For IA's selection, it all triggers down to who offers the most attractive kickbacks package
Small Arms & Tactical Equipment
- Thread starter Parthu
- Start date
As I elaborated in the next post. DI guns although claim free float in X-Y plane, they really are not due to the gas tube.
Next: No one in the gun industry claims any free floating on an AK, and in the gun industry still free float means mostly free float, except for AR hick fanboys,
I have shot the same AR (Magpul forend, and Primary arms fore-end on the same rifle) with and without free float, there is no notable difference in accuracy and the reason lies within the mechanics of the support mechanism. That's my observation.
I have been shooting AKM for the last 10 years, I have run through more than 8000 rounds, a Barrel , and a fire control group later, have had no issues with the rifle. If the army thinks it suits its purpose and they are fine with the 7.62x39 rounds shortcomings, I see no issue with the rifle. Especially variants builts in Izhevsk.
The issue you mention was solved probably 50 years ago. with the first of AKM with side rails, So much so the side rails are the only mounts that will always hold a zero even if the optic is removed and remounted. Every AK built in Russia Poland, China, and Romania has always come with side-mounted rail.
An idea that one needs ToT for rifles is something we all need to be ashamed of. Especially when the same nation boasts of building rockets and ICBM's.
No one has stopped South block from doing so, we have been running around in circles about Infantry rifles since 08, At this point, I am ok with any proven new rifle.
I don't know anything about SSS defence P72, Never seen it in action, or seen any reviews on it or read any reports on competitive testing and far far away from ever shooting it. I rarely comment on small arms I haven't shot, so can tell if its any good. Why or why not the company should be backed, again don't know much about it; if it has strength in engineering and quality it will succeed, if not then it will be another gun company that bites the dust as there have been 100's in the US and around the world.
If it’s being tested by para sf then that’s awesome. Which rifle?
We’re any other details given?
1100 dollars is including price of setting up infrastructure and tech transfer,not off the shelf buy like sig for 1000.
AFAIK, there will be a tender for 200-250k guns for frontline troops. So SSS can come in then. The AK-203s are for everyone else except frontline infantry.
The design looks fairly basic but still way better than OFB crap...looks more like those $300-500 AR's you get in the US. They could start pitching these rifles to state police for a start
Thanks to Sourajit Dutta on Twitter, this is apparently a pic of the 716 during trials in India -
So it appears the 716s that we got are actually fitted with a full-length M-LOK handguard taken from the 716 TREAD (a recent addition to SIG's 2020 product catalog):
...now this handguard is intended for accommodating a Direct-Impingement gas system (716 TREAD is DI), I've looked closely and can't find anything to suggest the 716s in IA hands are SS piston-driven.
So this could imply that we actually ordered & got DI 716s, not pistons. I'll designate this unique Indian variant (TREAD handguard, DI, potentially full-auto capable, Magpul CTR stock instead of TREAD SL-K stock) as the 716i.
@Maximus @Milspec
So it appears the 716s that we got are actually fitted with a full-length M-LOK handguard taken from the 716 TREAD (a recent addition to SIG's 2020 product catalog):
...now this handguard is intended for accommodating a Direct-Impingement gas system (716 TREAD is DI), I've looked closely and can't find anything to suggest the 716s in IA hands are SS piston-driven.
So this could imply that we actually ordered & got DI 716s, not pistons. I'll designate this unique Indian variant (TREAD handguard, DI, potentially full-auto capable, Magpul CTR stock instead of TREAD SL-K stock) as the 716i.
@Maximus @Milspec
First Images Of Indian Army With Their New SIG716 Assault Rifles
By Shiv Aroor
Mar 08 2020, 11:49 am
So these images just dropped. Those are Indian Army soldiers at the Infantry School in central India with their brand new U.S. built SIG716 G2 Patrol assault/battlefield rifles. Seen here on Livefist for the first time since the new firearms began arriving in December, maker Sig Sauer Inc. will complete deliveries of 72,400 of these by the end of this year.
The Indian Army ordered the SIG716 last February as part of a wider, urgent, effort to bring new assault weapons into its infantry units quickly, while sidestepping the traditional curse of piecemeal, stopgap purchases of the past. As Livefist has reported, the new SIG716 rifles are part of a two-pronged procurement drive. While these rifles will be sent to priority units deployed in counter-insurgency and frontier anti-terror roles, a requirement of nearly 700,000 new assault rifles for regular infantry units will be met by the Kalashnikov AK-203. After some delays, and with paperwork in place, an order for the AK-203 could finally come this year. The rifles are to be manufactured in country at a joint venture facility of Kalashnikov and India’s Ordnance Factor Board at Korwa in U.P.’s Amethi.
