Shivalik-class & Nilgiri-class (Project 17 A/B) Frigates : Discussions

[Gautam]

Yantar Shipyard Completes Two Frigates for Indian Navy Under New Hull Numbers

17 May 2020 15:42
By Dmitry Zhavoronkov

Yantar Shipyard (Kaliningrad, Russia) holds on completion of two Project 11356 Burevestnik-class ships. The yard reports on the online public procurement portal that the matter is outfitting work on two frigates, hull numbers 01457 and 01458.

Model of Project 11356 frigate at Goa Shipyard’s booth. Photo: Dmitry Zhavoronkov, Mil.Press Today

An informed industry insider confirmed this information to Mil.Press. Other details remain undisclosed so far. ​

Being interviewed on March 24, the shipyard’s CEO Eduard Efimov announced the entry of an export contract for two ships into force. He said the works on that contract were in progress, and the funding schedules had been already approved. Along with construction of two Project 11711 landing ships of the second series, this order is the Yantar’s primary income source.

Chronology

Upon settlement of a number of discords, in the fall of 2018 Moscow and New Delhi signed a suite of shipbuilding contracts regarding four Project 11356 frigates. On November 23, the president of United Shipbuilding Corporation, Alexey Rakhmanov stated that the company was planning to meet the 36-month deadline.

In February 2020, Federal Service for Military & Technical Cooperation reported about the plans to supply India with two frigates [initially keel-laid under names of Admiral Butakov and Admiral Istomin – editor’s remark] within the first half of 2014. India’s Goa Shipyard Limited (GSL) will build other two ships under a technology transfer agreement. All four frigates will be powered by Ukrainian-made engines.

The GSL’s official Mahesh Malkarnekar told Mil.Press at the Army-2019 forum that the Indian shipyard would lay down the two ships in 2020, roughly half a year apart.

When the contract is completed, the fleet of India-operated Burevestnik-class frigates will amount to 10 hulls.

In the Russian Navy, Project 11356 frigates will be replaced by Project 20386 corvettes, Vladimir Tryapichnikov heading the Russian Navy’s Shipbuilding, Weaponry & Operation Dept shared with Mil.Press in May 2019.


Frigates Admiral Butakov and Admiral Istomin at Yantar Shipyard
Forums.airbase.ru, Shurikkk75

For reference

Displacement of Project 11356 frigates (in Indian Navy, guided missile frigates) is 4,000 tons, max speed is 30 knots, endurance is 30 days. Onboard weapons include: 100-mm artillery mount A-190, air defense artillery/missile systems, torpedo and ASW warfare facilities, and long-range cruise missiles Caliber-NK (for Indian Navy, BrahMos). Each frigate accommodates one Ka-27 or Ka-31 helicopter.

Yantar Shipyard Completes Two Frigates for Indian Navy Under New Hull Numbers

<i>Yantar Shipyard</i> (Kaliningrad, Russia) holds on completion of two Project 11356 <i>Burevestnik</i>-class ships. The yard reports on the online public procurement portal that the matter is outfitting work on two frigates, hull numbers 01457 and 01458.

mil.today

 

[bille ka vut]

All of IN's talwars are currently part of the western fleet while all the shivaliks are part of eastern fleet.I wonder where the next 4 talwars would go?..i think all the p17a's would go to the eastern fleet and the new talwars would go to western fleet and if the shivalks are upgraded with barak8 and mfstar in the future ,we will have atleast 14 destroyers and frigates capable of cooperative engagement.some serious firepower

 

[Ankit Kumar]

All of IN's talwars are currently part of the western fleet while all the shivaliks are part of eastern fleet.I wonder where the next 4 talwars would go?..i think all the p17a's would go to the eastern fleet and the new talwars would go to western fleet and if the shivalks are upgraded with barak8 and mfstar in the future ,we will have atleast 14 destroyers and frigates capable of cooperative engagement.some serious firepower

There are some planned transfers from Western Fleet to Eastern Fleet as the Western Fleet gets more modern ships. Delhi Class Destroyers and Brahmaputra Class Frigates are likely to be transferred as and when the remaining Rajput Class go out of service.

 

[bille ka vut]

There are some planned transfers from Western Fleet to Eastern Fleet as the Western Fleet gets more modern ships. Delhi Class Destroyers and Brahmaputra Class Frigates are likely to be transferred as and when the remaining Rajput Class go out of service.

I though the p15b's will replace the rajputs.Navy has plans for 10 more frigates or 5 destroyers any new news on them?

 

[Ankit Kumar]

I though the p15b's will replace the rajputs.Navy has plans for 10 more frigates or 5 destroyers any new news on them?

Requirement drawn up was for 15 Multi Role Air Defence Vessels. It included 3 P15A, 4 P15B and 7 P17A. There might be an extra vessel of P15B or P17A ordered to complete the requirement. When by 2022 a revision of requirements is drawn up, I positively hope for additional P17A ships to be ordered.

