Small Arms & Tactical Equipment

[Maximus]

I have seen some Indian claiming Pakistani army/infantry is better equipped than the Indian counterpart , which looks like a 3rd world country.

Any experts opinion where we are exactly standing in terms of modernization cycle when it comes to these two nation and of course the mother Russia

Thanks in advance

*Not an expert ;Overview based on my observation :

Yes,Pakistani army gear,small weapons,border infrastructure has been better than India in most cases.It is mostly because Pakistani army is the main power center ,it result in better financial allotment ,spending and decision making.Their military procurement is more efficient due to this,however it is also marred by corruption and abuse of power.Pakistan does not have a big economy like India,despite of this they do make good utilization of the resources in hand,as far as military procurement is concerned.

However,in recent time Indian army has made significant gains in weapons ,gear and infrastructure which is an ongoing process.New helmets,BPJ,rifles have been procured whereas new plate carriers,boots,combat fatigue,bags are in line,similarly the border infrastructure has got a big boost in form of anti infiltration grid ,cameras sensor and radars .If the modernization continues at a brisk pace they might soon takeover Pakistan in terms of gear,weapons and infrastructure.On the other hand the modernization in Pakistani army has either become slow or stagnant due to fund crunch .Bad economy has adversely affected there procurement plans and all the major upgrade have been put on hold due to lack of money.Bottom line is both the armies are undergoing the process of modernization,how effectively it is done only time will tell,maybe around ten years from now.


None the less,I feel we should set higher standard than the Pakistan army when looking for modernization .Of course it is not practically viable to compete with US army in term of fund and resources spend on each soldier ,however it is possible to develop cheaper,made in India alternatives to various gear used by them,albeit at a slightly lower quality.I find no reason on why we can't leapfrog our modernization at a fraction of cost .


When we talk about modernization leapfrog is a key word.We should not look towards the present standard but the futuristic,upcoming technologies. For example take the case of new ballistic helmet of Indian army,I am disappointed with it,we should have aimed toward better design,better modularity,better protection with it,instead of going with old PASGAT style.For example here is the new US army helmet :

One thing I sincerely wish to see standardized in our armed forces is some kind of ear protection,whether it is ear plug or muff.One hazard a soldier is constantly exposed to is high decibel sounds ,a constant exposure to them adversely affect the ear drums,ear protection have been overlooked and undermined till now in Indian army.A domestic ,cheaper alternative to peltor with hearing protection,enhanced listening and hands free two way communication is something a soldier should have.

 

[Maximus]

where we are exactly standing in terms of modernization cycle when it comes to these two nation and of course the mother Russia
Thanks in advance

Regarding Russia,I am not so sure about the "mother Russia" or even the friendship part ,IMHO what we have is a relationship of convenience. Rest after going through the name calling and their general attitude towards India and Indians in their various military forum ,plus how Russia behaves in military procurement deals,I am not too sure about our "brotherhood".


Coming to their armed forces modernization ,they are modernizing under project RATNIK .Through the program they are introducing new body armor,vest,uniform,helmet,bags,communication equipment ,weapons ,optics,it also includes food, water filters, medical supplies, tent and sleeping bag etc basically revamping their military overall.The new Russian helmet can stop pistol round from a distance of 5m and weigh 1.06 kg,similarly new bpj can stop 10 armor piercing dragunov round from a distance of 10m.

The combat equipment “Ratnik” is conditionally divided into systems of protection, defeat, life and energy supply. It uses a variety of bulletproof helmets and body armor, combat overalls, a headset with a hearing protection system, safety glasses. In addition, the equipment package includes: a grenade launcher, assault rifles, sniper rifles, ammunition, a combat knife, as well as round-the-clock reconnaissance devices, unified optical and thermal imaging sights. In total, there are 59 elements of equipment for the shooter, scout, driver, and other special forces.


Here is a good read on Ratnik,where the general director of central research institute and precision engineering is interviewed about the Ratnik kit.
Комплект «ратник» и прочие новшества экипировки и стрелкового оружия. — Дмитрий Семизоров — Арсенал — Эхо Москвы, 09.02.2015

They have started issuing these new kits to the military from the year 2016,however it is being introduced in batches and the kit is not standard ,it keeps on improving and evolving with improvement incorporated in next batches. Up till now they have Ratnik 1st generation and ratnik 2nd generation with work on Ratnik 3rd generation underway.They are aiming to introduce 3rd generation ratnik by year 2026,it will have :A built in exoskeleton,a helmet with visor having target designation system,The sensors installed in it ,in real time will monitor the physical condition of the person and transmit information about him to the commander. All these data with the exact coordinates of the soldier will allow the officer to decide on the need for a break during a long march or the provision of medical care.A special mask will also be built into the helmet, which can play the role of a gas mask, but will be more convenient and comfortable.The bullet proof vest will have built in power to keep solider warm in winter,the camouflage will be able to change colour depending on the surrounding etc.

