Shivalik Class (Project 17 A/B) & Talwar Class Frigates
- Thread starter Ashwin
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Зачем Индии фрегаты проекта 11356
Also, a couple of weeks before the statement of Alexei Rakhmanov, curious information appeared on the website of the Ukrainian enterprise Zorya - Mashproekt:
Zorya - Mashproekt signed several contracts with an Indian customer for the supply of a large volume of gas turbine equipment. The signing of the contracts took place on September 12 in Delhi (India). The supply range includes gas turbine engines, gearboxes, spare parts kits. The equipment is intended for ships of various classes that are part of the Indian Navy. The signed contracts also provide for the training of Indian specialists in the operation of gas turbine units and the provision of engineering support.
Under the terms of the contracts, the shipment and delivery of products will be carried out in batches. The first delivery is scheduled for December 2019. In general, the implementation of contracts is envisaged throughout the next 2020. "
It is easy to guess that we are talking about the very M7N.1E for unfinished frigates. But the details of the transaction were not disclosed, and this is the most interesting, since Ukraine once received from Russia money for these gas turbines, but didn’t deliver the goods. It is quite possible that this issue was also settled.
At the moment, it is known that Yantar will complete for India two frigates Admiral Butakov and Admiral Istomin that have already been launched. The next two ships will be built in India at the shipyard "Goa Shipyard Ltd" with the help of our specialists. Currently, the company is awaiting technical documentation from the Northern PKB. What will happen to the third frigate Admiral Istomin is unknown, but it is quite possible that its hull structures will be used in the construction of one of the Indian ships. The Future Will show. In addition, there is information that, when completed, 22 Indian-built systems will be installed, including navigation equipment, a combat information system, ground-based surveillance radar and DRDO HUMSA sonar.
Also,, at the end of 2019, when the frigates will be lifted to the slipway, the Indian Navy team will arrive at the Yantar enterprise to assess the amount of work.
Also, a couple of weeks before the statement of Alexei Rakhmanov, curious information appeared on the website of the Ukrainian enterprise Zorya - Mashproekt:
Zorya - Mashproekt signed several contracts with an Indian customer for the supply of a large volume of gas turbine equipment. The signing of the contracts took place on September 12 in Delhi (India). The supply range includes gas turbine engines, gearboxes, spare parts kits. The equipment is intended for ships of various classes that are part of the Indian Navy. The signed contracts also provide for the training of Indian specialists in the operation of gas turbine units and the provision of engineering support.
Under the terms of the contracts, the shipment and delivery of products will be carried out in batches. The first delivery is scheduled for December 2019. In general, the implementation of contracts is envisaged throughout the next 2020. "
It is easy to guess that we are talking about the very M7N.1E for unfinished frigates. But the details of the transaction were not disclosed, and this is the most interesting, since Ukraine once received from Russia money for these gas turbines, but didn’t deliver the goods. It is quite possible that this issue was also settled.
At the moment, it is known that Yantar will complete for India two frigates Admiral Butakov and Admiral Istomin that have already been launched. The next two ships will be built in India at the shipyard "Goa Shipyard Ltd" with the help of our specialists. Currently, the company is awaiting technical documentation from the Northern PKB. What will happen to the third frigate Admiral Istomin is unknown, but it is quite possible that its hull structures will be used in the construction of one of the Indian ships. The Future Will show. In addition, there is information that, when completed, 22 Indian-built systems will be installed, including navigation equipment, a combat information system, ground-based surveillance radar and DRDO HUMSA sonar.
Also,, at the end of 2019, when the frigates will be lifted to the slipway, the Indian Navy team will arrive at the Yantar enterprise to assess the amount of work.
Old news but I don't think it was posted :
Indian Navy to name 7th frigate in P17A series as 'Mahendragiri'
Indian Navy to name 7th frigate in P17A series as 'Mahendragiri'
Centre inks pact with Goa Shipyard for two missile frigates
By PTI | Nov 14, 2019, 02.14 PM IST
INS Tarkash(F50), a Talwar-Class guided missile frigate.