The SIG716 G2 Patrol is an enhanced assault rifle featuring a 16-inch barrel, M-LOK handguard, and a 6-position telescoping stock. The weapons are being supplied to the Indian Army from Sig Sauer’s facility in New Hampsire, U.S.
“The global importance of this contract for SIG SAUER is far reaching based on the size, location, and economic strength of India in the global market,” says Ron Cohen, President and CEO, SIG SAUER, Inc. “We are very proud, and honored that the SIG716 was chosen for use by the fighting forces of the Indian Army, and we are looking forward to developing a strong partnership with India’s Ministry of Defense.”
“This [was] the first large firearms procurement of the Indian Government in decades, and the explicit mission for this tender was to modernize the infantry troopers of the Indian Army with the best rifle available,” said Cohen last February. “We competed in an open tender with small arms manufacturers from around the world. The SIG716 rifle underwent a comprehensive and exhaustive testing and evaluation process where it outperformed the competition, and was ultimately chosen, and met all the criteria, as the best rifle to modernize the Indian Army.”
The SIG716 isn’t the only American-built firearm in the Army’s inventory. The Para Special Forces have inducted unspecified numbers of the M4A1 carbine for years and have recently begun receiving Barrett M95 purpose built sniper rifles (in addition to the Italian Victrix Minerva Scorpio TGT.) The Indian government is also expected to conclude a delayed order for 93,385 CAR816 carbines from UAE firm Caracal this year.
The SIG716 and AK-203 featured on the latest episode of BattleCry with Livefist’s Shiv Aroor on India Today TV. Here’s the full episode if you’d like to watch:
https://www.livefistdefence.com/202...rmy-with-their-new-sig716-assault-rifles.html
By Shiv Aroor
Mar 08 2020, 11:49 am
So these images just dropped. Those are Indian Army soldiers at the Infantry School in central India with their brand new U.S. built SIG716 G2 Patrol assault/battlefield rifles. Seen here on Livefist for the first time since the new firearms began arriving in December, maker Sig Sauer Inc. will complete deliveries of 72,400 of these by the end of this year.
The Indian Army ordered the SIG716 last February as part of a wider, urgent, effort to bring new assault weapons into its infantry units quickly, while sidestepping the traditional curse of piecemeal, stopgap purchases of the past. As Livefist has reported, the new SIG716 rifles are part of a two-pronged procurement drive. While these rifles will be sent to priority units deployed in counter-insurgency and frontier anti-terror roles, a requirement of nearly 700,000 new assault rifles for regular infantry units will be met by the Kalashnikov AK-203. After some delays, and with paperwork in place, an order for the AK-203 could finally come this year. The rifles are to be manufactured in country at a joint venture facility of Kalashnikov and India’s Ordnance Factor Board at Korwa in U.P.’s Amethi.
The SIG716 G2 Patrol is an enhanced assault rifle featuring a 16-inch barrel, M-LOK handguard, and a 6-position telescoping stock. The weapons are being supplied to the Indian Army from Sig Sauer’s facility in New Hampsire, U.S.
“The global importance of this contract for SIG SAUER is far reaching based on the size, location, and economic strength of India in the global market,” says Ron Cohen, President and CEO, SIG SAUER, Inc. “We are very proud, and honored that the SIG716 was chosen for use by the fighting forces of the Indian Army, and we are looking forward to developing a strong partnership with India’s Ministry of Defense.”
“This [was] the first large firearms procurement of the Indian Government in decades, and the explicit mission for this tender was to modernize the infantry troopers of the Indian Army with the best rifle available,” said Cohen last February. “We competed in an open tender with small arms manufacturers from around the world. The SIG716 rifle underwent a comprehensive and exhaustive testing and evaluation process where it outperformed the competition, and was ultimately chosen, and met all the criteria, as the best rifle to modernize the Indian Army.”
The SIG716 isn’t the only American-built firearm in the Army’s inventory. The Para Special Forces have inducted unspecified numbers of the M4A1 carbine for years and have recently begun receiving Barrett M95 purpose built sniper rifles (in addition to the Italian Victrix Minerva Scorpio TGT.) The Indian government is also expected to conclude a delayed order for 93,385 CAR816 carbines from UAE firm Caracal this year.