 

[Maximus]

Regarding the modernization of Indian Army ,we did have FINSAS program ,it stand cancelled now due to lack of fund.Our new approach to modernization is to procure individual item separately, not as a whole system;as the budget permits in order of preference and urgency of requirement.


As far as the modernization of Russian SF is concerned ,I will let the pictures do the talking :

 

[BlackAnt]

SSG seems better equipped than our para sf..

 

[Lolwa]

So

SSG seems better equipped than our para sf..

Right now our sf is on par with SSG in terms of equipment. Once afsod starts functioning we will be closer to tier 2 sf of western forces

 

[BlackAnt]

So

Right now our sf is on par with SSG in terms of equipment. Once afsod starts functioning we will be closer to tier 2 sf of western forces

we are still using peq2s, these guys seem to have peq15s.

 

[Lolwa]

we are still using peq2s, these guys seem to have peq15s.

Yeah we actually don't take our small arms as seriously as the SSG. There is no foregrip and we don't use more modern firing techniques like c-clamp. But in terms of overall gear we are at smilar levels. Right now their plate carriers are superior to ours much similar to nato spec forces. Their camo is also better than ours. The tavors and m4 have been used for a decade atleast by this time new standard issue spec ops rifles should be here but

 

[BlackAnt]

Yeah we actually don't take our small arms as seriously as the SSG. There is no foregrip and we don't use more modern firing techniques like c-clamp. But in terms of overall gear we are at smilar levels. Right now their plate carriers are superior to ours much similar to nato spec forces. Their camo is also better than ours. The tavors and m4 have been used for a decade atleast by this time new standard issue spec ops rifles should be here but

i hear the deal is stuck....its just depressing.

 

[Parthu]

There is no foregrip

Pretty much 100% of M4s used by Paras have some forward grip. Typically a Knight's Armament grip or grip-pod. Rarely if ever seen a Para M4 without it.

Of course if the question is about the TAR-21 that gun doesn't have a railed handguard so its moot. There are versions of Tavor with rails but Paras haven't adopted any of them.

As of the wider comparison of equipment levels between Indian & Pakistani SOFs, I'd say they're pretty similarly equipped. Each side scores a few more points than the other in certain categories, but nothing much either way. It's sad really...Indian SOF have all the opportunity & resources to kit up on a par with global Tier-1s but don't.

 

[zapper]

SSG seems better equipped than our para sf..

Seems like they're also better trained

 

[Chain Smoker]

Seems like they're also better trained

lol they are killed by our regulars on daily basis..........

 

[RISING SUN]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1250793922147659776

 

[Maximus]

I want to see these accessories standard issue across the force,for ak "203"

1. Foregrip : Basically a grip which attaches to the rifle hand guard and is meant to provide better support to the shooter off hand ,control of the rifle,limit the muzzle rise,enable quicker shooting transactions and manage the recoil.

When we talk about the foregrip on the rifle it can generally be classified into three broad categories :

a .Handstop : A handstop is a bare minimum,lightweight,and small protrusion which attaches to your handguard,It basically act as a reference point for your grip and as the name suggest,stops your hand from sliding backward when you press the rifle towards your shoulder for better control and recoil mitigation.It is very low profile and does not add much to your rifle form.It facilitate the use of c-clamp grip on the rifle.The handstop come in various shape and design,some handstop have forward stop to prevent your fingers to come in contact with the hot barrel.They are made from variety of materials right from polymer to aluminium.

