Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions

Dude calling INS Betwa a frontline guided missile destroyer highlights his credibility pretty well
He's a strategist not a naval warfare or air force warfare specialist. You've to see things & people for what they are not what you perceive them to be .

As far as RST's usual blah goes we had his beloved Pilatus's selection for which ACM N.A.K. Browne ought to be complimented & has he forgotten the Westland saga for which ACM Tyagi was jailed.

Besides there's the issue of selecting a newly built Russian TF to power the IJT which @Milspec has hinted many a times in the past was due to dodgy decision making by another ACM.
 

TONBO's BNVD night vision system integrated with MSA Gallet aviation helmets:
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General Jérôme Bellanger, the Chief of Staff of the French Air Force Provides an Update: November 2024


The despatch of an undisclosed number of Mirage 2000-5s to help the Ukrainian service could be offset by shipping Rafales built for export clients to the French service, he said.

We would take the exports which have not been signed,” he said.

The speeded up delivery depended on Dassault Aviation, the prime contractor which has increased production of the Rafale for client nations such as India, he said.
 

It's within context. The Rafale cannot match the F-35 in BVR in its F3R format. The F3R is way behind in every way, avionics-wise, which is very likely to be the version France has been using in NATO exercises. For example, the radar is an analog design, so it's quite old, and no IRST. Even DDM-NG is too old. We are comparing a configuration released in 2012 with a far more modern jet.

The F4 manages to plug this gap. It has an updated radar with cooperative capabilities meant to detect stealth targets from long range. The new IRST is a plus. This aircraft is still being fielded so it's likely not been tested in foreign exercises yet.

And then there's the F5.
 
It's within context. The Rafale cannot match the F-35 in BVR in its F3R format. The F3R is way behind in every way, avionics-wise, which is very likely to be the version France has been using in NATO exercises. For example, the radar is an analog design, so it's quite old, and no IRST. Even DDM-NG is too old. We are comparing a configuration released in 2012 with a far more modern jet.

The F4 manages to plug this gap. It has an updated radar with cooperative capabilities meant to detect stealth targets from long range. The new IRST is a plus. This aircraft is still being fielded so it's likely not been tested in foreign exercises yet.

And then there's the F5.

There is an Article in French language , which I have posted above , accepting the Rafale's Shortcomings
 
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Here's the link to the report.

Long story short, the report points towards deficiencies in the AAE that do not affect the IAF.

1. They suggest a dedicated SEAD weapon for Rafale before 2030 instead of 2035. They want an ALBM like RudraM II/III to be introduced on Rafale. They also want a reprogrammable DEAD weapon, which apparently SCALP cannot do.

2. They want Rafale upgraded to defeat stealth jets, which is an ongoing process. This is why they gave the example of F-35 in NATO exercises.

3. They question the delivery of F4.2/4.3 by 2030, the F4 version with the completed anti-stealth capabilities. And something due to issues around the M2000D upgrade. I think they are complaining about how the overall fighter numbers have reduced due to handing over M2000-5s with A2A capability to Ukraine followed by secondhand Rafales to Greece and Croatia, made worse by the fact that M2000D won't get A2A replacement capability in time, or something to that tune. They are basically saying France won't have 225 jets by 2030 and they are worried that the 5th tranche of 42 Rafales with anti-stealth capabilities will be delayed.

4. To add to 3, they want the air force to buy more bombs. So not enough jets and not enough bombs, having used them a lot in various theaters. Plus some missiles are ageing. They also want more high-end hardware delivered for older Rafales.

5. They want NGF to be a dedicated air superiority fighter instead of a carrier-capable multirole jet and continue using the Rafale in a complementary role.

6. They want small CCAs, USAF style, for mass.

7. They want France to develop offensive jamming capabilities against radar satellites and precision weapons. And they would like the Rafale to carry these capabilities in a pod, apart form other aircraft like refuelers.

8. They want anti-drone defenses for bases to deal with mass drone attacks, like AAA. They want their base personnel and equipment dispersed too.