The Centre has signed a contract with the Goa Shipyard Limited (GSL) for construction of two advanced missile frigates for the Navy, Union Minister of State for Defence Shripad Naik said here on Thursday. This is the state-run shipyard’s largest order so far, he said. The project will be a stepping stone for the Goa Shipyard to construct weapon-intensive and technologically advanced warships in future, and will bolster the ‘Make In India’ objective of the Union government, Naik said.
He was speaking at the launch of an offshore patrol vessel constructed by the GSL for the Indian Coast Guard. Coast Guard’s Director General Krishnaswamy Natrajan and Department of Defence Production Secretary Subhash Chandra were also present on the occasion.
“In recognition of the GSL’s performance and capabilities, the Union government has signed a contract with it for construction of two advanced missile frigates for the Indian Navy,” Naik said. “This is the largest order in the history of GSL and I am confident that with the dedication of all workers and management, the shipyard will execute the project in a time- bound and effective manner,” he said.
The project will ensure work opportunities for a large number of Micro, Small and Medium Enterprises (MSMEs) in Goa, the minister said.
He said the government has been giving a lot of impetus to exports and a number of favourable policy changes have been made to promote export of defence products.”I am pleased to see that PSU shipyards such as the GSL are actively involved in exports and closely interacting with a number of Asian and African countries,” he said.
“Some of the projects are at advanced stages of conclusion. I urge you (GSL) to continue the momentum and increase your global footprint,” the minister said. He also said that the DefExpo 2020, which is scheduled to be held in Lucknow in February, wil also offer an excellent opportunity to showcase the capabilities of India’s defence and shipbuilding industry to foreign visitors and promote the export potential.
Centre inks pact with Goa Shipyard for two missile frigates
By PTI | Nov 14, 2019, 02.14 PM IST
INS Tarkash(F50), a Talwar-Class guided missile frigate.
The Centre has signed a contract with the Goa Shipyard Limited (GSL) for construction of two advanced missile frigates for the Navy, Union Minister of State for Defence Shripad Naik said here on Thursday. This is the state-run shipyard’s largest order so far, he said. The project will be a stepping stone for the Goa Shipyard to construct weapon-intensive and technologically advanced warships in future, and will bolster the ‘Make In India’ objective of the Union government, Naik said.
He was speaking at the launch of an offshore patrol vessel constructed by the GSL for the Indian Coast Guard. Coast Guard’s Director General Krishnaswamy Natrajan and Department of Defence Production Secretary Subhash Chandra were also present on the occasion.
“In recognition of the GSL’s performance and capabilities, the Union government has signed a contract with it for construction of two advanced missile frigates for the Indian Navy,” Naik said. “This is the largest order in the history of GSL and I am confident that with the dedication of all workers and management, the shipyard will execute the project in a time- bound and effective manner,” he said.
The project will ensure work opportunities for a large number of Micro, Small and Medium Enterprises (MSMEs) in Goa, the minister said.
He said the government has been giving a lot of impetus to exports and a number of favourable policy changes have been made to promote export of defence products.”I am pleased to see that PSU shipyards such as the GSL are actively involved in exports and closely interacting with a number of Asian and African countries,” he said.
“Some of the projects are at advanced stages of conclusion. I urge you (GSL) to continue the momentum and increase your global footprint,” the minister said. He also said that the DefExpo 2020, which is scheduled to be held in Lucknow in February, wil also offer an excellent opportunity to showcase the capabilities of India’s defence and shipbuilding industry to foreign visitors and promote the export potential.
Centre inks pact with Goa Shipyard for two missile frigates
Will the new frigates ordered come with a Barak 8 VLS system similar to Admiral Grigovorich class frigates of the Russian Navy or continue using the Shtil-1 single arm launcher currently on our previous 6 Talwar class frigates??
They will probably use the Shtil-1 but in VLS not with the arm launchers. I remember the Navy planning to remove the arm launchers from the Talwar class and opt for VLS when the ships go for a refit. I don't remember what happened to it.
