Small Arms & Tactical Equipment

[Maximus]

Have our Para Special Forces undergone equivalent to such a transformation @Maximus

No,there have been some improvement,but too slow and few in numbers.Although , things do seem to be moving in right direction now,given that this government stays in power and our economy does not goes for a dump,in next five years, you can expect substantial movement in this front.

It's all about strategic thinking ,will and money.The capabilities you want to achieve and the training and equipment required for it.

 

[Ymir]

Not only this stock was adjustable in length but also a straight line stock,even though not aligned to the axis of the bore.A straight line stock help in better control of the rifle,mitigating felt recoil .

View attachment 14664

Nice butt, poor shooting technique.

The stock resting on your upper shoulder is a valid technique if your legs are properly balanced, and it's situational, mostly for rapid, moving engagements. It's easy to go from a relaxed, but still on-target shooting stance to one that's fully balanced when you're already half way. Shooting braced like this is fine for moving engagements with carbines, but with larger caliber rifles it's going to result in a bruised shoulder and piss poor accuracy.

That was a huge thing I saw in Afghanistan among the Afghan police and military. We taught them to go from this:

Look at that s***! One shot that the stock's going flying off his shoulder. Garbage, just garbage.

To this:

Much better. Of course stock alignment, situational drilling and shooting, and the individual rifle's ergonomics and caliber play their part in how you hold a rifle, but the stock's bottom on the top of your shoulder? Not on my watch.

For standing shots the stock should rest just below your collar bone, cupped and snug against the meat of your inner shoulder and chest, or braced solely on your chest.

^That's how a professional does it. Two well balanced shooting techniques that work standing or moving.

^He get's it. Nice technique Mr. Putin.

If you need to shoot with the stock resting on your upper shoulder because your neck's to short to see the iron sights properly, use an optic.

2.Sensitivity to water - Piston based rifles,can be fired immediately after being submerged into the water,some even while being submerged in the water,however DI based ar is more sensitive to water,if you fire it without draining all the water ,then it will be prone to malfunction sometime catastrophic in nature.

Very important point. Where I'm from we're always on water - wet, frozen, snowy - it's ubiquitous. We'd jump from shore to sea without any covers, mods or thought to our weapon's malfunctioning when we made shore again. Salt corrosion, metal fatigue from cold waters, ice buildup, never a concern as we knew that when we needed it the HK416 would come through.

 

[zapper]

Have our Para Special Forces undergone equivalent to such a transformation @Maximus

The only Indian spec ops unit that has undergone some significant transformation is the NSG.
NSG went from this

to this

while this is what most Para SF units deployed in the valley look like

I've noticed their Para SF's gear and camo are also different within the same teams and some of em still use Patkas' but they've got the most operational experience when compared to naval & AF's counterparts

Both IAF Garuds & Marcos also have seen some decent improvement and still better than Para SF but nothing on par with western or Russian counterparts

Marcos

Garuds

 

[Ymir]

Indian special forces have definitely seen a marked improvement in their equipment, standardization would help greatly as well.

Western nations largely see their special forces look and be equipped similarly because they source their equipment from the same suppliers. Norway's NFM Group for instance supplies the US, Norway, France, Spain, Chile, and Sweden and numerous others. The helmets, plate carriers, armor and clothing they manufacture are top class and a staple of special operations kit worldwide.

The result of common suppliers is that Western SF largely look the same.

MJK frogman.

The USMC is by no means a poorly equipped branch, but their gear is bulky compared to Norway's Coastal Rangers.

FSK.

We used to face the same problem of a lack of standardization and old kit. Granted we're a smaller nation with more money allocated per person, but finding a common supplier helped greatly. 10-20 years ago it was what ever worked in Germany, the UK and US, all counter-terrorism hotspots.

Russian SF have modernized as they standardized equipment and suppliers. Now they look indistinguishable from any other western SF unit.

 

[Hellfire]

Nice butt, poor shooting technique.

The stock resting on your upper shoulder is a valid technique if your legs are properly balanced, and it's situational, mostly for rapid, moving engagements. It's easy to go from a relaxed, but still on-target shooting stance to one that's fully balanced when you're already half way. Shooting braced like this is fine for moving engagements with carbines, but with larger caliber rifles it's going to result in a bruised shoulder and piss poor accuracy.


For standing shots the stock should rest just below your collar bone, cupped and snug against the meat of your inner shoulder and chest, or braced solely on your chest.

Exactly. I mean, that technique would bring a smile to my face .....