9. They want a dedicated ELINT aircraft.

10. They want to improve training.

11. They want the M2000D upgraded to India's M2000I standards. Similarly, they want a towed decoy on Rafale.

12. They want a few thousand Harop, Shahed type drones.

13. They want a Rapid Dragon style setup.

Only points 1, 2, and 6 affect India. Maybe 13 too, 'cause only the US has it. Let's see if India goes for 6, but 2 is dependent on the French. We don't have to worry about the rest.
 
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There is an Article in French language , which I have posted above , accepting the Rafale's Shortcomings

Yep, posted the summary of the report. Pretty much nothing said in it affects India or MRFA's objectives.

We have our own SEAD/DEAD capabilities alongside all the other stuff listed in the report.

Our main problems are different, getting MRFA done and getting new engines.
 
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Yep, posted the summary of the report. Pretty much nothing said in it affects India or MRFA's objectives.

We have our own SEAD/DEAD capabilities alongside all the other stuff listed in the report.

Our main problems are different, getting MRFA done and getting new engines.

If Rafale can't defeat F-35 in BVR then it won't survive against J-20/J-35/J-36/J-50 as well. Looks like Rafale's ACT was just an overhyped trick which can't do s*it against 5th gen passive stealth.

@Parthu

You're completely correct here.
 
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I'd be very interested in knowing the reaction of @Picdelamirand-oil to this article since RST is boringly predictable & playing strictly true to type by being more French than le Francais themselves on the issue.

Too bad he's not being compensated for his efforts by Dassault.
 
1738155557363.gif

Rafale fanboys are slowly realising they have been sold an overpriced banana. Rafale is probably the 3rd or 4th best ac available in intenational mkt as of 2025, but its the most expensive to buy. Navy's 26 rafales will come at >$300 million per aircraft.

Nothing can compensate for the lack of stealth shaping in rafale. All the word salad on this website written to present its spectra as a magical pill that can compensate for its lack of stealth shaping is going down the drain. You cannot beat physics.

Indian govt bought Rafale for only 1 reason - they wanted a western fighter that wasn't american. Essentially, a geopolitical deal, just like stryker deal[irony:ROFLMAO:]. This deal was probably helped by the bribes paid to IAF officers to tilt them towards rafale over its competition. Others might have paid some bribes too, but Dassault is known to be very generous in this area.

Rafale was good enough in 2016, not today. With PAF buying chinese stealth fighters, we are back to where we started. The rumour mill of su-57 vs F-35 competition is alive as well. If GoI persists with its principle to avoid buying american fighters, you might see su-57 in IAF colours soon. Though I would personally bet on F-35 as su-57 purchase might not go down well with the orange-man in charge now. He can be easily bribed, so who knows what might happen???

All this kanjad-naach would have been avoided had this country been more serious about AMCA funding in 2018 itself. But that happened in march 2024. Incredible!!! Our kanjad bureaucrats are thinking of short-cuts of solving this problem i.e. buy another plane from outside, instead of putting all their energy into AMCA. But, if our bureaucrats had brains, India wouldn't be facing a lot of the problems we face today, would it??
 
View attachment 39977
Rafale fanboys are slowly realising they have been sold an overpriced banana. Rafale is probably the 3rd or 4th best ac available in intenational mkt as of 2025, but its the most expensive to buy. Navy's 26 rafales will come at >$300 million per aircraft.

Nothing can compensate for the lack of stealth shaping in rafale. All the word salad on this website written to present its spectra as a magical pill that can compensate for its lack of stealth shaping is going down the drain. You cannot beat physics.

Indian govt bought Rafale for only 1 reason - they wanted a western fighter that wasn't american. Essentially, a geopolitical deal, just like stryker deal[irony:ROFLMAO:]. This deal was probably helped by the bribes paid to IAF officers to tilt them towards rafale over its competition. Others might have paid some bribes too, but Dassault is known to be very generous in this area.

Rafale was good enough in 2016, not today. With PAF buying chinese stealth fighters, we are back to where we started. The rumour mill of su-57 vs F-35 competition is alive as well. If GoI persists with its principle to avoid buying american fighters, you might see su-57 in IAF colours soon. Though I would personally bet on F-35 as su-57 purchase might not go down well with the orange-man in charge now. He can be easily bribed, so who knows what might happen???

