i too remeber sir reading something but cant verify the veracity of the statement that IAF in its doctrine prefers to counter f 16 with two su 30 and the only reason they said was due to unreliable nature of r23/27 which pales in comparison of AIM 9 sidewinder
Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions
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The R27s we bought recently are Ukrainian ones and I believe they are actually somewhat improved over the original Russian ones, which themselves are pretty good missiles. As of the range statement, well Sekher Gupta is not exactly a defence expert afaik, so I wouldn't take what he says all that seriously when it comes to technical details.
i believe we ll buy Rafale in tranches.. atleast the next 36 ( 2 bases are already covered + indian specific enhancements done )
together with technologies that are essential to our R & D at that moment ( like kaveri in the first tranche )
Just to clarify,
There is no such missile as R23 that IAF fields,
, the R27's ET/ER versions are excellent missiles, they are not unreliable by any stretch of imagination. R77 AE has had some issues but the fact that russain platforms are flying over syria with R77 reinforces their faith in the system with the atrilce 190 type seeker.
Next AIM 9 is a short range AAM, the comparable missile to AIM 9 that India uses is the R73 Archer, arguably the most outstanding CCM ever fielded. R73 operators around the world are so happy with their performance that missile continues to be fielded in every new platform, all new versions of Flankers and fulcrums feature them, even the Chinese J10, LCA tejas primary ccm is the r73, IAF specifically was so happy with this missile that they qualified it for it's Mirage 2000. Its a cost effective dynamite of product, and even western experts swear by it's performance.
That's actually very russian tale, The original ET/ER came with the SU30K's were contracted from OKB Vympel, but were bought from Ukraine, later Ukrainian holding of vympel became Artem, where we bought ET1/ER1 in 12/13 when Rosoboron was trying to tell us it doesn't have enough R27ER for us and rather would sell us R77 SD instead. We ended up buying again from Ukraine but was facilitated by rosoboron, back then ukrainian organisation were still working with good synergies with Russians..
then we are letting go our negotiation upper hand which comes with higher order quantity.
What you sacrifice by way of bigger discounts, you make up for by avoiding huge controversies, given the lower values ( unfortunately, not so in the present case) and conserve your cash flow, which is why you're going in for smaller tranches in the first place. It's like those mathematical proofs, you study in junior School. x+y=2 but z=y, hence......
Even if the economy is doing only 7-8%, we will still get a lot of stuff in due to indigenisation.
China is not doing awesome, but they are not doing bad either. But we are not competing with them on a one-to-one basis, we have no need to.
Do you know all the problems you have listed have little to do with the govt itself.
All the tenders you have named are still stuck in the SPM process, and is mostly held up by all the potential SPs. The govt has done well to clear the logjam, but the delays have been due to the SPs not deciding upon the right way to compete.
Wherever the govt has power, those programs have proceeded quite unimpeded, like the FTP for the rifles, and even the 24 helicopter contract. The request for 24 helicopters was initiated only yesterday, so there is movement on the front. There has been movement on the contracts for other helicopters also, including 123 NMRH and 111 NUM. The Ka-226T is still stuck in negotiations, which has nothing to do with the govt, and the LUH is still under development.
All our army equipment is pretty much on track. The navy is also well on track. Only the air force is a bit slow because the LCA is still without FOC and the Rafale is now stuck in a controversy, but the second tranche orders will come through anyway.
Let's see all the big ticket stuff that the govt has already cleared, shall we?
Army:
Barak
Akash S1
Rifles, carbines - FTP
AK-103
Ka-226T
LCH
M777
K9
ATAGS
Dhanush
More BMP-2s
6 new regiments of Pinaka
2 regiments of Brahmos
WWR stockpiles
BPJs and helmets
T-90S and BMP-2 upgrades
464 T-90MS... Expected to be before govt leaves office, already with the CCS.
6 Apache... Expected to be signed before the govt leaves office.
Air force:
Barak
LCA Mk1A
Rafale
S-400
Brahmos
Apache
Chinook
Ka-226T
...Need I say more?
