Small Arms & Tactical Equipment

I can bet that this 338 LMG will be the Next Demand of our Army after 5 years

So why not start work right now

Right now our forces use Bren and INSAS LMG ie 7.62 X 51

This 338 LMG will Kill every terrorist till
1.5 KM , So it will be very useful both on LOC and for SF --- Paras
OFB's sniper uses the 7.62x51 ammo which has an effective range of 800m. Most snipers in the world using the same caliber including SSS Defence's counterpart has an effective range of 1000-1300m

Also, OFB's snipers use wooden infrastructure which makes is bulky. With the current incompetent lot at OFB's & DPSU's, there is no point procuring sub-par weapons. SSS Defence has already developed a .338 Lapua Magnum sniper and could easily develop an LMG on the same lines on par with some of the best western rifles out there
 
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With Russian Deals , what I have heard
Is that there are hidden and undeclared purchases of some weapons or systems
ie along with the declared ones

We cannot take that way.. Tomorrow if Congress did the same, will you agree with that?

If something things are done underground for country s benefit, it s a risk they take with out getting the name for it.

We also cannot assume they have done so.

For me it's the rifle that matters, u buy best gun .. Price comes next.

I am almost cursing the BJP now with AK 203, Igla S, Kamov helis and Nasam missile deal lining up.

All these we could have made ourselves.
 
No use brother , no ones gonna buy it instead please post AK 203 videos so we can cry together
AK-203 is a done deal for the army. Maybe, SSS defence could pitch it's rifles for the paramilitary and special forces. There were reports that their .338 LM Sniper was being tested by NSG
 
Final Contract for AK-203 Assault Rifle Set to Be Finalised Shortly - Top Indian Defence Official

Russian assault rifles will replace the country’s home-made and outdated INSAS rifle. The Indian Army has previously made several attempts to replace the rifle but failed.

India and Russia are set to sign the final commercial contract for the purchase of the AK-203 assault rifle soon with all price issues now finalised, according to an Indian Army official.

“Most of the contentious issues are resolved. We will decide on price bid very shortly,” the official who wished to remain unidentified told Sputnik on Thursday.
Indo-Russia Rifles Limited, established between the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), the Kalashnikov Concern and Rosoboronexport — the Russian state agency for military exports — will manufacture the 7.62×39 mm Russian weapon at the Korwa Ordnance Factory in Uttar Pradesh. Indian Prime Minister Narendra Modi inaugurated the facility last March.
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The official said the infantry division has identified a total requirement of 670,000 AK-203 rifles for the army including 100,000 imports while the rest will be manufactured at the Indian facility.

“There will be certain numbers which will come as semi knocked down kits and subsequently we will looking at developing weapons here in India both for the indigenous requirement within India as also with the capability to export them subsequently,” Major General J.S. Sandhu, chief of Infantry, Indian Army, said.
Sandhu said there is a transfer of technology incorporated in the deal and it is expected that a large part of the requirement will be fulfilled by manufacturing rifles in India.

Each rifle is expected to cost around $1,100 which includes the cost of technology transfer and of setting up the manufacturing unit.

Last March, Modi said the AK-203 rifles will help the country's security forces fight militants in counter-terror operations.

The AK-203 is the latest and most advanced version of the AK-47 rifle which will replace INSAS. Indian security personnel had often complained in the past of jamming, magazine cracking etc. at higher altitudes in the Himalayas.

Final Contract for AK-203 Assault Rifle Set to Be Finalised Shortly - Top Indian Defence Official
 
Hopefully, SSS Defence is able to make a sale to some foreign firm (preferbly a NATO country) just like how IA found out about Tonbo

Also, P72 rifles could be pitched to Special Forces, Paramilitary, State police spec ops & counter-terrorist units. Infact, someone on this thread stated it was being tested by NSG & IA. Even if IA decides to procure a few thousand units...should be a good starter
But the IA will not have a reason to order a few thousand if the AK deal comes through.

Like I said, it does not have a future in IA.
 
But the IA will not have a reason to order a few thousand if the AK deal comes through.