The SIG716 and AK-203 featured on the latest episode of BattleCry with Livefist’s Shiv Aroor on India Today TV. Here’s the full episode if you’d like to watch:
https://www.livefistdefence.com/202...rmy-with-their-new-sig716-assault-rifles.html
Is there any difference between ak103M standard used by marcos in valley and ak203 which we are buying with standard butt stock like ak103
MARCOS use the standard AK-103, no one in India used the 103M. Of course MARCOS and others have installed railed dust covers & other aftermarket kit on their AKs (103s or otherwise) from likes of FAB Defense, but they're not technically 103M unless all the kit is coming from Kalashnikov.
Internally (action, bolt group, gas system) the 103, 103M and 203 are all exactly the same, no functional difference. The only differences between the 103s MARCOS already use and the 203 that we're buying now are:
1) Railed dust cover on 203 straight from factory, no need for aftermarket purchases or receiver-supported scope mounts on side.
2) Receiver dust cover is hinged on 203, allowing better ability to retain zero for optics.
3) New muzzle device on 203, a cross between flash hider & compensator. Appreciable improvement over 103 muzzle device.
4) Ergonomic pistol grip on 203, allowing for more a comfortable grip for shooting arm.
5) Tri-rail handguard on 203, allowing for attachment of vertical grips, flashlights and/or lasers without needing aftermarket purchases.
AK Parts - AK Free Float Handguards - Page 1 - SLR Rifleworks
MERC Freefloat Handguard
[SHOT 2020] Arsenal's New AK-20 Series of Rifles -
SIG716 | Sig Sauer
Great,hope you share with us the valuable insight gained through your experience with AKM,both bad and good.At the risk of sounding repetitive,AK 103 might be a fine rifle,however the decision to mass manufacture and TOT of it at this point of time is a bad decision,in my opinion. We could have ,should have done better than a plain vanilla ak in 2020.Or do you suggest ,since there is nothing wrong with the AKM(wooden/bakelite furniture),we ahould save some more money and manufacture the AKM of 60s.
My main problems are :
1 AK top cover venerability.
2.Why no competitive trials were held.
3.Why no competitive bidding.(if you wanted to get the best value)
4.Why opt for vanilla ak ,when AK 203,AK 15 are available ( It is like opting plain pasgat helmet without any rail,or nvg shroud, but when you realize the need to mount nvd, then purchase much expensive helmet for it.)
5.How is this an upgrade over insas ,other than the perceived reliability.
6.When Russia themselves ,are decommissioning a platform and moving to other ,in the name of modernization,then why are we acquiring the same decommissioned platform in the name of modernization.It's like India is phasing out Insas ,and other country start adopting Insas in the name of modernization.Is this how super power 2020 modernize its forces.
An AK, no doubt a great platform,but is front heavy, thus do not have the best of weight balance,iron sight are not the best -especially for a distance shooting,short fat hand guard -not optimum for gripping,distributing recoil or better control of the rifle,shooter form,the hand guard does get hot quickly in rapid firing.Then problem in mounting of optics and accessory ,due to insatiability of top cover,and gas tube rail plus doubt over return to zero and maintaining STP(point of aim) due to rigidity and stability of top cover over a period and time after rough field use.Then no last round bolt hold open,rocking and locking mag instead of easy slide in with mag well,ergonomic issues,not the best design and placement of mag release and selector lever,violent reciprocating charging handle,not the best of trigger in terms of weight and smoothness,not modular or ambidextrous.Stock not in the line with the barrel axis,which would result in better control,follow on shot,mitigating recoil.Thin barrel,would prefer at least a medium contour barrel .No adjustable stock for length and height.An AK can make use of lot of improvements ,there is no excuse for manufacturing and using a stock,vanilla ak in 2020.
I am not saying that this rifle will be a disaster ,with reliability of the rifle(hopefully) and lethality of the round upto 300 (7.62x39mm)( practical accuracy) ,it has got the basics covered for our soldiers.However to manufacture a 90s design in 2020, that too,with most of its limitations retained ,does not make much sense to me.If you had to manufacture an ak then ,it had to be the latest iteration ak 15 or at least a evolved ak like 203.Truth be told,I am not so impressed with ak 203 too,they could have done a much better work than it.
It is saying like nothing wrong in it,as if
why opt for
ar 15
When you can have colt sp1
Why opt for galil ace
when you can have galil sar
Truth be told,if ak platform was so amazing why would all the modern ,big budget military opt for other designs,forget rest,even Poland,Serbia,Ukraine have recently abandoned their ak based design beryl,m70 in their new rifles,similarly Chinese could have easily produced a new gen ak,they even had good experience based of type 56 and type 81,however they opted for a modern design.
