True and at least here I don't blame Dassault, but clearly the government, for making up a fake requirement to justify this order.
Rafale DH/EH of Indian Air Force : News and Discussions
- Thread starter Herciv
- Start date
-
- Tags
- indian defence forum
True and at least here I don't blame Dassault, but clearly the government, for making up a fake requirement to justify this order.
Eric Trappier was giving all BS all the time during the MMRCA process, Even after the 36 were procured, he was still of the opinion that GoI will sign the deal for 126 !!!
What not a fake requirement but urgent requirement by IAF. IAF informed that they were expecting 126 but since there is an impasse, what they would hope at least 36 planes as that might make do for some short time thus giving the govt a bit more time to have introspection about MMRCA deal
Interesting detail noticed on the French forum:
This access panel is new.
This access panel is new.
Rahul Gandhi on Rafale Accusations Galore
It is nearly six months that Rahul Gandhi has been accusing Modi government of financial impropriety in the purchase of Rafale jets from France. He has accused Ambani industries of impropriety as well the French company, the supplier, of lies and what not. Eventually the Supreme Court entered the fray without success with them finding little to support any impropriety. Modi Government even under a sealed envelope gave the Supreme Court process followed to arrive at the decision and total price breakdown.
In the whole process above in last four months, the Congress Party has exposed its incompetence of taking seven years to negotiate and never achieving the stage to place the order. During that period - the price has to escalate. Also technology changed for avionics as well as sophisticated missiles it will carry, all wanted by the IAF. Hence prices 7-8 years later have to change (nothing is loose). But RaGa is still hammering and hammering a dead buck.
What it means that either it is 1980s Bofor case for them to unseat the Modi government or run out of topics to fight the upcoming elections. His previous attempts to foul mouth the GST roll out, upgraded Adhar card roll out or Demonetization to get the unaccounted money out into the financial institutions have all failed. He thought Rafale purchase would give him room to maneuver for upcoming elections, has likewise failed. Only in the process he has managed to stay on the front pages of the media.
How is the media helping RaGa in this fight? The media are nobody’s friend. Much of the print and electronic media is basically leftist hence they prefer to take a middle-left view of any discussions. Hence the media well managed by RaGa handlers are doing a respectable job of keeping the pointless fight alive. The irony is that 150 (as per Kapil Sibal) Media outlets are in the pay of the Congress Party, hence they make a single word of the judges or officials, look like the end of the news. If that is an exploit to win the elections, then it is a lost cause.
RaGa has a miserable record of winning elections. He had lost seven elections in the states and at the federal level in previous years, since he joined the party as a Vice President. Not until two years back Captain Amrinder Singh decided to stage a comeback in Punjab and won the elections for Congress Party, although knowing RaGa’s bad luck, he forbade him to campaign in Punjab. Karnataka is no win for him. Someone else won it but not with the majority, hence RaGa threw in his party weight behind him to provide him the majority.
With bad luck, following RaGa behind him, he has not picked a great winning issue to bring it to the people to unseat Modi at the center. Hence, no matter how much the left leaning media tries, the Congress Party has no issues to fight the elections. Net impact, Congress Party with RaGa as its head holds no chance of succeeding.
As far as Rafale saga, there is nothing in the accusations to bring home the bacon. Only conclusion, it is that, the damage it is doing to India’s position as a buyer of sophisticated arms abroad. It will irk any supplier. Nobody likes false accusations.
It is nearly six months that Rahul Gandhi has been accusing Modi government of financial impropriety in the purchase of Rafale jets from France. He has accused Ambani industries of impropriety as well the French company, the supplier, of lies and what not. Eventually the Supreme Court entered the fray without success with them finding little to support any impropriety. Modi Government even under a sealed envelope gave the Supreme Court process followed to arrive at the decision and total price breakdown.
In the whole process above in last four months, the Congress Party has exposed its incompetence of taking seven years to negotiate and never achieving the stage to place the order. During that period - the price has to escalate. Also technology changed for avionics as well as sophisticated missiles it will carry, all wanted by the IAF. Hence prices 7-8 years later have to change (nothing is loose). But RaGa is still hammering and hammering a dead buck.
What it means that either it is 1980s Bofor case for them to unseat the Modi government or run out of topics to fight the upcoming elections. His previous attempts to foul mouth the GST roll out, upgraded Adhar card roll out or Demonetization to get the unaccounted money out into the financial institutions have all failed. He thought Rafale purchase would give him room to maneuver for upcoming elections, has likewise failed. Only in the process he has managed to stay on the front pages of the media.
How is the media helping RaGa in this fight? The media are nobody’s friend. Much of the print and electronic media is basically leftist hence they prefer to take a middle-left view of any discussions. Hence the media well managed by RaGa handlers are doing a respectable job of keeping the pointless fight alive. The irony is that 150 (as per Kapil Sibal) Media outlets are in the pay of the Congress Party, hence they make a single word of the judges or officials, look like the end of the news. If that is an exploit to win the elections, then it is a lost cause.
