S-400 'Triumf' News & Discussion

[randomradio]

Sure. They know the raw hardware capabilities, they know how to jam it and turn it off. You can't use weapons supplied by a friend of your enemy or your enemy. That's basic commonsense.

The S-400 will use our own datalinks and network. The Russians don't have access to that.

And the thing about "they know how to jam it", nope, they don't have that power simply because we can use custom generated signals which the Russians are not aware of.

So if they can't get access to our C&C or recognise our signals, they can't do anything to our S-400. It's as simple as that.

Now, the US can do that with the F-35 because the Americans will control the F-35's C&C, and the F-35 is not programmable by anyone but the Americans. Take that away and even the Americans can't do jack to the F-35 either.

The only advantage the Russians have is familiarity with the system, which can allow them to take advantage of any inherent weakness. But if they want to defeat the Indian S-400, they will still have to do it the hard way.

 

[advaidhya]

The S-400 will use our own datalinks and network. The Russians don't have access to that.

And the thing about "they know how to jam it", nope, they don't have that power simply because we can use custom generated signals which the Russians are not aware of.

So if they can't get access to our C&C or recognise our signals, they can't do anything to our S-400. It's as simple as that.

Now, the US can do that with the F-35 because the Americans will control the F-35's C&C, and the F-35 is not programmable by anyone but the Americans. Take that away and even the Americans can't do jack to the F-35 either.

The only advantage the Russians have is familiarity with the system, which can allow them to take advantage of any inherent weakness. But if they want to defeat the Indian S-400, they will still have to do it the hard way.

Russians can jam the S400 as it was seen in Syria where Iran found that Russia had made some S300 malfunction to help Israel. But the problem here is that India has alternative radars like rajendra Radar, upgraded greenpine radar etc which will work even if S400 does not. We also have Akash SAM, LRSAM etc as backup which also work flawlessly

 

[Himanshu]

Russia, India to sign S-400 missile deal this week: Kremlin

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Moscow and Delhi will sign a deal worth more than $5 billion on the delivery of Russian S-400 anti-aircraft missiles when President Vladimir Putin visits India later this week, Kremlin aide Yuri Ushakov said on Tuesday.

 

[RATHORE]

Russia, India to sign S-400 missile deal this week: Kremlin

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Moscow and Delhi will sign a deal worth more than $5 billion on the delivery of Russian S-400 anti-aircraft missiles when President Vladimir Putin visits India later this week, Kremlin aide Yuri Ushakov said on Tuesday.

When will the first delivery of these systems begin, and by what date do we expect all 5 to arrive?

 

[TARGET]

Jamming of ground based powerful radar may not be easy but poosible as technology upgrades .With data links India can see more than what a single system of s400 provides but Russian fighter plane can dodge the seeker of the missile as they are the manucturer. we will see if we can use Russian system to fire our LRSAM.

 

[RATHORE]

Jamming of ground based powerful radar may not be easy but poosible as technology upgrades .With data links India can see more than what a single system of s400 provides but Russian fighter plane can dodge the seeker of the missile as they are the manucturer. we will see if we can use Russian system to fire our LRSAM.

Which Russian Fighters are capable of dodging S-400's? We should probably buy a few squadrons since China has this system as well.

 

[TARGET]

Which Russian Fighters are capable of dodging S-400's? We should probably buy a few squadrons since China has this system as well.

We may need to check with Russian to guide us creating a jammer to jam on s400 seeker so that we we can use it on MKI .May be a different project but need to evaluate will it be worth to do that project as technology changes rapidly.

 

[RATHORE]

We may need to check with Russian to guide us creating a jammer to jam on s400 seeker so that we we can use it on MKI .May be a different project but need to evaluate will it be worth to do that project as technology changes rapidly.

I imagine the PAK FA would have probably been capable of dodging the S-400 too. Is that project 100% officially dead? Because buying a couple squadrons (fly away if nothing else) wouldn't have been a bad idea - in terms of getting comfortable w/ stealth fighters, dodging the S-400's, and making up squadron shortfall.