All this kanjad-naach would have been avoided had this country been more serious about AMCA funding in 2018 itself. But that happened in march 2024. Incredible!!! Our kanjad bureaucrats are thinking of short-cuts of solving this problem i.e. buy another plane from outside, instead of putting all their energy into AMCA. But, if our bureaucrats had brains, India wouldn't be facing a lot of the problems we face today, would it??

Su 57 is improving very slowly

F 35 not available to India since we bought S 400

We bought Rafale , because at that point ie in 2016 , it was clearly superior to Su 30 , ie we didn't have much of a choice

Now we understand what needs to be done for AMCA and Su 30 upgrades

AMCA will not Manifest just by spending money

Technology development takes time and efforts

Look at the struggles of Tejas MK 1A

The same scientists and engineers are involved in Tejas MK 2 and AMCA
 
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Yep, posted the summary of the report. Pretty much nothing said in it affects India or MRFA's objectives.

We have our own SEAD/DEAD capabilities alongside all the other stuff listed in the report.

Our main problems are different, getting MRFA done and getting new engines.

IF MRFA is inevitable , can
We look at SU 57

But the irony is that for AMCA engine technology, We are Negotiating with Safran and Rolls Royce

So if Safran is selected , A Rafale order is guaranteed
 
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If Rafale can't defeat F-35 in BVR then it won't survive against J-20/J-35/J-36/J-50 as well. Looks like Rafale's ACT was just an overhyped trick which can't do s*it against 5th gen passive stealth.

@Parthu

You're completely correct here.

The video's taking the report at face value, there's no analysis of the information.

Even before the report showed up, I had pointed out that the F3 cannot defeat the F-35. So it's nothing new. Back then I used to say that the "old F4" with GaN and 360 deg radar is necessary, which is basically the current F5. And that MRFA must be for F5 or it's pointless.

The DEDIRA program meant to lower the Rafale's RCS seems to be for a version not yet tested under NATO, meant for the F4 version that's yet to be delivered. Right now DGA is only taking deliveries of early F4. I had questioned Picdel about the F3R's DEDIRA integration as well, 'cause F3R was released in 2018 whereas DEDIRA was supposed to happen in 2020 and later, which I believe is for F4.

If DEDIRA is meant for F4, along with anti-stealth sensors, then the F4.2/4.3 will be the anti-stealth version, not F3R. It makes sense to introduce lower RCS and anti-stealth cooperative targeting with the F4. But in order to keep pushing the envelope and maintain parity/superiority with the F-35's upcoming and later blocks, it needs F5. GaN, more antennas, greater coverage, new IR sensors, new engine etc.

F4 also comes with a new digital antenna for SPECTRA, and this is probably what's necessary to achieve DEDIRA.
a new digital jammer for the SPECTRA self-defence / electronic warfare suite.

In any case, based on what's been revealed, without DEDIRA, Rafale is only RO with weapons; 0.1m2 class. With DEDIRA, it's LO; 0.01-0.001m2 class. But the F-35 is VLO; 0.0001m2 class. So even with DEDIRA, the F3R/F4 will still be 10 to 100 times less stealthy without further evolution. So let's see if the F5 will match it or exceed it.

So when operational French pilots say Rafale is not a stealth jet, it appears they are not yet operating DEDIRA. The report is also hinting at the same thing. So they are being honest, but are also talking about a version that's not yet operational.

From what I know, F4 will be fully developed from 2024-2027 via 4 standards; 4.1 to 4.4. And sometime within that period it will have DEDIRA. And the delivery of DGA and IN's orders for the final version will happen between 2027 and 2030. Likely 2028 for IN.

Don't take information at face value when it's not specific. Dassault has simply and quite uncharacteristically released information about upcoming advanced technologies way too early, so we were easily fooled. They started talking about DEDIRA in 2016 AFAIK, and is likely meant for 2026+. And they started talking specifics about F5 only 2 years ago, meant for 2032+. They are using new marketing tactics I guess. I don't believe it's ever happened before.
 