The Shtil-1 is preferred because it offers a longer range than the Barak-1 and less than Barak-8. It is meant to be an intermediate between them. So when Talwar class ships works along side a Kolkata class, you have a comprehensive AD system. The combination will be bettered by the upcoming Shivalik class and Vizag class combo.
Do we have any of our Navy ships with 16 /32 VLS configuration like PN Jinnah class/ type 54a/p??
Isnt 8 VLS confi too small?
Kolkata class, 16 Brahmos VLS & 32 Barak-8 VLS. Oh...you meant 16/32 VLS for Air Defence ? Then no. The Nilgiri class(P-17A) will do that I think.
Yep. But then the Brahmos is a massive missile. Mounting that on a smallish boat will eat up a lot of space. We have to find a smaller/lighter missile to use as the primary weaponry. In any case look at larger ships, the Kolkata class for example. It has a lot of free space and yet chooses no to carry additional weaponry. Its a policy I don't quite understand, but it seems to be the policy Navy follows.
Yes for air defence role , to deal with PAF.
Do u know why we limited Kolkata class destroyer to just 3?
Barak 8s weight is just 275kg. Can we replace 16 cell VLS of Kolkata class with another 32 cell VLS of Barak 8 so that total number is 64????
Probably cost issues???? Or is it engine power?? We certainly need more fire power in our ships
Then the Nilgiri class is the one you are looking for.
A combination of legacy, industry and budget issues. Many of which the Navy has been trying to counter in the Nilgiri class. Will expand if you are interested.
With the amount of space available and assuming the Kolkata doesn't expand on Brahmos or add any electronics, each of those ships have enough deck space to carry over 128 Barak-8 missiles theoretically. But that will come at a hefty price, literally and figuratively. Putting that many missiles on one ship will put a strain on Navy's budget and it will use a almost all usable space. The extra space that the Navy would use for carrying food, fuel, medicine, supplies etc for the crew. This in turn will limit the operating radius of the ships. The ships will have to relatively remain close by to naval bases or fleet tankers. We don't have enough fleet tankers or foreign bases. Although the rapid acquisitions of fuel barges in the Navy along with logistics agreements with various countries is improving the situation. Depending on budgets and priorities we might see the Navy going in that direction.
Although its hard to imagine the Navy increasing the VLS for AD and not for Brahmos. Also increase in VLS, if it happens, will be a balancing act between ship's internal space and VLS numbers. So let's not expect any lofty increase in weapon count.
Cost plays an important role, but its not the only thing. Engine power is not an issue, current engines are good enough. But as always we don't make gas turbines, so there is that.
Any idea as to how many Shtil-1 missiles it will carry. The russian Admiral Grigovorich class carries 24 Shtil-1 missiles in similar no of VLS cells.
There would be a few novices like me, who would love to read in detail, if at all you can elaborate.
I did some calculations and found out that a single Brahmos VLS cell can easily carry 4 Barak 8 missiles. Why do we not go this way. The American Arleigh Burke class destroyers pack their SAMs in a quad pack config in the Mk41 VLS.
Also, when are we going to get rid of the RBU-6000 rocket launchers, they eat quite a lot of space. Nearly every ship of the IN from a small corvette to a large destroyer has those RBU-6000 launchers.
Also, when are we going to get rid of the RBU-6000 rocket launchers, they eat quite a lot of space. Nearly every ship of the IN from a small corvette to a large destroyer has those RBU-6000 launchers.
Our foray into modern military shipbuilding began in the 70s-80s with a lot of Russian technical assistance. As such it was to be expected that Russian influences in design choices and weaponry would remain prominent for decades to come. Our shipyards had some experience in building ships, mostly fishing trawlers, patrol boats etc but knew nothing of how to handle construction of large military vessels. As they lacked technological sophistication, they adopted the easiest way of building ships which was the telescopic construction method. The telescoping method was again a Russian influence.