 

[TARGET]

I imagine the PAK FA would have probably been capable of dodging the S-400 too. Is that project 100% officially dead? Because buying a couple squadrons (fly away if nothing else) wouldn't have been a bad idea - in terms of getting comfortable w/ stealth fighters, dodging the S-400's, and making up squadron shortfall.

PAKFA is almost dead for IAF but for MOD nothing is actually dead .i don’t see India is in any urgency to acquire 5th generations fighter plane as IAF doesn’t see Chinese J20 as threat .As per plan next target will be MMRCA 2.0 and our indigenous AMCA and Tejas MK1a .if AMCA not up to the mark we may go for govt to govt deal for any 5th generations fighter plane available on market that time and not to forget everything depends on our economic growth.

 

[Shajida Khan]

Because China is Russia's most important ally and trading partner. Simple. You are hugely deluded if you think India is more important to Russia than China.

Does not matter. Compromising your largest customer (8.5 billion dollar worth of exports) does not work well. It will ensure Russia reputation of as a weapons supplier will be doomed if they choose to do that. Not to mention it will destroy any source of funds for their defence R&D.

Secondly, do you think with the tunes US is playing, Indian negotiators will not get the required source code and details for Indian scientists to analyze the system itself? If there are any backdoors built into the system, India will know much much earlier.

Lastly, Russia like most of the countries, runs a trade deficit with China. China cann't exactly use trade as a weapons against Russia.

As far as being allies go: Russia and China are 'allies' so long US is threatening them. Russia will not harm its own interests to push Chinese agenda.

Now perhaps the most vital part of the argument. What makes you think that a 'backdoor' or 'vulnerability' will be built into the S-400? Something which is not detectable by Indians, and Turkish engineers for that matter but known only to Russians? It takes much much effort to reliably hide such a thing in your products because analysis in engineering is usually easier than the design itself. If you build vulnerabilities into your exports and kill switches, your reputation will go down when such things are discovered or leaked. The kind of scandal will be so monstrous that you can kiss all your business goodbye. I doubt if someone is in the business of selling weapons they will risk that. Reputation in arms business is hard to build and easy to lose.
Especially when they are in the business of trying to sell it to the world.

Now here is the hook. If China gives S-400's alleged vulnerabilities to Pakistan, it will surely find its way to CIA and US. CIA's operation in Pakistan is quite big. And in process it will compromise China's own S-400.

 

[Shajida Khan]

Sure. They know the raw hardware capabilities, they know how to jam it and turn it off. You can't use weapons supplied by a friend of your enemy or your enemy. That's basic commonsense.

Actually, you can.
Iran operates a number of ancient F-14s.
Iran's Air Force Flies American-Made F-14 Tomcats

And they are a major headache for Israel, because they guard Iranian nuclear sites and they are quite adept at that.

Not to mention, US tried to ground them; quite seriously. Denying spares, weapons etc. And that effort failed, time and again.
They are right now one of the better fighters in the region. Heck, CIA lost quite a few of its prized secret drones to the F-14s.

 

[randomradio]

Russians can jam the S400 as it was seen in Syria where Iran found that Russia had made some S300 malfunction to help Israel.

Where do you get such news bro? No such thing happened.

Iran's S-300s are safely packed away in Iran.

 

[randomradio]

When will the first delivery of these systems begin, and by what date do we expect all 5 to arrive?

First system in 2 years, the rest in 3 years after that. So total time of 5 to 5.5 years.

 

[BMD]

Actually, you can.
Iran operates a number of ancient F-14s.
Iran's Air Force Flies American-Made F-14 Tomcats

And they are a major headache for Israel, because they guard Iranian nuclear sites and they are quite adept at that.

Not to mention, US tried to ground them; quite seriously. Denying spares, weapons etc. And that effort failed, time and again.
They are right now one of the better fighters in the region. Heck, CIA lost quite a few of its prized secret drones to the F-14s.

