https://companies.defenceindex.org/data/docs/english.pdf
How credible is this ranking, it says DA has lower reputation than HAL.
How credible is this ranking, it says DA has lower reputation than HAL.
Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions
- Thread starter Herciv
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lets look at history to examine,
1) British couldnt capture Punjab for over a 100 years, then Punjab finance minister lowered & cut fundings drastically, result British walked over where they always failed. Finance minister got gifted J&K by british for his service
2) India was a military powerhouse, with lots of defence production houses post WW2, nehru cut defences to 1.62%, under increased trust with Chinese, then 1962 war happened. He believed lower military, means more for development. Now Modi ji is doing another Nehru
Isnt situation same now. Honestly Military & Economy has to go hand in hand, any weak link leads to disaster. There is a reason why except the banana republic all countries have defense at 2.5-3% GDP minimum
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true, but that not over & above Defense budget, but part of same, now more orders given to Private industry under mod ji, except only Ordnance factories earlier & I appreciate that drive of Modi Ji. Congress is only trying to rake up Rafale for Election purpose, will die off post 2019 elections
Our purchases during the Modi tenure has been really good. Just make a list of all the stuff we have ordered in the last 4 years, it will tell you all you need to know. This is not like the examples you gave. A huge chunk of our money got diverted towards salary and pensions, which should also be seen as an important investment because higher salary helps attract better quality manpower. Considering our purchases along with the salary boost, we are doing well.
And we can't afford 2.5-3% in defence spending yet. Our defence spending vs total govt expenditure is already pretty good. Modi's total defence spending plan for capital acquisition until 2025 is $250B.
I wouldn't worry too much about money. In a decade from now, the military will have more money than they know what to do with. We will be signing deals that are as large as the US's or China's. Until then our current expenditure is more than enough. Pakistan can no longer afford to keep up while China is also facing its own modernisation troubles, which they will be able to fix only after 2030.
All this presupposes the fact that our economy would be booming and thriving in a few years. This would to a large extent be contingent on the kind of government we get next year. You can forget about Benchmarking us against China or Pakistan In the next 5 years.
Why? In the case of the former, in spite of all those doomsday predictions about their shadow banking or their debt to GDP ratio or even the US tarrifs, they haven't done too badly ( in fact, we seem up to be up to our heads w.r.t the banking sector and general condition of the economy. What's worse, the party heading the previous government which has landed us in this present spot is now gaining ground) .In the case of the latter, come hell or high water, the percentage of defence spending VIs a vis the GDP remains around 2.5% and will continue to be so.
One doesn't need to increase with no rhyme or reason, but atleast pay heed to the suggestions of the commissions they created in the first place. The commission report starts with the statement that the suggestions must be implemented in its entirety and not in bits and pieces. I don't think you are in any position to say that there is enough money when all the services have openly admitted that is not the case.
We definitely need a foundation for our economy first but this government has found the money for statues, election campaigning and advertisements. Most basic question, how many defense ministers have we had? What stopped them from maintaing a single capable DM last 4 years? What is the change with respect to the previous situation where civil staff runs the MoD and are able to reject/delay decisions due to their lack of knowledge in defense matters. How could a Ministry of Finance official reject the MMRT deal citing a modern Airbus aircraft is more expensive than a 70s Russian design? Where are the light helicopters for Army/IAF/IN? Where are the ASW helicopters? Both 24 and 124? Where are the P75Is? Where are the LHDs? Where are the MCMVs? Where are the FSSs? Where is the approval for IAC-II(considering it will take a minimum 5 years before construction can begin after approval)? C-295 transports? MGS for Army? Infantry vehicles? The list goes on, so there's definitely a lot we couldn't do because we didn't have enough money.
They might be planning to spend 2.5 Trillion in next 5 years, it doesn't matter. What matters is what they have done within last 4+ years. I'm not saying they have done nothing but for a government that came in criticising UPA and calling themself nationalists, they clearly haven't done enough. Maybe they can change that if there is a next term, starting with replacing a mouth piece for an actual Defence minister.