This method of construction is very simple. You start from the bottom and work your way up. First the keel would be laid, then small blocks of hull would be welded together on the keel. The surface of the hull in contact to water would be put together plate by plate, after one plate is welded it would need to be tested for leakages and so on. Then the extra weld beads would have to be grinded to maintain surface quality. Now once you are done with one plate, move to the next and repeat the whole process. Once the hull is complete and tested in the dry dock for leakages, you will have to test it in a wet dock(leakage and static float test) after that the boat is floated out of the dock in an event called "launching". This is to see if the boat floats well under dynamic conditions. Then repeat the whole block-by-block process for the superstructure and finally you have built a ship.
Pic: A hull module unit of Project 15A Kolkata Class destroyer being built in the Assembly Shop at Mazagon Docks Ltd.
The advantages of this process is that its very simple, doesn't need highly trained labour, doesn't need sophisticated expensive equipment etc. The dis-advantages are : its very time consuming, the cost of ship per unit will be higher than it should be, produces a lot of scrap metal etc.
For any observer of Indian shipbuilding the dis-advantages would sound very familiar. Delayed delivery, cost over runs, expensive per unit costs are some of the most common problems the navy faces today. To answer the initial question of why orders are restricted to 3 or 5 or some other measly number, it is because of these problems. The Navy worries that no matter how modern a ship they may design by the time it is commisioned it might be outdated. Navy also gets the smallest share of budget and the constant cost over runs aren't helping.
So what is the solution out of this doom and gloom situation. Adopting a newer construction method and changing the cycle of piecemeal orders. Over the years the Navy has studied what is known in the west as "Modular construction method". They have worked out what is needed to perform such construction in India and they have modernised shipyards accordingly.
In Modular construction method the entire ship design is cut to large pieces. Think of it like cutting large pieces of a cake. These large blocks would be constructed separately and then joined together to form the entire ship.
L&T Shipyard repairing a large commercial vessel. Look at the size of those blocks.
L&T has managed to utilise modular construction method to deliver every ship ordered by the Coast Guards ahead of schedule and with no cost over runs.
The Navy wants to use this method to build the P-17A class frigates. They have also gone from ordering 3-4 ships to 7 at once. It is also important to remember that the Navy isn't opting for modular construction as it is in the west. They have modified it to our requirements and constraints. Whether this experiment will work or not we'll have to wait and see
Nice explanation.
Which method are Chinese using in their shipyards??? Even they had Russian influence.
Chinese have 30 Type 54A Frigates in PLAN. Commissioning started in 2008 and as per wiki all 30 are in service. This means they delivered 30 ships in 10-11 years through 2 shipyards.
Pakistan has ordered 4 of these in 2018 and all 4 are to be delivered by 2021 just 3 years
Thats absolutely amazing.
In comparison we have Kamorta class corvettes , we have planned 4 in service 3 , 1 being built.
Its construction started in 2005 and only 3 were delivered in 12 years.
What sort of tricks do the Chinese have in their pockets???
I have read somewhere that their shipyards have 3 8hr shifts(basically 24hrs work) a d they do not support any kind of labour unions. Also the shipyards worjers do not have any holidays.Nice explanation.
Which method are Chinese using in their shipyards??? Even they had Russian influence.
Chinese have 30 Type 54A Frigates in PLAN. Commissioning started in 2008 and as per wiki all 30 are in service. This means they delivered 30 ships in 10-11 years through 2 shipyards.
Pakistan has ordered 4 of these in 2018 and all 4 are to be delivered by 2021 just 3 years
Thats absolutely amazing.
In comparison we have Kamorta class corvettes , we have planned 4 in service 3 , 1 being built.
Its construction started in 2005 and only 3 were delivered in 12 years.
What sort of tricks do the Chinese have in their pockets???
The new frigates will come with the Russian equivalent of Barak 8. It's not as advanced, but it's really good, a very decent upgrade over the cuttent SAM used on Shivaliks, Delhis and the older Talwars.