We expect a break of 4-5 years after the last P15B is delivered and steel is cut for Next Generation destroyers.

The further plan was for 2 more Talwar Class to replace the first two of now retired Godavari Class. With MII it has grown to 4 frigate project. This might delay the ordering of further P17A ships a bit.

More or less we are looking at 10 Destroyers with Land Attack and Air Defence Capability. 7 Large Frigates with the same capabilities. And 16 General Purpose Frigates.

These are as of now confirmed numbers. Which is a decent force level.

Furthermore we expect quick movement on 7 Corvettes, 6 Missile Vessels and 6 NG OPVs.

 

[bille ka vut]

Requirement drawn up was for 15 Multi Role Air Defence Vessels. It included 3 P15A, 4 P15B and 7 P17A. There might be an extra vessel of P15B or P17A ordered to complete the requirement. When by 2022 a revision of requirements is drawn up, I positively hope for additional P17A ships to be ordered.

We expect a break of 4-5 years after the last P15B is delivered and steel is cut for Next Generation destroyers.

The further plan was for 2 more Talwar Class to replace the first two of now retired Godavari Class. With MII it has grown to 4 frigate project. This might delay the ordering of further P17A ships a bit.

More or less we are looking at 10 Destroyers with Land Attack and Air Defence Capability. 7 Large Frigates with the same capabilities. And 16 General Purpose Frigates.

These are as of now confirmed numbers. Which is a decent force level.

Furthermore we expect quick movement on 7 Corvettes, 6 Missile Vessels and 6 NG OPVs.

The 2018 TPCR mentionted NGF or NGD so i doubt they were talking about any existing projects.also i doubt the Just NGC and mcmv will be enough to keep all our shipyards busy.
Also i doubt navy will order more p17a i remember livefist in a article about navies srsam contest mentioned p17b so we might see those ordered .ofcourse all this is just speculation and i might be very wrong

 

[Hydra]

All of IN's talwars are currently part of the western fleet while all the shivaliks are part of eastern fleet.I wonder where the next 4 talwars would go?..i think all the p17a's would go to the eastern fleet and the new talwars would go to western fleet and if the shivalks are upgraded with barak8 and mfstar in the future ,we will have atleast 14 destroyers and frigates capable of cooperative engagement.some serious firepower

We should keep some in A&N near by areas.

 

[randomradio]

Out of the sanctioned 39 capital warships, IN will have 33 by 2027. But the sanctioned numbers will have to climb by a further 10-15 ships if we are to compete with China. Which means we will need as many as 15-20 new NGD/NGFs in the post 2027 period. We currently operate 23 ships.

PLAN currently has 41 operational destroyers and 15 more entering service by 2021. It's possible more are under construction. There are also 49 active frigates and a new class is coming up soon, and may add 10-20 of this new class. That's a total of 105 ships by 2021. By 2030, this fleet could double, and with ships of far superior designs, like the Type 055.

The USN is a giant. 91 destroyers active and are adding 16 more to the fleet. However 22 of these are the Ticonderogas and are likely to be decommissioned before 2030. Apart from that they plan to add 20 FREMM class frigates, which are actually equivalent to older destroyers in India and China. So they are technically going to add 36 destroyers in the near future. Apart from that, they are gonna operate 24 frigates. But I don't think the actual frigates will play much of a part against China. So that's roughly 105 destroyers before 2030. USN operates much bigger ships with more firepower than the PLAN, but the Chinese should easily be able to exceed that with their Type 055s, as long as they build enough ships.

The Japanese have 41 ships active and 1 more joining the fleet by next year. Out of those, 14 will be decommissioned soon. 27+1 are modern to relatively modern. Next gen destroyers are coming up.

The Australians have 13 active ships. 9 frigates will join the fleet by the end of the decade as replacement ships.

So we have 23 ships now, will climb to 33 by 2027, and we will need a lot more ships beyond that. Climbing up to 1/3rd the Chinese fleet should be the priority by 2035.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Out of the sanctioned 39 capital warships, IN will have 33 by 2027. But the sanctioned numbers will have to climb by a further 10-15 ships if we are to compete with China. Which means we will need as many as 15-20 new NGD/NGFs in the post 2027 period. We currently operate 23 ships.

PLAN currently has 41 operational destroyers and 15 more entering service by 2021. It's possible more are under construction. There are also 49 active frigates and a new class is coming up soon, and may add 10-20 of this new class. That's a total of 105 ships by 2021. By 2030, this fleet could double, and with ships of far superior designs, like the Type 055.

The USN is a giant. 91 destroyers active and are adding 16 more to the fleet. However 22 of these are the Ticonderogas and are likely to be decommissioned before 2030. Apart from that they plan to add 20 FREMM class frigates, which are actually equivalent to older destroyers in India and China. So they are technically going to add 36 destroyers in the near future. Apart from that, they are gonna operate 24 frigates. But I don't think the actual frigates will play much of a part against China. So that's roughly 105 destroyers before 2030. USN operates much bigger ships with more firepower than the PLAN, but the Chinese should easily be able to exceed that with their Type 055s, as long as they build enough ships.