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Here's the link to the report.

Long story short, the report points towards deficiencies in the AAE that do not affect the IAF.

1. They suggest a dedicated SEAD weapon for Rafale before 2030 instead of 2035. They want an ALBM like RudraM II/III to be introduced on Rafale. They also want a reprogrammable DEAD weapon, which apparently SCALP cannot do.

2. They want Rafale upgraded to defeat stealth jets, which is an ongoing process. This is why they gave the example of F-35 in NATO exercises.

3. They question the delivery of F4.2/4.3 by 2030, the F4 version with the completed anti-stealth capabilities. And something due to issues around the M2000D upgrade. I think they are complaining about how the overall fighter numbers have reduced due to handing over M2000-5s with A2A capability to Ukraine followed by secondhand Rafales to Greece and Croatia, made worse by the fact that M2000D won't get A2A replacement capability in time, or something to that tune. They are basically saying France won't have 225 jets by 2030 and they are worried that the 5th tranche of 42 Rafales with anti-stealth capabilities will be delayed.

4. To add to 3, they want the air force to buy more bombs. So not enough jets and not enough bombs, having used them a lot in various theaters. Plus some missiles are ageing. They also want more high-end hardware delivered for older Rafales.

5. They want NGF to be a dedicated air superiority fighter instead of a carrier-capable multirole jet and continue using the Rafale in a complementary role.

6. They want small CCAs, USAF style, for mass.

7. They want France to develop offensive jamming capabilities against radar satellites and precision weapons. And they would like the Rafale to carry these capabilities in a pod, apart form other aircraft like refuelers.

8. They want anti-drone defenses for bases to deal with mass drone attacks, like AAA. They want their base personnel and equipment dispersed too.

9. They want a dedicated ELINT aircraft.

10. They want to improve training.

11. They want the M2000D upgraded to India's M2000I standards. Similarly, they want a towed decoy on Rafale.

12. They want a few thousand Harop, Shahed type drones.

13. They want a Rapid Dragon style setup.

Only points 1, 2, and 6 affect India. Maybe 13 too, 'cause only the US has it. Let's see if India goes for 6, but 2 is dependent on the French. We don't have to worry about the rest.
M2000D only has self defense air to air capacity. A bit more potent than with a pure short range missile (AIM9 X or Asraam) but limited by the seeker only range capacity.
The radar is unable to see a tanker at more than a few kilometers ! It was made for terrain following.
The self protection sytem is not really upgraded.
M2000D MLU was made for african field, with poor AtoA opposition. But now than we are kicked off nearly all africa, it's useless.

For the rest, it is a complain of pilots that always want more birds, more thrust, more everything. As I'm french, it is easier to understand the full article. The reality is far more balanced than the sole tittle.

But the ammunition stock is in fact very low, and not only in air force. SEAD and DEAD was forgoten. Money is the key... (in fact lack of money).
 
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I'd be very interested in knowing the reaction of @Picdelamirand-oil to this article since RST is boringly predictable & playing strictly true to type by being more French than le Francais themselves on the issue.

Too bad he's not being compensated for his efforts by Dassault.
I let Pic answering.

you are not french, and more probably only read the very small free part of the news paper.
As I'm french and open the full source document, reality is far more balanced.
So stay calm and take a cup of tea.

oups : another F35 was lost this morning.... Un pilote s’éjecte in extremis avant le crash de son avion F-35 en Alaska
"autorities say a in flight malfunction". :unsure:
View attachment 39977
Rafale fanboys are slowly realising they have been sold an overpriced banana. Rafale is probably the 3rd or 4th best ac available in intenational mkt as of 2025, but its the most expensive to buy. Navy's 26 rafales will come at >$300 million per aircraft.

Nothing can compensate for the lack of stealth shaping in rafale. All the word salad on this website written to present its spectra as a magical pill that can compensate for its lack of stealth shaping is going down the drain. You cannot beat physics.

Indian govt bought Rafale for only 1 reason - they wanted a western fighter that wasn't american. Essentially, a geopolitical deal, just like stryker deal[irony:ROFLMAO:]. This deal was probably helped by the bribes paid to IAF officers to tilt them towards rafale over its competition. Others might have paid some bribes too, but Dassault is known to be very generous in this area.