Good Day!
Criticising things when you are in opposition is one thing, governing the right way when you have the power, is another.
BJP criticised Rafale the fighter, MMRCA, delays in procurement and cancellations, before they were in power. Sadly did a lot of the same, partially even showing worse performance in the defence field now.
And 1 important point where they failed in defence completely, is the less government, more governance claim!
We have seen the Finance Minister and now a party spokesperson take over the Defence Minister position, as a part time job, which is ridiculous. India and our forces, deserve a proper DM, that is committed full time to support the forces and provide solutions to improve things. Only Parrikar deserves to be called DM and he quit after the Rafale deal.
They had all the chances to show better support than UPA showed (which was not that bad at all, from today's point of view), but so far they failed to deliver. Let's see if the 2nd term will make things better?
If anyone questions why the government fails to defend the Rafale deal properly, just watch this talk show and the quality of the BJP participants knowledge:
i am apalled by the incompetence of the govt. in the perception management .if all the news shared by the press regarding supreme court hearing /conversation i am simply in a state of shock
they should have been better prepared apart from the fact they should have clearly stated in no uncertain terms
1) it is a case of judiciary overreach it can look into the allegation of corruption but cant be seen as controlling/curbing the executive discretionary power if doing so that will be akin to challenging the mandate the govt.has got,better to have robot rather than the man.
2)if reliance indeed has been selected by the rafale ,then their should not be any further argument about their experience of the past ,because if we doesnot weed out the inefficient method of production ultimately the taxpayer/country as a whole will suffer.
3)its absolutely vital for the govt . to prop the priavte sector vis a vis HAL and for that start has to be made
4) a thorough technologicall audit of HAL should also be made so that full fact about its capability should be made public after all this has been perfect example of incompetence /monopoly brought and fed by the tax payer money from the last 70 years.
5)if its turns out to be case inspired by the political vendetta aimed at paralysing the policy making of the govt. or rival countries/companies trying to geopardise a perfectly fine deal then exempalry punishment should be given to the firm ,lawyer should be barred from further practise ,politician if found guilty working in tandem to those firms should be barred from contesting three terms of election in the country
6)all people /bureaucrats involved in the perception management should be fired along with the defense minister for their shear incompetence
7)court cant simply make oral observation without full backing of the facts should be ensured
8) if prime minister is found to be involved in the crony capitalism then he should resign but at the same time it should be ensured that the IAF should have atleast as capable fighter at its disposal if not more
people may come people may go ,the country should not pay the price for the ego battle of pm ,opposition and cji
they should have been better prepared apart from the fact they should have clearly stated in no uncertain terms
1) it is a case of judiciary overreach it can look into the allegation of corruption but cant be seen as controlling/curbing the executive discretionary power if doing so that will be akin to challenging the mandate the govt.has got,better to have robot rather than the man.
2)if reliance indeed has been selected by the rafale ,then their should not be any further argument about their experience of the past ,because if we doesnot weed out the inefficient method of production ultimately the taxpayer/country as a whole will suffer.
3)its absolutely vital for the govt . to prop the priavte sector vis a vis HAL and for that start has to be made
4) a thorough technologicall audit of HAL should also be made so that full fact about its capability should be made public after all this has been perfect example of incompetence /monopoly brought and fed by the tax payer money from the last 70 years.
