Shivalik Class (Project 17 A/B) & Talwar Class Frigates

[Ashwin]

It may be relatively cheaper to a P-17A but no comparison is terms of capability.

Not relatively cheap but subjectively cheap even for licensed produced version in Goa. Its only $550 million while P17A/B costs double of that.

It was a good purchase 6 years ago for the role of a lower tier frigate. No one could anticipate the Ukraine wars and delays, so there is no point dwelling on the decision.

 

[Adm_Kenobi]

Not relatively cheap but subjectively cheap even for licensed produced version in Goa. Its only $550 million while P17A/B costs double of that.

It was a good purchase 6 years ago for the role of a lower tier frigate. No one could anticipate the Ukraine wars and delays, so there is no point dwelling on the decision.

The four Talwar are coming at 21k crore, which is not cheap or half of what P17A costs. GSL Talwar includes the cost to upgrade the shipyard, but so does P17A (for GRSE), it was never a good decision to buy additional frigates with an arm launcher and a poor radar.

Russians were ready to sell the two grigorovich at no profit only to scam us with GSL Talwar.

 

[Ashwin]

The four Talwar are coming at 21k crore, which is not cheap or half of what P17A costs. GSL Talwar includes the cost to upgrade the shipyard, but so does P17A (for GRSE), it was never a good decision to buy additional frigates with an arm launcher and a poor radar.

Russians were ready to sell the two grigorovich at no profit only to scam us with GSL Talwar.

India inks $950 million deal for Russian frigates

Given that the US has implemented sanctions on weapons purchases from Moscow, India could make payments for the ships using the rupee-rouble route.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

India, Russia to build stealth frigates

Goa Shipyard Ltd. signs ₹500 mn tech transfer deal with Rosoboronexport.

www.thehindu.com

How did you get to this number ?

 

[Adm_Kenobi]

India inks $950 million deal for Russian frigates

Given that the US has implemented sanctions on weapons purchases from Moscow, India could make payments for the ships using the rupee-rouble route.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

India, Russia to build stealth frigates

Goa Shipyard Ltd. signs ₹500 mn tech transfer deal with Rosoboronexport.

www.thehindu.com

How did you get to this number ?

950M for two grigorovich frigates built in Russia (the first link you provided).
$950M ≈ ₹6,840 crore (Oct 2018, USD = 72 INR)

₹14,100 crore for two Talwar being built at GSL, the Russians have charged prime money for ToT and license manufacturing of crap. Cost of upgrading infra is <1000cr. The Russians have a history of scamming us, royalties and licensing fee is one of the reasons why Su-30 MKI costs more than Su-30 SM.

More than 180 contracts valued over Rs 1,96,000 crore signed with Indian Defence Industry since 2014

The Ministry of Defence has signed more than 180 contracts valued at over Rs 1,96,000 crore with the

pib.gov.in

14.1 + 6.84 is approximately 21

 

[randomradio]

950M for two grigorovich frigates built in Russia (the first link you provided).
$950M ≈ ₹6,840 crore (Oct 2018, USD = 72 INR)

₹14,100 crore for two Talwar being built at GSL, the Russians have charged prime money for ToT and license manufacturing of crap. Cost of upgrading infra is <1000cr. The Russians have a history of scamming us, royalties and licensing fee is one of the reasons why Su-30 MKI costs more than Su-30 SM.
View attachment 37717

More than 180 contracts valued over Rs 1,96,000 crore signed with Indian Defence Industry since 2014

The Ministry of Defence has signed more than 180 contracts valued at over Rs 1,96,000 crore with the

pib.gov.in

14.1 + 6.84 is approximately 21

The IN needs the ships, and it's a cheap price to get a third frigate-ready shipyard. When MDL and GRSE transition to building large destroyers like P-18, we will need 2 more frigate-ready shipyards for P-17 and P-15 class ships.

Anyway the IN needs the ships because it's cheaper than sending a third P-17A alongside 2 P-17As. An advanced taskforce can consist of 2 P-17As, 1 Talwar and a supply ship. Not just for operational efficiency at sea, but it helps diversify suppliers and maintenance facilities.

 

[Speedster1]

Russians were ready to sell the two grigorovich at no profit only to scam us with GSL Talwar.

Different deals, same playbook. Gorshkov redux.

The IN needs the ships, and it's a cheap price to get a third frigate-ready

Let's not forget GSL has built Saryu class OPVs, frigate class ships at 2500t.