The Japanese have 41 ships active and 1 more joining the fleet by next year. Out of those, 14 will be decommissioned soon. 27+1 are modern to relatively modern. Next gen destroyers are coming up.

The Australians have 13 active ships. 9 frigates will join the fleet by the end of the decade as replacement ships.

So we have 23 ships now, will climb to 33 by 2027, and we will need a lot more ships beyond that. Climbing up to 1/3rd the Chinese fleet should be the priority by 2035.

We need a white paper on our threats and requirements as soon as possible.

 

[randomradio]

We need a white paper on our threats and requirements as soon as possible.

We have a pretty good understanding of IAF and IA's future course of action for the next 20 years.

IA has a publicly informed path of modernisation, a next gen combat vehicle family, FICV and a whole range of guns. Only the future soldier program is mired in secrecy, but I guess that also has a lot to do with the army not yet having finalised anything yet. At least we have somewhat of a fix on the TCS now.

IAF's future is pretty straightforward, LCA, MMRCA, MWF and AMCA. The only thing what we do not have clarity on is the family of wingman drones coming up. For strike it's IUSAV, but for air superiority we do not know. There was a drone with canards released, but that may just be a study. Of course, it will need a next gen indigenous engine with AB anyway.

As for the navy, it's pretty much a blackhole. All we know is some of the terms and some import projects like the P-75I and LHD, which is not a big deal. The terms NGD and NGF are nothing much to go by. For all the new stuff, all we've got is we are getting SSNs and a new class of SSBNs.

So I wouldn't expect a white paper for open source release anytime soon.

 

[ni8mare]

 

[Milspec]

We have a pretty good understanding of IAF and IA's future course of action for the next 20 years.

IA has a publicly informed path of modernisation, a next gen combat vehicle family, FICV and a whole range of guns. Only the future soldier program is mired in secrecy, but I guess that also has a lot to do with the army not yet having finalised anything yet. At least we have somewhat of a fix on the TCS now.

Ha Hah.

 

[bille ka vut]

Why do these guys keep using the older design for the p17a?..is it still on the table or did they just keep it there because it looks cool or just plain lazy?

 

[Hydra]

@vstol Jockey pardon me if it is discussed already or if i am.talking rubbish.
What is the need of 76mm or 126 mm naval gun in modern warfare? Now day no one gonna fight in sea lik what peoples were used to do in WWII. Its an era missiles & torpedoes, why Naval vessels still using a gun which is handicapped with range, rate of fire & accuracy? Why don't we replace these guns with a AK630 ( I know naval vessels do have such weapons on port & starboard side of ship), which is having dual use.
Atleast we can replace 76mm guns of small ships with AK630s. Ships like INS Vibhuthi...

 

[vstol Jockey]

@vstol Jockey pardon me if it is discussed already or if i am.talking rubbish.
What is the need of 76mm or 126 mm naval gun in modern warfare? Now day no one gonna fight in sea lik what peoples were used to do in WWII. Its an era missiles & torpedoes, why Naval vessels still using a gun which is handicapped with range, rate of fire & accuracy? Why don't we replace these guns with a AK630 ( I know naval vessels do have such weapons on port & starboard side of ship), which is having dual use.
Atleast we can replace 76mm guns of small ships with AK630s. Ships like INS Vibhuthi...

These guns are there to stop minor vessels from coming close to a warship. They are defensive weapons and not offensive.

 

[randomradio]

@vstol Jockey pardon me if it is discussed already or if i am.talking rubbish.
What is the need of 76mm or 126 mm naval gun in modern warfare?

Kill boats and ships that approach the ship. Provide indirect fire support for marine landings. They can also provide air defence.

 

[ArgonPrime]

Why are our ships so poorly armed for their tonnage I can't help but wonder.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Why are our ships so poorly armed for their tonnage I can't help but wonder.

Compared to Russia or European or American design agencies, we are still not good enough. Our ships have much lower automation and a lot of redundancy in the form of manual efforts. But then again they might not be as heavily armed as a Type052D but P15a/b have good enough weaponry.

 

[Ashwin]

Why are our ships so poorly armed for their tonnage I can't help but wonder.

It's up to the navy to decide what the requirements and threat perceptions are. If they think the firepower is enough then it is. They can always rearm since the space is available.

 

[ArgonPrime]

It's up to the navy to decide what the requirements and threat perceptions are. If they think the firepower is enough then it is. They can always rearm since the space is available.

Why not arm those ships to the fullest potential from their very inception?? Why wait for a threat to come knocking at the doors before we decide to upgrade?? I'll never get this reactionary mindset.