5)if its turns out to be case inspired by the political vendetta aimed at paralysing the policy making of the govt. or rival countries/companies trying to geopardise a perfectly fine deal then exempalry punishment should be given to the firm ,lawyer should be barred from further practise ,politician if found guilty working in tandem to those firms should be barred from contesting three terms of election in the country
6)all people /bureaucrats involved in the perception management should be fired along with the defense minister for their shear incompetence
7)court cant simply make oral observation without full backing of the facts should be ensured
8) if prime minister is found to be involved in the crony capitalism then he should resign but at the same time it should be ensured that the IAF should have atleast as capable fighter at its disposal if not more
people may come people may go ,the country should not pay the price for the ego battle of pm ,opposition and cji
With all due respect, there is no need to demean Ex- Pm Manmohan Singh, discussions doesn't means agreement, when it comes to governments, whether it's NDA or UPA, none of them have made concessions that were unfavorable to Indian Security Interests, if anything Indian covert actions during UPA government were significantly high. Lets not forget the ex-spymaster that everyone adores as the NSA conducted most of his daring escapades during a congress government. Indian foreign policy despite of political bickering is not formed by political organisations, they do not have the expertise or the wherewithal to take on such mammoth task, they are just one of the party to such policy decisions and will act out of consensus with the bureaucracy and the armed forces when required and will never go against the interests of the nation, given the dangerous precedents it has set in the past ex. I.K Gujral and Raw scaleback. Has Manmohan Singh government made mistakes, sure as hell they have, so have every possible leadership in every other nation, but insinuating that Manmohan Singh had some personal interest in making peace with pakistan while hurting his own government is not fair to him. For all of his own failing he has given most of his life to public service and doesn't deserve to be treated in such a way.
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Really, I am quite surprised that you are appaled, this government that is not competent to deal with gaurakshaks is to defend itself with a complicated techno-commercial discussion. A defence minister whose primary forte is to respond to every little comment by opposition is better suited for a television spokesperson.
I don't think it is, It wanted the view of the airforce to understand the specifics of change in specs of the aircraft and why an emergence g2g deal was necessary here.
Absolutely not, I have mentioned this time and again, that feasibility analysis done for RIL cannot just be transferred to ADAG, was the feasibility analysis just based on the surname and name of the father of the chairperson of the two groups? Both companies are complete different entities, with vastly different capabilities.
No its not. The responsibility of the government is to create conducive market policies, its job is not to prop up any company unless the President of India is a mojority shareholder in that company like HAL, MDL, CSL, BHEL, BEL, GRSE, GSL, BDL, etc.
70 years ago it was Government of India which nationalized Walchand Groups privately owned HAL and now you are complaining about the same. Before every project HAL takes on, a feasibility analysis is conducted, and it sure as hell doesn't involve a checkbox of having a famous family name.
Not it shouldn't, how has any of this delayed rafale's production, everything happening on Indian end has not impeded the delivery schedule for the rafales.
is there a bureaucrat who deals with perception management? incompetence of political post is a different story all together. how do we defend some education mos who want's to remove Evolution from curriculum, or a party head against whose case the key witness and judges mysteriously keep turning dead?
Court should do their duty, not please any narrative.
Again , all these cases have not impeded delivery schedule for Rafale, or the RFP for MMRCA 2.0
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most of you point are valid sir ,my only concern is we should have a potent air force who is competent enough to handle our both adversaries simultaneously.
all people be it judiciary ,legislative and executive should keep the nation interest above their petty ones .i dont want to go into the party affiliation but certainly its also true no party seems to be doing this in spirit.
with regard to perception management i meant those people who are answerable whether its defense minister or the bureaucrats ,when you have not done anything wrong why are you giving incoherent answer ,it has also added to the already muddled water.
i mean if the question has been asked on defense what is agricultural minister doingg in press conference and defense minister countering opposition on demonetisation
and replying to the petty barb of opposition on petty things like who said what about whom.
they should give common men /women the faith that yes the country is secure with us and we are cometent enough to take decision that's what i meant for perception management
I understand, but common people of India have never derived sense of security from Political leadership, but from the might and integrity of the forces. That remains unchanged irrespective of who is in the PM's seat.
Again Air force at it's current levels are more than capable of overwhelming Western front and credible defence on Eastern front. Multi front Battle is in my opinion is unlikely, but then again the our levels to tackle such a situation in no way or form has degraded with time, if anything today we are in a better position to defend ourselves than 20 years ago.