And those F-14s probably wouldn't work against NATO unless they've completely changed the radar, EW and missiles.

Yeah, so they've had to change everything and make it a self-supported item. Have India done that?

 

[BMD]

The S-400 will use our own datalinks and network. The Russians don't have access to that.

And the thing about "they know how to jam it", nope, they don't have that power simply because we can use custom generated signals which the Russians are not aware of.

So if they can't get access to our C&C or recognise our signals, they can't do anything to our S-400. It's as simple as that.

Now, the US can do that with the F-35 because the Americans will control the F-35's C&C, and the F-35 is not programmable by anyone but the Americans. Take that away and even the Americans can't do jack to the F-35 either.

The only advantage the Russians have is familiarity with the system, which can allow them to take advantage of any inherent weakness. But if they want to defeat the Indian S-400, they will still have to do it the hard way.

Unless you've stripped all the electronics, and changed them, it won't work. And if you've done all that, you may as well have made your own SAM.

 

[BMD]

Does not matter. Compromising your largest customer (8.5 billion dollar worth of exports) does not work well. It will ensure Russia reputation of as a weapons supplier will be doomed if they choose to do that. Not to mention it will destroy any source of funds for their defence R&D.

Secondly, do you think with the tunes US is playing, Indian negotiators will not get the required source code and details for Indian scientists to analyze the system itself? If there are any backdoors built into the system, India will know much much earlier.

Lastly, Russia like most of the countries, runs a trade deficit with China. China cann't exactly use trade as a weapons against Russia.

As far as being allies go: Russia and China are 'allies' so long US is threatening them. Russia will not harm its own interests to push Chinese agenda.

Now perhaps the most vital part of the argument. What makes you think that a 'backdoor' or 'vulnerability' will be built into the S-400? Something which is not detectable by Indians, and Turkish engineers for that matter but known only to Russians? It takes much much effort to reliably hide such a thing in your products because analysis in engineering is usually easier than the design itself. If you build vulnerabilities into your exports and kill switches, your reputation will go down when such things are discovered or leaked. The kind of scandal will be so monstrous that you can kiss all your business goodbye. I doubt if someone is in the business of selling weapons they will risk that. Reputation in arms business is hard to build and easy to lose.
Especially when they are in the business of trying to sell it to the world.

Now here is the hook. If China gives S-400's alleged vulnerabilities to Pakistan, it will surely find its way to CIA and US. CIA's operation in Pakistan is quite big. And in process it will compromise China's own S-400.

China is Russia's largest trading partner overall though and strongest military partner. India is very much 2nd fiddle.

 

[randomradio]

Unless you've stripped all the electronics, and changed them, it won't work. And if you've done all that, you may as well have made your own SAM.

Nope. Our S-400s will be tamper proof. You wanna defeat it, it's gonna be the hard way for anyone.

 

[advaidhya]

Unless you've stripped all the electronics, and changed them, it won't work. And if you've done all that, you may as well have made your own SAM.

India has its own radars and tracking system. Indian main intention in S400 purchase is not the electronics but the missile design. India wants the design of the missile for use in XRSAM. The cost for Indian S400 is also higher than those of Turkey or China which suggests that there is likely to be indigenous production of missiles.

Randomradio is wrong in saying that systems are not rigged. All electronics are rigged and would not work against own country. But, India has more than just S400 SAM. S400 is only additional technology acquisition

 

[randomradio]

India has its own radars and tracking system. Indian main intention in S400 purchase is not the electronics but the missile design. India wants the design of the missile for use in XRSAM. The cost for Indian S400 is also higher than those of Turkey or China which suggests that there is likely to be indigenous production of missiles.

Nope. XRSAM is already developed.

Randomradio is wrong in saying that systems are not rigged. All electronics are rigged and would not work against own country. But, India has more than just S400 SAM. S400 is only additional technology acquisition

Nope again.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Nope. XRSAM is already developed.



Nope again.

Say hi to Kshitij Sharma aka pachawry.