Like I said, it does not have a future in IA.
IA was going for foreign sights and scopes until they found out NATO units using Tonbo. Eventually, they went on to procure Tonbo's sights in decent numbers. Most recently, DRDO/TATA's WhAP was also found featuring Tonbo's DVE Photon. The same with MKU's helmets. Once a foreign entity, be it even a police or some sorta special intervention force procures a few...IA is more likely to get some as well (just typical desi mentality). Though in limited numbers, would still be a good boost for a defence start up

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AK-203 is a done deal for the army. Maybe, SSS defence could pitch it's rifles for the paramilitary and special forces. There were reports that their .338 LM Sniper was being tested by NSG
SSS Defence .338 Saber is going up against Sako TRG and Victrix Scorpio in the Army's .338 rifle competition.
 
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But the IA will not have a reason to order a few thousand if the AK deal comes through.

Like I said, it does not have a future in IA.
The total no of INSAS replacement requirements are close to 20 lakh. The current order is of 750,000. Now at $1100, Ak-203 is an extremely expensive rifle. So SSS Defence P-72 might have a chance to replace the rest 12,50,000.
Aside from the Army, P-72 would also be showcased to the Para SF, NSG. It has a better chance winning their competitions.
I sincerely hope some Middle Eastern, South American, Eastern European nation chooses the SSS P-72 as their standard issue rifle or orders the rifle in large nos.
Then only will the IA wake up from the slumber.
 
The total no of INSAS replacement requirements are close to 20 lakh. The current order is of 750,000. Now at $1100, Ak-203 is an extremely expensive rifle. So SSS Defence P-72 might have a chance to replace the rest 12,50,000.
Aside from the Army, P-72 would also be showcased to the Para SF, NSG. It has a better chance winning their competitions.
I sincerely hope some Middle Eastern, South American, Eastern European nation chooses the SSS P-72 as their standard issue rifle or orders the rifle in large nos.
Then only will the IA wake up from the slumber.
It would be better if we wait for the U.S 6.8mm to get inducted in the US military and but the sig spear and license manufacture it. And at the same time focus on removing 9mm from carbine roles and replacing it with car 816 or any other 5.56 carbine and 7.62x51 gun for battle rifle and dmr roles. 7.62x39 is an outdated round doesn't have the range and the newer 5.56 rounds are getting similar penetration values as it. 6.8 will be the ideal round for an assault rifle . Yes this is a logistics nightmare but when has IA cared for logistics or uniformity. It's better we have more options with better lethality than having underperforming rounds like 9x19 and 7.62x39...
 
What MOD lacks is future foresight, if they made a better choice today, they could have saved alot of money in the future...if the deal goes through, expect the army to spend money later on for upgrades or even complete replacement. I still think its not that bad for the average joe who isnt going to see combat anytime soon, but our special ops guys and the soldiers fighting on the front deserve better.

I think the sig is going to win, the us army is not going to buy a bullpup and the textron is very complicated internally.


I am not saying that it is a bad choice because the Rifle is bad,but it is the bad choice because selecting a relatively modern platform ,would result in more adaptability,flexibility as per advent in technology in small arms,accessories and optics.A modern platform would have been more versatile in terms of keeping up with the need of future soldier.When we are talking about selecting rifle,we are not talking about today but around next 30 years.

Regarding combat,war is not something which you can schedule,unless you are going to start it.

I agree,however never say never,the bull pup design does offer some advantage over the conventional one,with increase in firefight in built up areas and most of the army being mechanized it does present a strong case for itself .Tex-tron design does seem complicated,however it does offer certain feature above its competitors,further we are yet to see its reliability and disassembly and assembly.If it is reliable and the maintenance is easy it might have some chance,as optics and sensors are going to be the future in firefights,and here it does score high.


^Not a free float.

Yes,it is not free float in true sense,as anything with a gas block cannot be free floated even if it is gas impingement like m4. However ,the term free float in gun industry is being generally used to describe a hand guard which is devoid of any direct contact with the barrel.The reason being to avoid any external pressure on the hand guard acting upon the barrel.The Hand guard of the ak 12/15 follow the same principle by locking at the receiver in the rear and interlocking at the front ,thereby avoiding any contact with the rifle barrel.The theory behind this being that any accessory ,sling mounted on the hand guard will not affect the barrel,similarly your grip or when you place the rifle on a support platform will not interfere with the barrel.Now,how much benefit it does bring in term of accuracy,I cannot say without conducting elaborate testing ,however this norm is being followed by almost every new rifle design,so it has to have some merit to it.