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It is not about ak vs ar,there are many other modern designs.When we
talk about the new gen rifles these are few things which we are
looking at,machined parts,monolithic upper,modular,flexibility in
attaching optics and other accessories,adjustable
stock,ambidextrous,common platform for different calibers etc all ,the
modern rifles seem to be following these fundamentals.I have a feeling
even Russia may abandon ak in next gen rifles,it is more of a prestige
issue for them ,than practicality.I have been following Russian
special forces and use of AR platform is more prevalent among
them,than one would think.
AS I have often said vulnerability of the ak top cover is one of the biggest limitation of ak platform,something which a fairly modernized
ak like galil ace also failed to address. Hence ,modern designs have moved away from ak design philosophy.
Now coming to ak 203 ,the Indian "ak 203" to be precise :
If we compare the rifle with stock AK 203,these are the changes made in Indian version :
1. Stock :
Instead of the new stock,which was adjustable in length and side folding ,the old side folder of ak 74m/103 is retained .
This stock is 4 positions adjustable in length,an important feature to
have when you have soldiers of varying built and height plus with
advent of body armor and tactical vest the varying adjustment as per
shooter comfort become more important.
Not only this stock was adjustable in length but also a straight line stock,even though not aligned to the axis of the bore.A straight line stock help in better control of the rifle,mitigating felt recoil .
The standard stock of AK 103 is not adjustable in length,means one size fit for all approach (which is not good) ,not only this it is also slanted ,this shape does offer natural shoulder grip and line of iron sight,however this design result in pivot at your shoulder and cause muzzle flip.More effort to control your rifle,slower follow on shots,more felt recoil.
This stock has a thicker rubber recoil pad,means more effective in mitigating(reducing) felt recoil,very useful for 7.62x39mm,and offer
better grip on the shoulder.
On contrary,this stock has a very thin profile butt pad.
2.Magazine :
talk about the new gen rifles these are few things which we are
looking at,machined parts,monolithic upper,modular,flexibility in
attaching optics and other accessories,adjustable
stock,ambidextrous,common platform for different calibers etc all ,the
modern rifles seem to be following these fundamentals.I have a feeling
even Russia may abandon ak in next gen rifles,it is more of a prestige
issue for them ,than practicality.I have been following Russian
special forces and use of AR platform is more prevalent among
them,than one would think.
AS I have often said vulnerability of the ak top cover is one of the biggest limitation of ak platform,something which a fairly modernized
ak like galil ace also failed to address. Hence ,modern designs have moved away from ak design philosophy.
Now coming to ak 203 ,the Indian "ak 203" to be precise :
If we compare the rifle with stock AK 203,these are the changes made in Indian version :
1. Stock :
Instead of the new stock,which was adjustable in length and side folding ,the old side folder of ak 74m/103 is retained .
This stock is 4 positions adjustable in length,an important feature to
have when you have soldiers of varying built and height plus with
advent of body armor and tactical vest the varying adjustment as per
shooter comfort become more important.
Not only this stock was adjustable in length but also a straight line stock,even though not aligned to the axis of the bore.A straight line stock help in better control of the rifle,mitigating felt recoil .
The standard stock of AK 103 is not adjustable in length,means one size fit for all approach (which is not good) ,not only this it is also slanted ,this shape does offer natural shoulder grip and line of iron sight,however this design result in pivot at your shoulder and cause muzzle flip.More effort to control your rifle,slower follow on shots,more felt recoil.
This stock has a thicker rubber recoil pad,means more effective in mitigating(reducing) felt recoil,very useful for 7.62x39mm,and offer
better grip on the shoulder.
On contrary,this stock has a very thin profile butt pad.
2.Magazine :
New AK 12/15 magazine also offered on AK 203 ,is a lightweight ,reinforced polymer magazine.It offer windows and round count along
the side of the magazine,helps to keep tab on the number of round left in the magazine.Not only this it has a illuminating indicator on
follower, as well as colored feeder.
Whereas the AK 103 mag is a simple opaque polymer type.No way to find the remaining rounds left.
3.Selector lever :
The AK 203/12 has a additional tab for ease of manipulating of the selector switch through index finger.
The regular AK 103 tab takes more effort and you will have to remove your hand from shooting position to manipulate it.
4. Hand guard
AK 203 hand guard has/option for rails at 12,9,3 and 6 position.Not only you could mount your ir at 12 ,but also other accessories as
required.
Our AK103/203 Hand guard has rail only at 3 and 6 ,thereby limiting the real estate and position of mounting accessories.
5. Cleaning rod :
In ak 203 three piece cleaning rod is tucked inside the stock.
In our AK 203 ,the traditional cleaning rod is mounted beneath the barrel.This present a bad aesthetic to the rifle,a clean barrel configuration is much preferred in 2020.