Anyway the IN needs the ships because it's cheaper than sending a third P-17A alongside 2 P-17As

Zorya remains in Russian cross hairs. If they go up in smoke, GSL will be stranded.

The Russians have developed a local GT for their own use which they will charge us an arm and a leg for.

 

[Ashwin]

950M for two grigorovich frigates built in Russia (the first link you provided).
$950M ≈ ₹6,840 crore (Oct 2018, USD = 72 INR)

₹14,100 crore for two Talwar being built at GSL, the Russians have charged prime money for ToT and license manufacturing of crap. Cost of upgrading infra is <1000cr. The Russians have a history of scamming us, royalties and licensing fee is one of the reasons why Su-30 MKI costs more than Su-30 SM.
View attachment 37717

More than 180 contracts valued over Rs 1,96,000 crore signed with Indian Defence Industry since 2014

The Ministry of Defence has signed more than 180 contracts valued at over Rs 1,96,000 crore with the

pib.gov.in

14.1 + 6.84 is approximately 21

This contract is between the MoD and GSL, not for the value of the ship. A substantial part of this will involve upgrading the shipyard infrastructure alone. We did the same with GRSL around 2010-15. Project 17A was intentionally delayed for them to upgrade the yards. It's a one-time investment to build a capable shipyard. Unless you have a breakdown of the cost, you can't assume that the Russians cheated us and that we just let them do it. Unlike in the past, we don't have any such conclusions today to do so.

Relevant part from Dinakar pari:

“The $500 mn deal is for material, design and specialists assistance from Russia for the two ships. Balance work will be done by GSL, and it will have a whole lot of Indian equipment including BrahMos missiles,” an official source said.

The cost of the engines for the ships which would come directly from Ukraine and the cost of constructing them at GSL are in addition. While the ships are built by Russia, the engines are supplied by Zorya Nashproekt of Ukraine. Four gas turbine engines, gear boxes and specialist support will cost around $50 mn per ship, the source stated.

 

[Adm_Kenobi]

The IN needs the ships, and it's a cheap price to get a third frigate-ready shipyard. When MDL and GRSE transition to building large destroyers like P-18, we will need 2 more frigate-ready shipyards for P-17 and P-15 class ships.

'frigate ready shipyard' is such a farce used to justify the purchase, even after Talwar it won't be able to construct ships longer than 130m. It is the experience in integrating complex systems that GSL will gain, that could have been learned from even constructing ships like NGMV/NGC that have more automated systems. GSL will not be able to build ships like P17 or P15 even after building 10 Talwars, because it doesn't have the facility for constructing ships that big. MDL and GRSE can easily balance making NGD and ships like P17B, MDL is getting a new floating dry dock and GRSE is investing in acquiring other facilities so it frees up the large drydock it already has.

Anyway the IN needs the ships because it's cheaper than sending a third P-17A alongside 2 P-17As. An advanced taskforce can consist of 2 P-17As, 1 Talwar and a supply ship. Not just for operational efficiency at sea, but it helps diversify suppliers and maintenance facilities.

A ship with an arm launcher being part of an advanced task force is only a liability, ordering 3 additional P17A would have reduced the average cost per unit.

This contract is between the MoD and GSL, not for the value of the ship. A substantial part of this will involve upgrading the shipyard infrastructure alone. We did the same with GRSL around 2010-15. Project 17A was intentionally delayed for them to upgrade the yards. It's a one-time investment to build a capable shipyard. Unless you have a breakdown of the cost, you can't assume that the Russians cheated us and that we just let them do it. Unlike in the past, we don't have any such conclusions today to do so.

The 'substantial part' for the upgrade is less than a thousand crore, the one-time investment won't allow it to build ships larger than 130m. The cost of the deal is enough to conclude, that it's $950M for two and then 14.1k for two, it does not cost 7k crore to upgrade a shipyard, and 7k crore is more than enough to fund the operation for all 10 Talwar for 20 years, Project-17A cost also includes the cost for maintenance and upkeep of the ships for 20 years. 'specialist assistance' is just another name for royalties, we wouldn't need this 'specialist assistance' if we didn't order this crap. GSL need not have any steel from Russia or ToT for steel from Russia when we already have DMR-249A. Paying for ToT of outdated design and equipment.

 

[South block]

When did this happen?

On X & Reddit mostly & even on YouTube..... They were all praising it to be aesthetically ..... But need little bit of more refinement & new Radar in case of P-15 Destroyers.