RaGa has a miserable record of winning elections. He had lost seven elections in the states and at the federal level in previous years, since he joined the party as a Vice President. Not until two years back Captain Amrinder Singh decided to stage a comeback in Punjab and won the elections for Congress Party, although knowing RaGa’s bad luck, he forbade him to campaign in Punjab. Karnataka is no win for him. Someone else won it but not with the majority, hence RaGa threw in his party weight behind him to provide him the majority.
With bad luck, following RaGa behind him, he has not picked a great winning issue to bring it to the people to unseat Modi at the center. Hence, no matter how much the left leaning media tries, the Congress Party has no issues to fight the elections. Net impact, Congress Party with RaGa as its head holds no chance of succeeding.
As far as Rafale saga, there is nothing in the accusations to bring home the bacon. Only conclusion, it is that, the damage it is doing to India’s position as a buyer of sophisticated arms abroad. It will irk any supplier. Nobody likes false accusations.
Lets look at your list and see how far its true.
Army:
1. Barak
2. Akash S1
3. Rifles, carbines - FTP (Order still not placed, sure call it FTP but nothing ordered in 4.5 years)
4. AK-103(Order still not placed)
5. Ka-226T(Order still not placed)
6. LCH(Order still not placed)
7. M777
8. K9
9. ATAGS(Order still not placed)
10. Dhanush
11. More BMP-2s (Agreed, because no money for FICV/FRCV)
12. 6 new regiments of Pinaka
13. 2 regiments of Brahmos (No order for Army placed by current government, 2 regiments ordered by UPA under delivery since 2016)
14. WWR stockpiles
15. BPJs and helmets
16. T-90S and BMP-2 upgrades (No agreements signed so far)
17. 464 T-90MS... Expected to be before govt leaves office, already with the CCS.(Order still not placed)
18. 6 Apache... Expected to be signed before the govt leaves office.(Order still not placed)
(Score = 9.5/18)
Air force:
1. Barak
2. LCA Mk1A (Order still not placed)
3. Rafale (Agreed, But 36 instead of 126)
4. S-400
5. Brahmos
6. Apache
7. Chinook
8. Ka-226T (Order still not placed)
...Need I say more? LOL. If its more cooked up examples, please No thank you!
(Score = 5.5/8)
Navy:
1. 11 frigates - P-17A and Krivak III
2. 6 SSN
3. ASW corvettes (Not even sure which project is this, please dont tell me Karmota class. If you are talking about the shallow crafts,order still not placed)
4. More P-8s
5. S5 SSBN... AFAIK, one S4 and the S5 class was signed under Modi. (S4 hull fabrication was almost over before this government took office, the 12 silo unit recieved inital funding by the previous government. But I'm not going to try and prove it, so lets call this a tie)
6. 24 NMRH letter sent to the US yesterday. (Order still not placed. Sure, yesterday today tomorrow whatever. )
(Score = 3/5)
(Still means not ordered as of today yea?) Should I remind you how many price extensions both governments had taken in the past after reaching this stage for multiple FMS procurements?
Why do you have to create things out of thin air to justify your statements? I already said that this government may have done a better job than the previous government, its just that they haven't done enough for a so called nationalist government that took office pointing to how UPA had underfunded and overlooked the defense forces. You say its not the governments mistake that most of the deals are stuck under negotiations, but you need to know that the negotiations take longer because the forces understand they don't have the money to sign up for them in the particular Financial year due to limited budgets. Every year they give out a list of priorities with respect to money available in hand and all the remaining projects get stretched out in long negotiations in order to limit price escalation. It is not a state secret that the capital budget had started witnessing significant reduction in the composition of total defense budget. Do you want me to pull your own optimistic statements of our defense budget hitting the worlds third largest by 2020 and so on? Anyways I'm out.
Good Day!
With the exception of the NMRH, pretty much everything you have marked are going to be placed within this term. So you will have to bring this same list up again once the Moral Code of Conduct comes into the picture and then compare. Other than that, even without all that you have marked, this govt has bought enough to say that they have done an excellent job already.
LCH orders have already been placed. Production began last year.
As for the SSBN, I am referring to the second S4 class sub that was ordered as a stop gap before the S5 class begins construction.
As for ASW corvettes, I am talking about the 16 corvettes that will soon be ordered from CSL and GRSE. To be signed before elections.
As for Brahmos, 4th regiment is already being raised. It was cleared by Modi in 2016. >>Link.<<
And 36 Rafale is more than enough, it takes care of inductions until 2023. This will be followed by another 36 anyway, as long as Modi wins again. These 72 can come in much faster than the 126 jets would have come in anyway, even if we did sign the MMRCA contract.
=============================================
A concrete list with contracts.
Army:
Barak
Akash S1
LCH
M777
K9
Dhanush
More BMP-2s
6 new regiments of Pinaka
1 new regiment of Brahmos
WWR stockpiles
BPJs and helmets
BMP-2 upgrades
Air force:
Barak
Rafale
Brahmos
S-400
Apache
Chinook
Navy:
11 frigates - P-17A and Krivak III
6 SSN
S5 SSBN... AFAIK, one S4 and the S5 class was signed under Modi.