BTW We had the exact argument earlier also,and I have replied the same :
-Yes ,you are correct .If we go into technicality ,an AK with piston and gas block cannot have free floated barrel in its true sense,same goes with the AR platform or any other rifle with gas block or piston.


When we talk about free floated barrel /hand guard on ak ,it basically means that the hand guard will be devoid of any contact with the barrel.I had used the word "harmonics" in general way not in its technical term,by that I meant that any outside pressure on the hand guard like bi pod,sling,resting the hand guard on a support will not affect the barrel.

"Free floating " be it on ar or ak does not aim to arrest or reduce the vibrations on the barrel ,but to let the barrel vibrate freely in harmony,without any outside pressure point through the hand guard acting on it.Yes,free floating is more effective on heavier barrel but that does not mean it has no effect on thinner barrels.The main purpose is to avoid any outside pressure points working on the barrel..

So when we talk about free floating on AK ,it is basically to avoid any outside pressure on the hand guard acting on the barrel,which could lead to change in point of impact.As far as AK 15 is concerned ,the person who is involved in testing has reported improvement in accuracy due to free floating barrel/hand guard on it.



There is nothing wrong with AKM's and its variants.

AKM and its variant,AK 103 in this case are great rifles,especially when it comes to reliability and simplicity.Moreover would still rate AK 203 as one of the best gun in 7.62x39mm. However it would be factually incorrect to say that there is nothing wrong with AKM and it's variant,I don't think there is any single rifle devoid of any issues,because then it would be "perfect",and I am yet to see such rifle.


My biggest issue with akm family of rifles is the lack of stability of top cover and difficulty to return to zero after disassembly.Even though the Russian and other in the industry have tried to deal with it through hinged and reinforced heavy dust cover ,however how it will hold few years down the line with high use,abuse by military is yet to be seen.Further a reflex sight would do fine in an ak,but will it be same for more sensitive optics,scopes I am doubtful. This is one of the biggest drawback of ak and other rifles based on its design eg Galil ace.

I have repeatedly said ak 103/ak 203 are great rifles ,however these are not the rifles I would wish for TOT in 2020.I would rather wish for a TOT of a more stable,modular and flexible design ,which will not only help me to derive a whole new range of small arms from it,but also help in evolving the rifle with time.The AK with ak 12 has reached the pinnacle of its evolution,there is nothing you could do more with the AK design.However the doubts on the stability of top cover,return to zero are still there ,only time will tell how much was the new design is successful in dealing with these issues.

On the other hand the Russian have already dumped the SVD ,and AK74u design and moved on to a more modern design.Does this mean that these were bad platforms,absolutely not! both of them have rich legacy,however you need to evolve,for this you will have to take risk,try new things,come out of your comfort zone.
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Even the Russians have moved from humble AK in 1949 to AKM,ak 74,ak 74m to ak 12 .

Similarly one could argue what is wrong with m16 and its derivatives,but still the Americans are looking at new rifles,and the three shortlisted rifles are different design than the original m16.


Nothing generally wrong with these rifles ,but still they were changed for a more modular,modern design.

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I don't think AK 103 is a big upgrade over insas other than the reliability.This does not mean AK 103 is a bad rifle,infact a very good rifle in its own right,but imo we should have gone with a more modern design.With the TOT ,we will learn to make good ak,but will this knowledge help us in design,development and manufacturing of other modern small arms is doubtful.So you buy TOT of a design which is at the end of its life cycle that too at a bloated price of $1100,and then you wonder what is wrong.If we have to opt for a legacy design ,then we could have bought the TOT of Finnish RK 62 or Czech vz 58 at a much lower price,both of them accomplished rifles in their own sense. Btw by watering down the already basic ak 203 rifle,Indian government has shown its socialist mindset of cutting corners to save penny.

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SSS p72 is clearly superior to AK 103 in its design,features,modularity and ergonomics. It is a more future proof rifle,only thing remain to be seen is its accuracy,reliability,and metallurgy. However these are not something which cannot be worked upon,improved and fine tuned.I think DRDO,army,SSS defence could have worked upon this rifle,to bring it to serviceable standard ,that too "if" this rifle was not already at that standard.Which we would have known if it was given a fair trial against AK 203.