Navy:
11 frigates - P-17A and Krivak III
6 SSN
ASW corvettes
More P-8s
S5 SSBN... AFAIK, one S4 and the S5 class was signed under Modi.
24 NMRH letter sent to the US yesterday.
And this obviously does not cover all the other major DRDO projects initiated under Modi, including import substitution programs like the QRSAM and MPATGM.
See, pretty much all that I listed are contracted or will very soon be contracted. All of it in 5 years, and this is not even the complete list. Most richer countries take 15 years to get all this stuff. Dunno how this is not enough. What is one really expecting the govt to do?
One thing about defence, there is never enough money. So all procurement programs happen based on priority. Considering the list above, this govt has done a really tremendous job.
The AMRAAM C5 is superior in range compared to the RVV-AE. 80Km vs 105Km at the same altitude.
The R-27E variants do ourtange the AMRAAM, but we do not operate an active seeker version.
Even the Astra Mk1, MICA and Derby have less range than the C5. Astra Mk2, K-77M and IDerby-ER will comfortably outrange the Aim-120D let alone the C5, but we don't have these missiles in our inventory yet.
We will get the Meteor in a year.
I'm hoping the second tranche comes with a third base in fact.
The R-73 is obsolete by today's standards. Python-V and ASRAAM are the gold standard now.
Cash conservation can happen by slowing down the delivery. Avoiding huge controversy doesn't make a business sense.
We can not ask for ToT or Make in India for 36, and for next 36 we can not. However the option was viable for 72.
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Right now, the R-73. There is an R-74 in development. But the ASRAAM equivalent will be the new Izd 730 that's under development.
R-73 and R-74 are not even in the same generation as the ASRAAM.
Every pilot I have spoken to as always been all praises about the r73. I don't know much about ASRAAM's performance.
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ASRAAM: IIR seeker, 90 degree off-bore sight, can perform 180 degree turns, dual thrust motors, LOAL, 60Km range.
R-73M: Two-colour detector, 75 degree off-bore sight, cannot perform 180 degree turns, LOBL, 40Km range.
There is no comparison.
In the previous CCM tender, only the ASRAAM and Python V were shortlisted.
Depends, if you are just spreading the usual misinformation, that's good enough. But of we talk about reality and facts...
- there is no order for LCA MK1A, stuck at MoD at the moment, because HAL and iAF can't agree on costs
- MMRCA and FGFA cancelled => loss off more than 300 fighters vs procurement of just 36 Rafales
- crucial force multipliers AWACS/tankers/transport aircrafts (2 x A50 Phalcon, 6 x A330MRTT, 45 x MTA, 56 x C295), either cancelled or delayed
- G2G deal for Kamov 226 was done in 2015, final contract still not signed
- additional Hawks not procured
- additional PC7 DAC cleared and then not procured
- no solution to the VIP helicopter requirement
- no solution for MMRCA requirements, delayed for 4 years now and counting
That's only the result of the last 4 years for IAF, it gets worse when we add other forces as well. Only IA got some useful additions, while they face the results of limited defence spending, the lack of a proper DM, too.
Procurement of Rafale Fighter JET
=> MMRCA finalised by April 2015, would have got IAF 18 Rafales by April 2019.
36 Rafale deal, 1 Rafale by Sept 2019
Emergency procurement???
Yes, it is a measure to deal with an emergency: you assume that an agreement will be finalized in April 2015, but it is because there was no possibility of such an agreement that it became urgent to find another solution.
And the delay is not so great between April 2018 and September 2019 only 17 months, which is much less than the time that would have been necessary for any other solution.
Now if we want 126 Rafale, without wasting time, it is enough to order 90 of them in time so that their production follows that of the 36 Rafale, i.e. September 2022 -3= September 2019. We have almost a year left.