Rafale was good enough in 2016, not today. With PAF buying chinese stealth fighters, we are back to where we started. The rumour mill of su-57 vs F-35 competition is alive as well. If GoI persists with its principle to avoid buying american fighters, you might see su-57 in IAF colours soon. Though I would personally bet on F-35 as su-57 purchase might not go down well with the orange-man in charge now. He can be easily bribed, so who knows what might happen???

All this kanjad-naach would have been avoided had this country been more serious about AMCA funding in 2018 itself. But that happened in march 2024. Incredible!!! Our kanjad bureaucrats are thinking of short-cuts of solving this problem i.e. buy another plane from outside, instead of putting all their energy into AMCA. But, if our bureaucrats had brains, India wouldn't be facing a lot of the problems we face today, would it??
You're right.
This is why a new contract for 26 will be inked soon, and another batch in on the agenda for indian air force.

After all they only have to face China....
 
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If Rafale can't defeat F-35 in BVR then it won't survive against J-20/J-35/J-36/J-50 as well. Looks like Rafale's ACT was just an overhyped trick which can't do s*it against 5th gen passive stealth.

@Parthu

You're completely correct here.

There's nothing in the report that level-headed people didn't already know.

The disappointment/realization that some are facing is purely because they were taken in by all the magical, mystical qualities that were attributed to Rafale & SPECTRA by fanboys in their unofficial capacity...backed by certain, carefully stage-managed OEM statements (the OEM which of course has a vested interest in selling the plane).

Now they admit the IAF version we have now (F3R) or even the one offered in MRFA (F4.X) is insufficient to counter J-20B. But for some reason all these years they were pushing us to get ToT for making this variant - knowing the possibility that even if F5 can somehow counter 5th gen**, it may not be possible to upgrade existing F3/F4 airframes to F5 as that standard might incorporate structural changes to accommodate new equipment.

OTOH, he problem with waiting for F5 is that it can only be realistically delivered by the mid-2030s, so we'll have to be taking delivery of MRFA and the far more survivable AMCA simultaneously! So IMO, F5 ToT actually makes even less sense than F4.

The F5 is for countries that already operate Rafale, but don't plan on inducting a 5th gen platform (like France, which is going directly to 6th gen NGF/FCAS). Even though F5 can't really substitute a real 5th gen, France has no other go - they don't plan on inducting a real stealth plane with internal weapons before ~2045, so they need something that can tide them over in the meantime, even though it's just half-a$$ing it.

But our plans are different - we plan on inducting the stealthy AMCA by around the same time France plans on inducting F5. So F5 doesn't really make sense for us. It would be too much expense for a sub-optimal capability. The F5 isn't something you invest in if you have the option of inducting an actual stealthy airframe with internal weapons in that same timeframe.

**I still maintain that F5 can't really do it. Not even counting the possibility that by that time we'd probably be facing a J-20C with CCAs acting as forward observers & effectors...

FAIHhdzWUAIWnm-.jpg:large


...the concept of ACT or digital stealth cannot apply uniformly to all threats. There are theatres & opponents against which it would be less effective than others. With the kind of sensor density & tech we would be facing with China (and we won't have F-35s, F-22s & B-21s fighting on our side like the French will if going up against Russia), ACT cannot really be counted upon to work.

Spoof incoming missile seekers? Doable.

Make your plane stealthy against modern AESAs? Not really.

Indian govt bought Rafale for only 1 reason - they wanted a western fighter that wasn't american. Essentially, a geopolitical deal, just like stryker deal[irony:ROFLMAO:]. This deal was probably helped by the bribes paid to IAF officers to tilt them towards rafale over its competition. Others might have paid some bribes too, but Dassault is known to be very generous in this area.

The 2016 deal, in my opinion, was pushed through for one primary reason above everything else - nuclear delivery.

Everything else, like A2A, A2G, was secondary or tertiary.