Personally, I prefer the butt dead against my pectorals, 0.5 cms below the clavicle

 

[Hellfire]

while this is what most Para SF units deployed in the valley look like

I've noticed their Para SF's gear and camo are also different within the same teams and some of em still use Patkas' but they've got the most operational experience when compared to naval & AF's counterparts

More to do with 'blending in' when moving. Even the weapons i.e. Tavors and M4s are carried in backpacks and AKs INSAS are carried with designation of some RR unit.

 

[Milspec]

Nice butt, poor shooting technique.

The stock resting on your upper shoulder is a valid technique if your legs are properly balanced, and it's situational, mostly for rapid, moving engagements. It's easy to go from a relaxed, but still on-target shooting stance to one that's fully balanced when you're already half way. Shooting braced like this is fine for moving engagements with carbines, but with larger caliber rifles it's going to result in a bruised shoulder and piss poor accuracy.

I remember my first carbine class, the instructor's first lesson was reiterate that rifle has a comb for cheek weld, not a cheek rest, this is not real estate to rest your cheek but to be treated as a magnet to your big metal cheeks.

he weird piece is British Marksmen focussed on cheek welds and shooting stances quite highly in the imperial days, the assumption would be that Indian Army would have inherited that, but some with the exception of RR and other squads in the army, general Paramil and law enforcement have piss poor idea of how to shoulder a rifle, as well as how to position themselves, silhouettes, etc.

 

[zapper]

More to do with 'blending in' when moving. Even the weapons i.e. Tavors and M4s are carried in backpacks and AKs INSAS are carried with designation of some RR unit.

A significant portion of SF's training is how effectively they use their weapons and gear. It's a lot easier to use the same camo as RR for blending in but it would be foolish to use AKs' or Patkas as additional baggage just for the purpose of blending in. Sure Para SF is a lot more trained than their RR counterparts but I believe it's due to irregular procurement, no standardization and lack of oversight is why we're seeing a mosaic pattern among their units and within units

In modern battlefields, there's no point sending in a highly trained special operative with shoddy gear. That's more like sending India's best pilot on a Mig-21 to face off F-16s'

Given, IA's love for foreign maal and kickbacks...they should've went ahead with something like NFM Group to standardize atleast for Para SF since they're Army's elite while figuring out local alternatives for all regular units



Tonbo's Arjun thermal weapon sights delivered to the Indian Army

https://twitter.com/x/status/1240613798379020288

 

[Gautam]

After LMGs, Indian Army will soon get close-quarter-battle carbines

By: Huma Siddiqui | Published: March 23, 2020 5:53:03 PM

The CQBs for the infantry army of the Indian army is coming through the Fast Track Procurement (FTP), just like the LMGs

The Indian Army is looking to buy 93,895 CQBs in an effort to modernize its infantry.

With the deal for the Light Machine Guns (LMG) in place, the Indian Army is now waiting for the close-quarter-battle carbines (CQB). “A decision is expected by later this month. It is now close to fifteen months since the UAE based Caracal Company was declared L1 after extensive trials for a $ 553.33 million. The Oversight Committee has already submitted its report the Ministry of Defence (MoD),” confirmed a senior officer on condition of anonymity.

The CQBs for the infantry army of the Indian army is coming through the Fast Track Procurement (FTP), just like the LMGs. The Indian Army is looking to buy 93,895 CQBs in an effort to modernize its infantry. However, the deal has not been finalized with the UAE based company.

Despite meeting all the specifications as well as the requirements mentioned in the request for proposal (RFP), and giving detailed responses to the MoD, final decision has not been taken yet.

After being declared as L1, UAE based Caracal has already been through the Commercial Negotiating Committee (CNC), and has completed the Acceptance Test Procedure report, along with other documents has been submitted to the MoD.

The Company is NATO compliant and has been supplying these CQBs to other armed forces across the globe. The trials for the India market were extensive in nature and had been carried out in India as well the home country of the companies who had bid for this order. The tests were carried out with Indian ammunition in different terrain.

Since the deal will be under the FTP, within one year of the inking of the contract he deliveries will start. There is an urgent requirement for seven lakh CQBs, which is why these will come through the FTP.

After LMGs, Indian Army will soon get close-quarter-battle carbines

 

[zapper]

There is an urgent requirement for seven lakh CQBs, which is why these will come through the FTP.

I hope atleast a part of the remaining 6 lakhs are given to SSS Defence

 

[Milspec]

I hope atleast a part of the remaining 6 lakhs are given to SSS Defence

why?

 

[Gautam]

why?

Make in Endyia.

 

[Milspec]

Make in Endyia.

