S-400 'Triumf' News & Discussion

S-400 is not the silver bullet when it comes to ABM capabilities... Yes it is a lethal SAM, but as ABM it has limitations.

* Target speed above 14 Mach cannot be tracked .

* Target of above 1 square meter can be detected from up to 600 Km. targets less than 1 meter square RCS can only be detected up to 475 Km and closer.

* The maximum range of engagement for an aerodynamic target is 250 KM and for Ballistic targets its 60 Km.
However the Altitude of engagement in both cases is limited to 27 Km as per Manufacturer's website.
Reason being the Missiles need to remain within thick atmosphere to Maneuver . The 250 Km engagement range is only possible if using their longest range 48N6 missile. The 400 Km range 40N6 missile isn't operational yet.

* After the launcher has fired all 4 Missiles, there is a 5 Minute or more Re-Load time.

* S-400 is not Over the Horizon Radar and curvature of earth will limit radar detection ..
At sea level the S-400 radar can only detect objects at 28000 meter altitude at full 600 Km detection range.
Anything lower than that altitude will need to be closer for detection.
For example an object flying at 10,000 meter altitude will only be detected at 370 Km range when S-400 is at sea level. Because beyond that distance at that altitude the object will still be hidden behind curvature of earth and invisible to radar.

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A Pakistani aircraft flying at low altitude of say 1000 meters will only be visible to a Mobile radar, in this case S-400 Radar at 170-200 Km range. If the jet flies lower , the detection range will also be lower (I am not considering supplementary systems such as AWACS here).
At a range of 150-200 Km the Pakistani Jet can fire a standoff weapon(s) and turn back again to hide behind earth's curvature..
here i have considered S-400 Radar height at 200 meters, which is average elevation of Ground in Rajisthan and Indian Punjab.

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In ABM scenario. Say for example the Indians have placed their S-400 Radar at a hill top 1000 meters above sea level (Although i am thinking where will be such a place in the planes of Indian Punjab or Rajisthan?)
Pakistan will most probably launch nuclear missiles from the border areas of South Punjab and Balochistan ,from behind the Sulaiman Mountain range. or Koh Suliman.

In that scenario, the Pakistani Ballistic missile will be already 10,000 meter above sea level after launch before any chance of detection by Indian S-400 or any radar.
At that altitude Ballistic missiles are already accelerated to Mach 4+ and continue accelerating. So boost phase shooting down of Pakistani missiles is not even technically possible.

For ballistic missile target engagement after Re-Entry, it depends on may factors. Mainly the speed and size of Re-entry vehicle or the warhead. Modern Ballistic missiles, even those used by Pakistan, shed most of their components before re-entry and the Much smaller warhead enters the atmosphere. For example a Shaheen III warhead is less than 2 meters tall and less than 75 Cm wide, and has a surface area of about 2 to 2.5 Square meters. The Radar Cross section or RCS of this conical shaped warhead will be the section of the warhead facingthe S-400 radar, and actually reflecting Radar energy towards the antenna, and that can even be one fourth of the total surface area , depending on the aspect. Due to small RCS, detection may not be possible at full 600 Km range. Then the speed after apogee increase to Mach 18 , in case of Ababeel, Shaheen-III , both using the same Warhead(s).
S-400 cannot track objects flying above Mach 14.
 
Looks impressive but such big missiles are ill-suited to next-generation threats like drone swarms combining decoy drones, jamming drones and attack drones and miniature cruise missiles.

yeah...the dudes in pakistan are going to attack us with...drone swarms. They are attacking us with human drone swarms alright. Unfortunately S 400 can't defend us against those.
 
A Pakistani aircraft flying at low altitude of say 1000 meters will only be visible to a Mobile radar, in this case S-400 Radar at 170-200 Km range. If the jet flies lower , the detection range will also be lower (I am not considering supplementary systems such as AWACS here).
At a range of 150-200 Km the Pakistani Jet can fire a standoff weapon(s) and turn back again to hide behind earth's curvature..
here i have considered S-400 Radar height at 200 meters, which is average elevation of Ground in Rajisthan and Indian Punjab.