More P-8s
Still an excellent list. This is already beyond criticism.
=============================================
=============================================
What the govt will order soon, which I think anyway...
Army:
Rifles, carbines - FTP
AK-103
Ka-226T
ATAGS
1 regiment of Brahmos
464 T-90MS
Air force:
LCA Mk1A
Ka-226T
I want to add the 2 Phalcons to this list as well.
Navy:
ASW corvettes
=============================================
=============================================
What may not happen within the next few months. Least likely to be ordered.
Army:
T-90S upgrades
464 T-90MS... Could be delayed due to the ongoing discussion on T-90S upgrades. But the contract is with CCS now, so nothing's stopping its signature.
6 Apache... AFAIK, contract negotiation is already done. I would put it in the previous list, but I'm not sure yet.
Air force:
Nothing here. Everything I listed is expected to happen in this term.
Navy:
Nothing here either. I had pointed out NMRH only because you brought it up.
=============================================
Do you see how short the list is now? Quite literally only the T-90 left.
Let's compare this list with ground realities once the Moral Code of Conduct comes into force, shall we?
Agreed
"We are looking at orders for 83 LCA Mk-1s and 15 Light Combat Helicopters (LCH)," Madhavan said.
Nov 02, 2018, 11.51 PM IST
//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/66482255.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
++ I wonder why Chairman of HAL is not aware of the LSP order for 15 LCH. Maybe because the government didn't place the order yet even after granting DAC approval on August, 2017? Very interesting indeed.
Production began in 2017.
Bengaluru: Defence Minister Arun Jaitley launches HAL's light combat helicopter
Madhavan is referring to the second batch of 15 LCH.
India set to order second batch of LCH helos - Air & Cosmos - International
HAL has received an RFP for a second batch of Light Combat Helicopters following the initial batch ordered at the official production launch in August.
30 LSP version units, very interesting indeed. Any info about the FOC status of LCH? Still waiting on Helina?
this is the only place I saw the "second RFP" of 15 LCH. I seriously doubt that its true. we are only awaiting the first 15 as of now. the IAF RFP list does not have the LCH in it:
Capital Procurement | Indian Air Force | Government of India
It's a nomination based RFP, not a tender, so it won't be listed there. If you haven't noticed the link does not have the LCA Mk1A either, which is also nomination based.
Dude, this govt cannot buy a *censored*in rifle, all it's good for is making grandiose announcements.
The only one that is talking about conspiracy is you, I am pointing to the same issues, that the SC is investigating too, due process and decision making that lead to the cut down of numbers.
The Hollande statement falls into the same field, because it's about due process and possible deviation during the talks in Paris as well, but thats not what was issued aa complaints. So don't try to undermine it, because your own source already confirmed what I said.
That's about the Hollande statement and the press releases that you referred to. Which however doesn't matter wrt the allegations or the talks in Paris, as the government continue to show, the DPP "only" refers to the contract negotiations!
You can't correct me, because you ignore what the government itself is saying!
They took MMRCA evaluation reports as the basis for the Rafale deal. There was no new procedure ahead of the announcement in Paris "according to the government documents"!!!
"Their" whole point is, that an IGA doesn't need new procedures and therfore they only refer to following DPP after the announcement and from the IGA onwards. Even the DAC clearances came out only by accident and now they added suddenly, that the MMRCA cancellation started in March and not just in June, as stated before. The SC even asked about that and how a new deal could be made, when the old RFP was still on? To which the AG has no answer to.
The same way they did it with the LUH tender, cancelling it before they went to a G2G deal => cancelling MMRCA and asking the vendor of the 2nd qualified fighter for a G2G deal. So the government has even a precedent on how to do it the right way and without cutting down numbers or licence production in India, but they / the PM chose to do it differently this time and that's opens up the whole deal for valid questions!
The documents they released only confirmed how shady the whole procurement is (enemy 400 fighters, so we buy 36, MMRCA evaluation as the base, but only 1 of the qualified fighters will be considered, no explanation on how, when or by whom the cut down was decided...) and added a new note too, with the revalations on government guarantees and that the NDA law ministry even objected that point, that later was simply overruled by CCS.
What that the SC makes out of this and if there are enough legally binding issues, needs to be seen, but it's clear why the government has so much trouble to defend the deal, let alone find 1 common way to do it.
Interesting detail noticed on the French forum:
This access panel is new.
Any hypothesis on what it's for?
AFAIK, DAC cleared the first batch in Nov 2016 and signed a contract with HAL in Aug 2017. And metal cutting had begun even before Aug. Deliveries of 5 to 6 units are expected from next year after all. So, it's weird to be talking about an RFP all the way today.
I do not know if there were any delays in between. Like the IAF blocking production until some milestone was achieved.
Dunno where ot place this. Demo of cool stuff from french SF. (cpa10, my former unit i believe). Rellay cool. enjoy.