engines like F35's F135.

So in terms of radar power, we know we're only looking at a cooling capacity of 10.5 kW...that's only about 1/3rd of F-35's current GaAs setup and only 1/8th of F-35 Block-4 setup. MKI's AESA will be big, but not really that powerful. It'll be more powerful than Rafale's radar though.

Effectively, we're just looking at an increase in terms of power efficiency with GaN (compared to GaAs AESA). On a 4.5 gen platform, GaN doesn't really give that much more power to work with than what GaAs would have allowed. If you're into computers, GaN on a non-5th gen platform is essentially like hooking up a RTX 4090 to a 500W PSU and a Core i3 CPU. You need a 1000W PSU & a Core i9 to take full advantage of what the 4090 can do.

But the bigger problem with MKI is that it's got a huge RCS in of itself. That means there's essentially no way that it can obtain look-first/shoot-first against a J-20B.

Do you really think that without a close look at Rafale F 3 R , we could have developed AMCA or upgraded SU 30

Ummm...yes. Of course we'd have learnt a good deal by operating the plane, but we didn't obtain any ToT from the Rafale per se.

The techs that go into AMCA & MKI UPG were well into development by the time we received the first Rafale. Israel actually has a lot more contribution to that knowledge base than France.

 

[randomradio]

IF MRFA is inevitable , can
We look at SU 57

But the irony is that for AMCA engine technology, We are Negotiating with Safran and Rolls Royce

So if Safran is selected , A Rafale order is guaranteed

Su-57 is no longer necessary. The IAF has already decided on the path ahead. MKI, LCA, MRFA, and AMCA. Any alternative has to come at the cost of one or both domestic programs.

GE is being considered for AMCA too.

 

[randomradio]

M2000D only has self defense air to air capacity. A bit more potent than with a pure short range missile (AIM9 X or Asraam) but limited by the seeker only range capacity.
The radar is unable to see a tanker at more than a few kilometers ! It was made for terrain following.
The self protection sytem is not really upgraded.
M2000D MLU was made for african field, with poor AtoA opposition. But now than we are kicked off nearly all africa, it's useless.

For the rest, it is a complain of pilots that always want more birds, more thrust, more everything. As I'm french, it is easier to understand the full article. The reality is far more balanced than the sole tittle.

But the ammunition stock is in fact very low, and not only in air force. SEAD and DEAD was forgoten. Money is the key... (in fact lack of money).

The report slightly exaggerates the potential numbers required by 2030. But there's quite a bit of truth in it.

Russia's air defenses work and they are still building in very large numbers, whereas France has no real answer in this arena. And the Russians are going to buy 400-500 fighters by the end of the decade versus something like 50 for France, although the saving grace here is many of the older Rafales can be upgraded to F4 by 2030 as well.

 

[Rajput Lion]

But the bigger problem with MKI is that it's got a huge RCS in of itself. That means there's essentially no way that it can obtain look-first/shoot-first against a J-20B.

RCS too will be reduced in the UPG. program. Of course still would be far more than J-20. However, MKI UPG. will have very advance capability to work with CCAs something Rafale will only get from F5 onwards. And with CCAs, it very well may obtain first look, first shoot against VLO jets like J-20.

Another point is AI enable software algorithms of the Virupaksha, that'll be tuned to detect very small RCS target that fly at a particular speed. Because of the advancements in software algorithms, Virupaksha would be able to filter out very small targets like birds, insects while being able to track VLO targets(using doppler shift to gaze their velocity to decide track or filter).10.5KW cooling may mean over 25KW peak power, so not bad at all. And thanks to GaN, it shall be able to operate at high power far longer than GaAs.

 

[randomradio]

There's nothing in the report that level-headed people didn't already know.

The disappointment/realization that some are facing is purely because they were taken in by all the magical, mystical qualities that were attributed to Rafale & SPECTRA by fanboys in their unofficial capacity...backed by certain, carefully stage-managed OEM statements (the OEM which of course has a vested interest in selling the plane).

Now they admit the IAF version we have now (F3R) or even the one offered in MRFA (F4.X) is insufficient to counter J-20B. But for some reason all these years they were pushing us to get ToT for making this variant - knowing the possibility that even if F5 can somehow counter 5th gen**, it may not be possible to upgrade existing F3/F4 airframes to F5 as that standard might incorporate structural changes to accommodate new equipment.

OTOH, he problem with waiting for F5 is that it can only be realistically delivered by the mid-2030s, so we'll have to be taking delivery of MRFA and the far more survivable AMCA simultaneously! So IMO, F5 ToT actually makes even less sense than F4.