All other planes on offer at the time were either not survivable, and if survivable, wouldn't allow for nuclear integration. So we really had no choice but go for 36 Rafales. AMCA will have to take over this role in the future as Rafale won't remain survivable for very long - much shorter than we thought.

But now that we've already bought into the platform, we need to get 62 more to do justice to the investment (36 IAF, 26 IN). But making further long-term investments in the platform is not worth it. Which is why I say MRFA & ToT for a foreign 4.5 gen jet makes no sense.

Investment should only go toward the Tejas Mk-II and AMCA platforms. The latter would be properly survivable into the future for frontline duties (at least much better than any MRFA contender, that's for sure), while the former gives us a reliable indigenous jet that can take care of all the low-end duties and can be affordably produced in any number we want.
 
There's nothing in the report that level-headed people didn't already know.

The disappointment/realization that some are facing is purely because they were taken in by all the magical, mystical qualities that were attributed to Rafale & SPECTRA by fanboys in their unofficial capacity...backed by certain, carefully stage-managed OEM statements (the OEM which of course has a vested interest in selling the plane).

Now they admit the IAF version we have now (F3R) or even the one offered in MRFA (F4.X) is insufficient to counter J-20B. But for some reason all these years they were pushing us to get ToT for making this variant - knowing the possibility that even if F5 can somehow counter 5th gen**, it may not be possible to upgrade existing F3/F4 airframes to F5 as that standard might incorporate structural changes to accommodate new equipment.

OTOH, he problem with waiting for F5 is that it can only be realistically delivered by the mid-2030s, so we'll have to be taking delivery of MRFA and the far more survivable AMCA simultaneously! So IMO, F5 ToT actually makes even less sense than F4.

The F5 is for countries that already operate Rafale, but don't plan on inducting a 5th gen platform (like France, which is going directly to 6th gen NGF/FCAS). Even though F5 can't really substitute a real 5th gen, France has no other go - they don't plan on inducting a real stealth plane with internal weapons before ~2045, so they need something that can tide them over in the meantime, even though it's just half-a$$ing it.

But our plans are different - we plan on inducting the stealthy AMCA by around the same time France plans on inducting F5. So F5 doesn't really make sense for us. It would be too much expense for a sub-optimal capability. The F5 isn't something you invest in if you have the option of inducting an actual stealthy airframe with internal weapons in that same timeframe.

**I still maintain that F5 can't really do it. Not even counting the possibility that by that time we'd probably be facing a J-20C with CCAs acting as forward observers & effectors...

FAIHhdzWUAIWnm-.jpg:large


...the concept of ACT or digital stealth cannot apply uniformly to all threats. There are theatres & opponents against which it would be less effective than others. With the kind of sensor density & tech we would be facing with China (and we won't have F-35s, F-22s & B-21s fighting on our side like the French will if going up against Russia), ACT cannot really be counted upon to work.

Spoof incoming missile seekers? Doable.

Make your plane stealthy against modern AESAs? Not really.



The 2016 deal, in my opinion, was pushed through for one primary reason above everything else - nuclear delivery.

Everything else, like A2A, A2G, was secondary or tertiary.

All other planes on offer at the time were either not survivable, and if survivable, wouldn't allow for nuclear integration. So we really had no choice but go for 36 Rafales. AMCA will have to take over this role in the future as Rafale won't remain survivable for very long - much shorter than we thought.

But now that we've already bought into the platform, we need to get 62 more to do justice to the investment (36 IAF, 26 IN). But making further long-term investments in the platform is not worth it. Which is why I say MRFA & ToT for a foreign 4.5 gen jet makes no sense.

Investment should only go toward the Tejas Mk-II and AMCA platforms. The latter would be properly survivable into the future for frontline duties (at least much better than any MRFA contender, that's for sure), while the former gives us a reliable indigenous jet that can take care of all the low-end duties and can be affordably produced in any number we want.

J 20 can be countered by New VHF ground based radar , unveiled yesterday by BEL

And detected by GAN based Su 30 radar

A news report of F 35's new radar ie APG 85 has described GAN Radars capability

Do you really think that without a close look at Rafale F 3 R , we could have developed AMCA or upgraded SU 30