Let's wait on some tests, results. When Berreta, Colt, Remington, bushmaster even Walther can make lemons, let's not get over-excited on a "MII" venture that we know very little about.

 

[Gautam]

Let's wait on some tests, results. When Berreta, Colt, Remington, bushmaster even Walther can make lemons, let's not get over-excited on a "MII" venture that we know very little about.

Point made. Although to be fair, even if the established companies make lemons they still sell. Maybe it won't be a hit in the market but it won't have zero sales. When it comes to Indian private ventures the worry is even if the gun is good they might not get any takers at all.

 

[Aniruddha]

Let's wait on some tests, results. When Berreta, Colt, Remington, bushmaster even Walther can make lemons, let's not get over-excited on a "MII" venture that we know very little about.

The SSS Defence rifle prototypes undergo testing in US before they are certified.
A TOI report was published last year that the SSS sniper rifles passed tests in US conditions with flying colors.
So the chances of them making a dud are quite less

 

[zapper]

why?

There were reports that SSS Defence's snipers were in testing with NSG and some unit of the army (I assume it's Para SF). Also, it's highly likely their lineup was designed by consultants from the west, particularly from LMT and didn't necessarily go for a JV since they wanted the IP to be Indian. This is very similar to what Caracal does since Arabs don't know jack-shiite about small arms design and hired consultants from the US

IA figured out about Tonbo's sights and MKU's helmets only during a joint exercise when some NATO unit was using em only after which they placed orders in decent numbers. SSS should pitch their rifles to foreign and local military & police units to catch the attention of IA.

 

[Milspec]

The SSS Defence rifle prototypes undergo testing in US before they are certified.
A TOI report was published last year that the SSS sniper rifles passed tests in US conditions with flying colors.
So the chances of them making a dud are quite less

I don't think there is any agency in US that "Certifies" Small arms.

Which tests? would love to read more, post some links.

 

[Milspec]

There were reports that SSS Defence's snipers were in testing with NSG and some unit of the army (I assume it's Para SF). Also, it's highly likely their lineup was designed by consultants from the west, particularly from LMT and didn't necessarily go for a JV since they wanted the IP to be Indian. This is very similar to what Caracal does since Arabs don't know jack-shiite about small arms design and hired consultants from the US

IA figured out about Tonbo's sights and MKU's helmets only during a joint exercise when some NATO unit was using em only after which they placed orders in decent numbers. SSS should pitch their rifles to foreign and local military & police units to catch the attention of IA.

sure, lets see what happens.

 

[Austerlitz]

Indian rifle has retained the 203’s railed top cover, contoured ergonomic pistol grip and its muzzle device. However, it has not opted for the Russian 203’s adjustable but stock, instead opting for the simpler AK-103 folding stock and handguard (with no top rail).
The primary, non-ergonomic, upgrades of Kalashnikov Concern’s AK-203 include an improved barrel with tighter tolerances and a top cover which is held more firmly in place by a locking lever – allowing simpler and more stable optics mounting (without the need for a side mount). Indian 203 has retained this system.
Indian rifle has opted to retain the railed top cover and locking lever system but has the AK-103’s more traditional style of selector lever, which lacks the Russian 203’s finger tab for easier manipulation without moving the right hand too far off the pistol grip.



''1: The low-profile traditional selector is less prone to snagging to web gear (if left-handed) or twigs. Probably a concern for Indian troops, some of whom still use LBE-style vests or belt-suspender rigs. Honestly, my preference on an AK safety is a knob drilled and tapped onto the lever. More expensive than a bent extended finger tab (hence lack of adoption), but it doesn't snag as badly (the domed knob end tends to slip off twigs and stuff)

2: More of an internal security concern, but us South Asians love using the buttstock as a less lethal implement. While I'm sure the telescoping folder works fine, the fixed folder handles and wears down better for that purpose, and it also drives down $$$. I wouldn't take that route (flat side or spine of khukuri all the way) but it does make sense for that context.

3: Unlike #2 I actually agree with the deletion of the top rail handguard. It's not used for optics anyways, and PEQ and similar unit would obstruct sights... IMHO I'd prefer a rail fixed to a gas tube anyways if it comes to that. But I probably wouldn't because, railed hinged top cover.

On the end note, I find the cutout on the stock for the side rail a little goofy. I understand Kalashnikov JSC wouldn't want to make a whole new mold for the stock, seeing that 100 series is still in production, but if India would make it themselves, I don't see why that feature should be retained, except of course if they already have AK103 folder rifles in stock.''

Some views posted by apparently a veteran on why indian ak-203 is the curious hybrid it is.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1242437304389517316