The F5 is for countries that already operate Rafale, but don't plan on inducting a 5th gen platform (like France, which is going directly to 6th gen NGF/FCAS). Even though F5 can't really substitute a real 5th gen, France has no other go - they don't plan on inducting a real stealth plane with internal weapons before ~2045, so they need something that can tide them over in the meantime, even though it's just half-a$$ing it.

But our plans are different - we plan on inducting the stealthy AMCA by around the same time France plans on inducting F5. So F5 doesn't really make sense for us. It would be too much expense for a sub-optimal capability. The F5 isn't something you invest in if you have the option of inducting an actual stealthy airframe with internal weapons in that same timeframe.

**I still maintain that F5 can't really do it. Not even counting the possibility that by that time we'd probably be facing a J-20C with CCAs acting as forward observers & effectors...

...the concept of ACT or digital stealth cannot apply uniformly to all threats. There are theatres & opponents against which it would be less effective than others. With the kind of sensor density & tech we would be facing with China (and we won't have F-35s, F-22s & B-21s fighting on our side like the French will if going up against Russia), ACT cannot really be counted upon to work.

Spoof incoming missile seekers? Doable.

Make your plane stealthy against modern AESAs? Not really.

Our MRFA timeline is for F5.

There is no need to upgrade F3/F4 to F5 standards, it will get a new standard after 2045. It will become important to upgrade the IAF's F3R SPECTRA with GaN by 2030-35.

The 2016 deal, in my opinion, was pushed through for one primary reason above everything else - nuclear delivery.

There is no plan to convert the existing Rafales for nuclear delivery. Rafales via MRFA will be used instead, as it will come with all the infra necessary to make the integration ourselves. Until then, M2000 and Jag remain the main nuclear vectors. Although the IAF has said they can make some Rafales available for nuclear delivery, no such attempt has been made yet.

In any case, Rafale has to finish about 10 years before it can be considered for it.

Everything else, like A2A, A2G, was secondary or tertiary.

Obivously, the opposite.

AMCA will have to take over this role in the future as Rafale won't remain survivable for very long - much shorter than we thought.

AMCA? No.

The famous document : https://www.ifri.org/sites/default/...remans_avenir_superiorite_aerienne_2025_0.pdf

Read it all, understand it all and after that speak.

for the non french i wish you good luck.....

I've summarized it in post 6389.

 

[Parthu]

RCS too will be reduced in the UPG. program.

Not by any margin to write home about. We aren't doing any structural changes, or tinkering with airframe metallurgy.

It still won't even be comparable to Rafale RCS, let alone anything stealthier.

Of course still would be far more than J-20. However, MKI UPG. will have very advance capability to work with CCAs something Rafale will only get from F5 onwards. And with CCAs, it very well may obtain first look, first shoot against VLO jets like J-20.

The same thing applies vice versa as well. J-20 will also be getting CCAs. In the end, the difference in look-first/shoot-first will remain where it is. It's not like you will upgrade but the opponent stays as they are. PLAAF will actually be upgrading & iterating much faster than us.

What we plan to achieve with MKI UPG, the Chinese have already achieved at least 80% of that with platforms like J-11B and J-16, which will of course improve further by the time Super MKI comes.

Another point is AI enable software algorithms of the Virupaksha, that'll be tuned to detect very small RCS target that fly at a particular speed. Because of the advancements in software algorithms, Virupaksha would be able to filter out very small targets like birds, insects while being able to track VLO targets(using doppler shift to gaze their velocity to decide track or filter).

Same same. Why do you assume the Chinese won't have something similar?

10.5KW cooling may mean over 25KW peak power, so not bad at all. And thanks to GaN, it shall be able to operate at high power far longer than GaAs.

Again - that applies to all radars. F35 radar can operate at peak levels too, which would be above what the cooling system can efficiently deal with, if needed.

That's all taken into account when desigining a cooling system. But the differences in levels will remain. If you have triple the cooling capacity, your peak transmit power can also be much higher than what MKI's radar can manage. Keep in mind that F-35 radar is a primary Electronic Attack instrument. It's part of the mission.

Our MRFA timeline is for F5.

Judging by the pace things are going, yeah.

But that's why I think it's pointless. Too little, too late.

We already argued about that though, no point going over all that again.

There is no plan to convert the existing Rafales for nuclear delivery. Rafales via MRFA will be used instead, as it will come with all the infra necessary to make the integration ourselves. Until then, M2000 and Jag remain the main nuclear vectors. Although the IAF has said they can make some Rafales available for nuclear delivery, no such attempt has been made yet.