b.Vertical/post foregrip : Similar to handstop ,it provide support to the off hand and help in controlling the recoil and muzzle flip.Unlike the handstop it offer your offhand a much larger area to grasp,it enable the offhand to devoid of any contact with the handguard,if required.As the name suggest it is generally vertical in shape and position. There are many shape,sizes and design of vertical foregrip ,for example fold able foregrip ,which can be folded in line with the handguard when not required,adjustable foregrip,which can be adjusted to various angles,as per shooter comfort and choice.Beside these many foregrip have empty storage compartment ,where you can store batteries or oil,many foregrip come integrated with a bipod which can be deployed with a press of a button,such bipod act as a support of the rifle,especially in a prone position and enable accurate shooting.Beside this there are vertical foregrip which have ir laser and flashlight integrated to them,or side rail to mount such things.These are either made up of polymer or aluminium. It is much bigger and heavier than a handstop.

c. Angled foregrip - As the name suggest it is an angled grip,which unlike the vertical grip extend horizontally along the rifle handguard.In this your palm is facing upward while knuckles downwards while gripping the handguard,this is supposed to be the most natural postion of grip,hence it offer better control of the rifle.The support hand is in extended position,while muzzle of the rifle is controlled by the movement of the wrist which result in lesser fatigue and quicker target transactions.This grip occupy the maximum amount of the rail space when compared to hand stop or vertical grip.

What is he doing,with that grip

Each of these grip has their pros and cons ,the choice among these depends on the individual preference and shooting style.However ,when choosing as a standard issue accessory for an army,that too for an ak rifle I would prefer to go with vertical foregrip.My reasons for this is :

i- Vertical foregrip occupy very less rail space,which is already very small on an ak due to its short handguard.
ii- Vertical grip is the most versatile,as it allow shooter to manipulate his grip in different positions as per his choice .
iii-Rifles such ak get hot very fast,which result in heat transfer from barrel to the handguard,a vertical foregrip will help in keeping the support hand away from a hot handguard.

Now the question arise which type of vertical grip should we opt for an ak. Personally I would prefer a bipod integrated or different positions adjustable folding grip ,however the main point which we should keep in mind while selecting a vertical foregrip for an ak is that it should be either short or medium in length,this is because unlike ar where mag is either slide up or down the mag rocking and release in ak involve angular movement,you have to move forward the mag during mag release in an ak,a big pistol grip if positioned too close to the mag well would hinder this movement ,thus slowing the mag change on the rifle. Of course if kept away from the mag well at the muzzle end of the rifle ,a long foregrip would not cause such problems but then it would severely restrict you grip placement along the rifle,Hence a medium or short fore grip would be preferred on an ak.

 

[Maximus]

2 . Tactical flashlight : As the name suggest it is flashlight ,but much more powerful and brighter than your regular flashlight,compact,lightweight,long lasting ,high battery life,robust and reliable ,abuse friendly ,built of high grade materials and design to go along with your firearm.Why we need a tactical flashlight ;

a.One of the most important rule of shooting is to know what you are shooting at,a tactical flashlight enable target identification in dark,being attached to your rifle,it will cut down your reaction time for engaging a threat.Since it will not be possible to issue nvg to each soldier,a tactical flashlight provide a cheap and reliable means for fighting in dark.Please do note when we talk about fighting in dark ,it does not only refer to night time but also at times during the day when you have to fight in low light conditions,like 26/11 inside the taj hotel.

b.Beside target identification ,other advantage of flashlight is that it will disorient your target ,when faced with its bright rays in darkness.It will provide you valuable seconds of reaction time between life and death.Most of the tactical flashlight come with flashing strobe mode ,for this purpose only.

I would prefer a led flashlight,which is powerful,light,long battery life ans compact in profile ,so that it does not disrupt form of the rifle.

BTW attaching the flashlight to the barrel through a metal clamp like this is not correct,with few rounds down the barrel it will heat up,the clamp would act as a heat sink,transferring all the heat to the flashlight,which will eventually fry its batteries, rendering it useless.

3.Magazine - It is now clear that we will be getting black,opaque,polymer magazine for our AK.I would have prefer a mag with window like ak 12 or mag from fab defense,it is ironic that Indian army had opted for a translucent polymer mag for insas,and now it is taking a step backward with these opaque mags,when reliable and robust mag which enable round count are available.However,right now when I talk about the magazine,I am talking about the number of mag issued to each soldiers.I want 7mags to be standard issue to each soldier.With 3 mags in front,2 on sides,1 on belt and one on the rifle,Basically 210 round of 7.62x39m to be standard issue loadout.