Why to send an aircraft at all, send some NASR via Road, no height, no detection at all. Reach S400 spot, shoot point blank. Easy.

By the way any drawbacks of aircraft flying so low in hostile environment? Slingshots?
 
yeah...the dudes in pakistan are going to attack us with...drone swarms. They are attacking us with human drone swarms alright. Unfortunately S 400 can't defend us against those.
What about China though?
 
all responses must be made keeping actual threat assesments in mind. Theoretically something can be a threat. In practical terms we need to look at what strategy the chinese actually want to field against India.
Naval and air.
 
Why to send an aircraft at all, send some NASR via Road, no height, no detection at all. Reach S400 spot, shoot point blank. Easy.

By the way any drawbacks of aircraft flying so low in hostile environment? Slingshots?
For these calculations i considered Incoming aircrafts flying at 500-1000 meter altitude, which is not that low.
 
A Pakistani aircraft flying at low altitude of say 1000 meters will only be visible to a Mobile radar, in this case S-400 Radar at 170-200 Km range. If the jet flies lower , the detection range will also be lower (I am not considering supplementary systems such as AWACS here).
At a range of 150-200 Km the Pakistani Jet can fire a standoff weapon(s) and turn back again to hide behind earth's curvature..
here i have considered S-400 Radar height at 200 meters, which is average elevation of Ground in Rajisthan and Indian Punjab.

How did you find the S-400 battery first?

Any attack should first start with recce, which means you need to fly high and try to find the S-400 battery using radar and other sensors. And these are line of sight systems, so if you can see the S-400, the S-400 can see you.
 
How did you find the S-400 battery first?

Any attack should first start with recce, which means you need to fly high and try to find the S-400 battery using radar and other sensors. And these are line of sight systems, so if you can see the S-400, the S-400 can see you.
SIGINT is the key..
Although last time i checked we lacked in this field pretty bad.. The Erieye we got were washed down versions with zero SIGINT and ELINT capabilities, but i am talking about 10 years ago.
 
How did you find the S-400 battery first?

Any attack should first start with recce, which means you need to fly high and try to find the S-400 battery using radar and other sensors. And these are line of sight systems, so if you can see the S-400, the S-400 can see you.
Special forces job. Typical.
 
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Or satellite. However there is also something called a MALD-V in the works.
S-400 has many additional features. It can remain active thruout and yet not use its missile direction radars to bring down an aircraft. The passive ESM with very high accuracy is embedded within the battery. So even if you try and jam the radars, you can be targeted thru the ESM systems providing enough data to guide the missile to the target from where they can use their onboard RF seeker to lock on and destroy the target. In addition, the warhead size of the missiles is so big that small miss distances will not be able to help the target.
 
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SIGINT is the key..
Although last time i checked we lacked in this field pretty bad.. The Erieye we got were washed down versions with zero SIGINT and ELINT capabilities, but i am talking about 10 years ago.

SIGINT is a very broad based term. It requires a lot of ground work. You need to sift through all the data and find the S-400 within it, which can take days, months or even years. It's a very slow process and it never ends.

Otoh, what you really need is the ability to actually see the threat with your own eyes yourself. And this can also be delegated to radar and IR sensors, but these are all range restricted. The big problem is whether this range outranges the S-400 or not.

Even after all that, you still need to do a lot of preparatory work before you commit to an attack, by which time the S-400 would have moved.
 
S-400 has many additional features. It can remain active thruout and yet not use its missile direction radars to bring down an aircraft. The passive ESM with very high accuracy is embedded within the battery. So even if you try and jam the radars, you can be targeted thru the ESM systems providing enough data to guide the missile to the target from where they can use their onboard RF seeker to lock on and destroy the target. In addition, the warhead size of the missiles is so big that small miss distances will not be able to help the target.
MALD-V can use passive IIR detection, radar or ESM.