In any case, Rafale has to finish about 10 years before it can be considered for it.

Rafale has to mature in IAF hands first. But I have on good authority that this is indeed the plan. Rafale is the intended replacement for M2K/Jag in airborne nuclear delivery role. Some of the ISEs were never publicized. Some were likely specifically meant for this.

It's got nothing to do with MRFA. The airborne leg of N-triad cannot be held hostage by MRFA, which might or might not even happen.

Obivously, the opposite.

Nah, N-delivery is about national survival. It's a high-level mission.

AMCA? No.

AMCA, yes.

But eventually.

For the foreseeable future, we're looking at a stand-off range missile carried by Rafale.

 

[randomradio]

Judging by the pace things are going, yeah.

But that's why I think it's pointless. Too little, too late.

We already argued about that though, no point going over all that again.

It' actually the right time for F5, not for the other jets in MRFA. But yeah, no point going on about it.

Rafale has to mature in IAF hands first. But I have on good authority that this is indeed the plan. Rafale is the intended replacement for M2K/Jag in airborne nuclear delivery role. Some of the ISEs were never publicized. Some were likely specifically meant for this.

It's got nothing to do with MRFA. The airborne leg of N-triad cannot be held hostage by MRFA, which might or might not even happen.

If a different jet wins MRFA, then the old Rafales will be modified for nuke delivery.

Nah, N-delivery is about national survival. It's a high-level mission.

Not as per the IAF. And this is straight from them.

AMCA, yes.

But eventually.

For the foreseeable future, we're looking at a stand-off range missile carried by Rafale.

Any aircraft can be equipped with a nuclear stand-off missile. You specifically need OFC-equipped jets for a gravity bomb.

 

[Parthu]

If a different jet wins MRFA, then the old Rafales will be modified for nuke delivery.

Wouldn't that be the case either way? Even if Rafale F4/F5 wins MRFA, the current F3R/ISE config would still be more proven & more reliable.

Not as per the IAF. And this is straight from them.

?

N-delivery is a SFC mission. IAF is just required to provide the assets & the pilots. Just like IN's SSBNs for deterrence patrol missions.

Any aircraft can be equipped with a nuclear stand-off missile. You specifically need OFC-equipped jets for a gravity bomb.

Standoff range will be an asset, but at what range it's actually employed depends on various factors. Either way, EMP hardening is a must, just in case.

You still need the aircraft to have a high enough degree of operational reliability. Basically, you need to figure out all the niggles it has.

 

[Speedster1]

The 40 MKIs modified for Brahmos-A some years ago could well have gotten hardened electronics for the N-delivery role too.

According to Sandeep Unnithan, we've been working on a nuke-tipped A2G missile known only as the 'Air Launched Article'. Range: 200km.

The secret 'K' missile family

www.indiatoday.in

 

[Rajput Lion]

The 40 MKIs modified for Brahmos-A some years ago could well have gotten hardened electronics for the N-delivery role too.

According to Sandeep Unnithan, we've been working on a nuke-tipped A2G missile known only as the 'Air Launched Article'. Range: 200km.

The secret 'K' missile family

www.indiatoday.in

No nukes for BrahMos till date.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Since Rafale F 4 OR F 5 are very far away , Can we use SU 30 with Two Heavy Band Jamming Pods as Escort Jammers like F 18 Growlers

 

[Speedster1]

No nukes for BrahMos till date.

No relation to the Brahmos. This could be a clean-sheet, classified prog. Sandeep talks about a hypersonic missile in his India Today report. Though, it could've morphed into something entirely different by now.
With the AD environment we face on both borders, N-gravity bombs just won't cut it.

 

[_Anonymous_]

The 40 MKIs modified for Brahmos-A some years ago could well have gotten hardened electronics for the N-delivery role too.

According to Sandeep Unnithan, we've been working on a nuke-tipped A2G missile known only as the 'Air Launched Article'. Range: 200km.

The secret 'K' missile family

www.indiatoday.in

Weren't there media reports a decade back about 40 odd MKIs being deputed to the SFC ? No clue if they were the ones which underwent structural changes to be equipped with Brahmos A .

In fact I remember reading about them out here or in the previous forum in some detail. Besides I don't think we'd deploy 36 Rafales for such a role considering they're the only ones we have.

It'd be possible to do so once we had them in great numbers , say > 150 nos , which only means all those ISE & EMP hardening they've undergone is to have a redundancy for the MKIs , a Plan B as it were apart from other duties they're expected to discharge.