Now coming to IAF's question, IAF has a habit of crying wolf, like every other force in the world to ensure it can maximize the resources it commands. For example the squadron strength issue, Being a vocal supporter of Air Power I would grim-fully smile if could field 42 sqdns of 5th gen fighters, but it necessarily is not needed for ensuring security of Indian interests. When 270 odd Su30 MKI literally replaced aging Mig21, Mig 23 and Hawker hunter squadrons, your growth in capability for replaced squadrons increases 10 folds, sure same happens for the adversary, but if you still discount the calculations for oppositions capability growth, IAF's capability increase remains at a better trajectory.
Now coming to Rafale, Whatever happens in 24 hr news cycle, does not hamper Rafale's delivery schedule, neither does it impedes the process of MMRCA 2.0 process. If anything what this controversy has done, will be a positive in coming years ensuring that maximum transparency and due diligence is ensured while conducting transaction of such large magnitude.
I am fine if they stop at 36 Rafale, further more purchase means we let go the economy of scale for first tranche.
I don't have to do anything; he demeaned himself, as far as dealing with Pakistan and China was concerned. And I would strongly disagree that governments haven't made any concessions that were inimical to Indian interests; but that is not the point I was making anyways. I said that he flirted with the idea of making baffling concessions on Siachen, a fact that is well known and was widely reported on at the time, until he was strongly advised not to by the military.
As for Doval, I'm well aware of his exploits and when they occurred; and none of the ones I'm aware of occurred in Manmohan Singh's time, which was the topic I was discussing. Additionally, one could argue, that most of the theaters/conflicts Doval served in were created by the Congress. Whether it's the Khalistan Insurgency which Indira Gandhi created, Northeastern Insurgencies that were exacerbated by the poor and insensitive handling of Congress Governments, or J&K which once again we can thank Nehru & Indira/Rajeev for.
And whether you find it harsh or not, it was a widely held sentiment that by the end of his time in power, Manmohan Singh was beginning to look like he had caught Nobel Prize Fever; and if you want to talk about personal interests, was it not spoken about openly that Manmohan Singh harbored a strong desire to oversee peace between India and Pakistan so that one day he could visit his ancestral village in Pakistan? There are 2 types of Punjabis; the ones who are more anti-Pakistan than anyone else because they've seen Pakistan's real face, and then there are the foolish, naive, effete, suicidal "Aman Ki Asha/Sanjha Punjab" doves like Kuldeep Nayar, Manmohan Singh and IK Gujral (who, along with Morarji Desai, honestly ought to be brought back to life just to be tried for treason) who will happily keep absorbing losses inflicted by Pakistan and keep getting backstabbed in the idiotic, futile hope that a country formed on the very basis of hating Hindus and NOT being India will be ready to coexist in peace some day.
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I wonder where he got that PAF BVRAAM's out ranges Indian BVRAAM's?
If I recall correctly I do not think anything in the PAF has better range than the R27 ER/ET variants, even the RVV AE have an edge over AIM120C5.
From what I've heard the R77 aka RVV-AE is a crap missile. One couldn't go wrong in taking the far more reliable AMRAAM over it any day. That said, I'd say the performance of any contemporary BVRAAM today above a range of 60kms is likely to be very suspect/unreliable at best. Without proper AESA radars to boot, I don't see either air force being able to take full advantage of the missiles out to their advertised max ranges.
I'd in fact be happy if we junk the R77 altogether and replace all in-service examples of it with Astra Mk-1. The Meteors on Rafale however will be the ones to completely turn the tide in BVR combat in our neighbourhood. Too bad we won't be having many of them (with current orders).
Edit: Oh and that smokeless propellant on Astra is sweet.
I haven't been a fan of R77, but remember R27 ET is no slouch and easily out ranges the AIM 120C5 and performs very well.
I know that IAF tested RVV SD with the new seeker but I cannot confirm if they were bought. But still I don't see any PAF missile outranging IAF platforms as the journalist suggests.