4.Red dot sight - It is good to be proficient in use of iron sight,one should certainly master it as it will form the base of your shooting skill.However to rely on it as you primary option in this day and age when many reliable,robust,accurate easy to mount optical sight are available will be foolish to say the least,iron sight should serve as a backup option and your primary should be an optical sight,for ak 203 a good reflex sight would serve the purpose.Eye relief,accurate shooting,quick target acquisition,fast transaction between targets,enhance cqb shooting,shooting at night or in low light conditions are few of the advantages which make the use of an optical sight a no brainier,if optical sights are not made a standard issue in our military,it will be not a mistake but a criminal negligence imo.I like aim point red dot,however a cheaper local alternative will also do.Recently Eotech was sold to an american private management firm,I wish our government would have bought it instead.

Therefore I would want a vertical foregrip,tactical flashlight , 7 magazine and a red dot sight to be standard issue to each and every soldier along with ak 203.

 

[Maximus]

In addition to these for Ghataks,QRT,other commandos,Special forces I would like to add two more items to the list :

5 IR laser - Important for night operation and fighting in low light conditions ,ir and visible laser help in quick target acquisition and accurate shooting while ir illuminator help in target identification.Beside this it also enhance your cqb shooting in the daytime with quick shot placement and transactions among targets. It can also be used as an effective target markers ,for other members of the team or for close air support with unguided bombs.It is an essential modern war fighting tool,if it can be cost effective ,I would want to see it as standard issue throughout the force,if not,the least we can do is to issue it to our specialized troops.

6.Suppressor - A suppressor will facilitate ear relief,improve situational awareness,communication ,facilitate fighting with nods on,reduce muzzle flip,recoil ,allow faster follow up shots.Lower flash and sound signature,ease cqb shooting;especially indoors.

 

[Maximus]

7. Optical sight - I would like them to have a scope ,specifically made around 7.62x39mm round with magnification,instead of a simple reflex sight.One such optic is Primary Arms Gen II 3x Compact Prism Scope,it has a bright reticle and bullet drop compensator for 7.62x39mm round,which means it shows the ballistic of 7,62x39mm bullet drop at various distance and enable you to aim as per the range of the target.Beside this it also has windage reticle,which help you to make hit in windy conditions,by compensating for the bullet drift .Other interesting feature is inbuilt rangefinder,estimating the average height to be 5'10 it can help you to determine the range of your target.It also has a feature known as leading target,what it does basically is compensate for the speed of the target ,if the target is running and is at 90 degree angle from you,you have to just place the lead dot on the target and you would be able to hit it ,upto the distance of 300 yards.This sight has 3x zoom,which enable to hit target accurately at a distance.Only downside I see is that the measurement is done in yards,a special request can be made to the company to set the reticle based on meters for us.

Though this scope is equally capable for CQB,I would like them to also have a micro red dot sight ,to go with it.

 

[Lolwa]

N

Seems like they're also better trained

Nah they keep getting butchered by terrorists and insurgents in KPK and Balochistan. Also the situation is so bad that SSG is only used for foreign joint exercises. I have never seen a regular infantry unit going for a joint exercise. That equipment is due to American wot and joint operation with them. Personally I wouldn't mind to send a battalion of para guys in Afghanistan . Similar to how the polish did and getting some tier 1 units

 

[Gautam]

@Parthu @Milspec @Ashwin @nair @randomradio @_Anonymous_ et al

https://twitter.com/x/status/1252206036246646785

I hear hindi talking in the background. Army spec ops trials then.

 

[_Anonymous_]

@Parthu @Milspec @Ashwin @nair @randomradio @_Anonymous_ et al

https://twitter.com/x/status/1252206036246646785

I hear hindi talking in the background. Army spec ops trials then.

Thanks for the tag. Not too interested in small arms but welcome development nonetheless. Time DRDO got out of small arms development & left it to small scale developers who're specialists in them be they the OFB or pvt firms like this one.

Imagine how ridiculous it reads where the same R&D organization which is developing cutting edge state of the art systems like BM, CM, BMD, AESA radars, aircraft engines, etc also is into developing small arms.

Incidentally, if memory serves me right , a few months ago, PKS was claiming that this particular group may have manufactured this rifle in India but the Design & development was done by either a foreign company or by this company's sister organizations based outside of India.

 

[Maximus]

@Parthu @Milspec @Ashwin @nair @randomradio @_Anonymous_ et al

https://twitter.com/x/status/1252206036246646785

I hear hindi talking in the background. Army spec ops trials then.

Most probably with NSG.