No relation to the Brahmos. This could be a clean-sheet, classified prog. Sandeep talks about a hypersonic missile in his India Today report. Though, it could've morphed into something entirely different by now.
With the AD environment we face on both borders, N-gravity bombs just won't cut it.

Could be the Rudram series & if hypersonic is the need then we'd have to wait for the HCM for the derivatives of the HCM to come out. However the latter seems plausible only for China.

Frankly I don't see any usefulness in deploying an HCM against Paxtan as all their targets are within 500-700 kms of our IB except Quetta.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

I'd be very interested in knowing the reaction of @Picdelamirand-oil to this article since RST is boringly predictable & playing strictly true to type by being more French than le Francais themselves on the issue.

Too bad he's not being compensated for his efforts by Dassault.

I hadn't seen the request, but why me?

Your IAF officers are more familiar with the Rafale than I am now, so ask them for their opinion on this IFRI document and they'll laugh in your face at certain passages. But it's true that France has a dramatic shortage of weapons. As far as MCO is concerned, this is much less true since we awarded vertical contracts to Dassault, which are similar to your PBL. This shows that the authors are rehashing old information, and it's not just in this area.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

 

[Lolwa]

That's like saying now that we have S400, we don't need air defence fighters anymore. That's silly.

China has VHF radars too, severral models. They've been part of the conversation wrt stealth for decades at this point. They don't negate the need to possess stealthy aircraft of your own. Ask PLAAF. Why do you think they're building J-20s and J-35s if US F-35s and F-22s can be countered by VHF radars?

Chinese Stealth Radar

www.sps-aviation.com

We're still new to the game.



For the n-th time on this forum, GaN does not magically make your radar 5x more powerful.

It still depends on how much electrical output your system is capable of generating. On the Super MKI, we're not going for a new engine, just the same AL-31FP, rebuilt with new materials to improve service life. There won't be a massive increase in electrical output like on 5th gen engines like F35's F135.

So in terms of radar power, we know we're only looking at a cooling capacity of 10.5 kW...that's only about 1/3rd of F-35's current GaAs setup and only 1/8th of F-35 Block-4 setup. MKI's AESA will be big, but not really that powerful. It'll be more powerful than Rafale's radar though.

Effectively, we're just looking at an increase in terms of power efficiency with GaN (compared to GaAs AESA). On a 4.5 gen platform, GaN doesn't really give that much more power to work with than what GaAs would have allowed. If you're into computers, GaN on a non-5th gen platform is essentially like hooking up a RTX 4090 to a 500W PSU and a Core i3 CPU. You need a 1000W PSU & a Core i9 to take full advantage of what the 4090 can do.

But the bigger problem with MKI is that it's got a huge RCS in of itself. That means there's essentially no way that it can obtain look-first/shoot-first against a J-20B.



Ummm...yes. Of course we'd have learnt a good deal by operating the plane, but we didn't obtain any ToT from the Rafale per se.

The techs that go into AMCA & MKI UPG were well into development by the time we received the first Rafale. Israel actually has a lot more contribution to that knowledge base than France.

The biggest misconception we have on these forums and in general online discourse is that we don't need a fifth gen fighter. When we are in no position to make one. AMCA should have been a priority the moment j-20 became operational. Instead we are just waiting for the prototypes to come. We need the f-35 and we might need the su-57 too. It's inevitable. The AMCA can't fulfill the role of the su-57. It can fulfill the role of the f-35.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

The F-35, the only Western stealth fighter in production, has a similar radar cross section to the F-117 - and while its electronic warfare systems and radar absorbent coatings are more advanced this is likely to be little consolation given how much more sophisticated the air defence systems it is expected to face air relative to the S-125 - several generations and several decades ahead. The limitations of stealth and lessons learned from Yugoslavia may well explain the Russian military’s very limited investments in this technology, which have been neglected entirely for its own modern strike fighters. While the F-22 Raptor currently in U.S. service is a highly survivable aircraft with or without stealth, by virtue of its manoeuvrability, speed and high operational altitude, the F-35’s slow speed, low altitude ceiling and relatively poor manoeuvrability have led to the repeated raising of the question as to whether it too, like the F-117, relies overly heavily on stealth, and to what extent it is actually survivable for modern air defence penetration missions.

How Vulnerable are Stealth Aircraft Today? A Look Back 20 Years After Yugoslavia Destroyed America’s F-117

March 27th marks the anniversary of one of the most prolific military events of the 1990s, in which the United States Military's first stealth fighter the F-117 Nighthawk

militarywatchmagazine.com