Will these changes dramatically affect the performance of the rifle,maybe not.Training,skill set and optics will always remain crucial ,however these improvements would surely enhance the comfort,handling,stance and form of the shooter.
Truth be told ,I was not even satisfied with AK 203,as I feel ,a much better job could/should have been done when improving ak 103.
If it was up to me ,here is what I would have done :
1 .Moved the front sight to the gas block,whereas rear sight at the back end of the top cover(like ak 12).
2. Would have modified the rear sight in such a way ,that we could switch between aperture and notch as per distance and wish.I would
have retained the leaf and ramp as it mimics the ballistic trajectory of 7.62x39mm round.
3.Would have opted for a mlok ,free float hand ,mid length hand guard extending up to the gas block of the rifle.Mlok ,gives you the
flexibility of mounting accessory,optics while still keeping the weight low,further it offer good ventilation allowing for quick heat
dissipation.No I don't know how effective it is in the real world ,but theory behind free float hand guard on ak is that ,since it is devoid
of any contact with the barrel,it gets less hot than a traditional hand guard.Another method to check the heat could be a large heat
shield ,like merc hand guard from Occam defense.
3.Enhanced selector lever.
4.Would certainly like to improve the stock trigger.
5.Enhanced mag release catch,something like done by kreb.
6. A new design stock ,which will be in line with the bore and will be adjustable in length,height and side folding. The stock would also
accommodate the cleaning rod
7.A new muzzle device ,maybe a combination of muzzle brake/flash hider ,along with a short suppressor ,that would last till the life of the
rifle barrel.
8.A medium contour barrel.
9. New AK 15 Magazine.
10. A fixed gas tube,like ak 15.
OFB would be better served ,by customizing the stock ak 203 themselves or by hiring outside experts ,such as Mark kreb to shape the final
configuration of ak ,before it could be mass produced.There is a better chance that we can outdo the Kalashnikov itself,in making the
best iteration of an ak.
The AK 203/12 has a additional tab for ease of manipulating of the selector switch through index finger.
The regular AK 103 tab takes more effort and you will have to remove your hand from shooting position to manipulate it.
4. Hand guard
AK 203 hand guard has/option for rails at 12,9,3 and 6 position.Not only you could mount your ir at 12 ,but also other accessories as
required.
Our AK103/203 Hand guard has rail only at 3 and 6 ,thereby limiting the real estate and position of mounting accessories.
5. Cleaning rod :
In ak 203 three piece cleaning rod is tucked inside the stock.
In our AK 203 ,the traditional cleaning rod is mounted beneath the barrel.This present a bad aesthetic to the rifle,a clean barrel configuration is much preferred in 2020.
Will these changes dramatically affect the performance of the rifle,maybe not.Training,skill set and optics will always remain crucial ,however these improvements would surely enhance the comfort,handling,stance and form of the shooter.
Truth be told ,I was not even satisfied with AK 203,as I feel ,a much better job could/should have been done when improving ak 103.
If it was up to me ,here is what I would have done :
1 .Moved the front sight to the gas block,whereas rear sight at the back end of the top cover(like ak 12).
2. Would have modified the rear sight in such a way ,that we could switch between aperture and notch as per distance and wish.I would
have retained the leaf and ramp as it mimics the ballistic trajectory of 7.62x39mm round.
3.Would have opted for a mlok ,free float hand ,mid length hand guard extending up to the gas block of the rifle.Mlok ,gives you the
flexibility of mounting accessory,optics while still keeping the weight low,further it offer good ventilation allowing for quick heat
dissipation.No I don't know how effective it is in the real world ,but theory behind free float hand guard on ak is that ,since it is devoid
of any contact with the barrel,it gets less hot than a traditional hand guard.Another method to check the heat could be a large heat
shield ,like merc hand guard from Occam defense.
3.Enhanced selector lever.
4.Would certainly like to improve the stock trigger.
5.Enhanced mag release catch,something like done by kreb.
6. A new design stock ,which will be in line with the bore and will be adjustable in length,height and side folding. The stock would also
accommodate the cleaning rod
7.A new muzzle device ,maybe a combination of muzzle brake/flash hider ,along with a short suppressor ,that would last till the life of the
rifle barrel.
8.A medium contour barrel.
9. New AK 15 Magazine.
10. A fixed gas tube,like ak 15.
OFB would be better served ,by customizing the stock ak 203 themselves or by hiring outside experts ,such as Mark kreb to shape the final
configuration of ak ,before it could be mass produced.There is a better chance that we can outdo the Kalashnikov itself,in making the
best iteration of an ak.