Why SSS defence?it will boost startups in defence manufacturing,it will help SSS defence compete at the global level,ALL the IP will be owned by Indian manufacturer,who could alter the rifle as per wish of the forces,It will boost Indian R&d in small arms,Help to create jobs,money earned will be directed towards the growth of Indian defence manufacturing,it will be way more economical that the ak 203,it will be made in India in true sense.They have taken the risk,and have shown potential in form of their rifles,Now it is the duty of the government to walk the talk and back this startup.If they are worried for the jobs of the inept OFB,then OFB could produce these rifles under licensee for CAPF and Police.Win win for both OFB and SSS defence ,most importantly brand made in India .
 
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AK-203 is a done deal for the army. Maybe, SSS defence could pitch it's rifles for the paramilitary and special forces. There were reports that their .338 LM Sniper was being tested by NSG
They said in an interview, their rifles are being tested right now by the Para sf and the NSG
 
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It would be better if we wait for the U.S 6.8mm to get inducted in the US military and but the sig spear and license manufacture it. And at the same time focus on removing 9mm from carbine roles and replacing it with car 816 or any other 5.56 carbine and 7.62x51 gun for battle rifle and dmr roles. 7.62x39 is an outdated round doesn't have the range and the newer 5.56 rounds are getting similar penetration values as it. 6.8 will be the ideal round for an assault rifle . Yes this is a logistics nightmare but when has IA cared for logistics or uniformity. It's better we have more options with better lethality than having underperforming rounds like 9x19 and 7.62x39...
i wouldnt call 7.62x39 outdated...it has its place, like the gign adopted cz bren2s in 7.62x39
 

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They said in an interview, thier rifles are being tested right now by the Para sf and the NSG
However, these procurements would not be as big as the Army's procurement.
On the other hand, P-72 can become standard issue in NSG as their procurement process is way better than the Army thanks to the NSG coming under MHA.
The Army, Para, NSG is conducting trials of the SSS .338 Saber.
In the Army trials, it is up against Sako TRG 42 and Victrix Scorpio TGT, it would a tough fight as a new company is up against two established companies.
But SSS has two aces up its sleeve, one is the price and the other is that they are offering locally made .338 ammunition which I don't think the other two will offer.
 
SSS Defence .338 Saber is going up against Sako TRG and Victrix Scorpio in the Army's .338 rifle competition.
Weren't the Victrix Scorpio procured in limited numbers when IA placed an order for the Barrett M95?

I sincerely hope some Middle Eastern, South American, Eastern European nation chooses the SSS P-72 as their standard issue rifle or orders the rifle in large nos.
Middle Easterners are most likely to procure from Caracal or some American rifle. Infact, Caracal rifles were also designed and developed by consultants from western firms

Brazil is the largest defence manufacturer with decent presence in small arms industry. IMBEL is their largest firm in that regard and will give a tough competition for external vendors. Also, other South American countries aren't economically strong enough to replace their entire lot of standard issue rifles

Eastern European nations have ton rifle manufacturers and are most likely to choose something of their own or of a neighboring country for mutually beneficial trade deals.

What SSS should aim for is getting contracts is limited numbers. Even if they're able to pitch in these rifles to some police SWAT teams or counter-terror groups or some specialized NATO units is all we need to get IA's attention while simultaneously pitching these to SF's
 
It would be better if we wait for the U.S 6.8mm to get inducted in the US military and but the sig spear and license manufacture it. And at the same time focus on removing 9mm from carbine roles and replacing it with car 816 or any other 5.56 carbine and 7.62x51 gun for battle rifle and dmr roles. 7.62x39 is an outdated round doesn't have the range and the newer 5.56 rounds are getting similar penetration values as it. 6.8 will be the ideal round for an assault rifle . Yes this is a logistics nightmare but when has IA cared for logistics or uniformity. It's better we have more options with better lethality than having underperforming rounds like 9x19 and 7.62x39...
Why do you want the replacement to be a foreign rifle all over again? If we're not able to have an indigenous alternative for something as basic as an Assault rifle, carbine, scopes, helments and other gear...our local defence industry would never take off.

Caracal 816 is for sure designed by western consultants cuz Arab's don't know jack shiite about rifle or any defence design/manufacturing in that regard. Additionally, Sig's rifles are way too expensive to start with for going in significant numbers. Their civilian versions are among the most expensive in the market currently and they wouldn't think twice to blatantly rip us off in pricing terms. Despite local manufacturing, even a crappy looking AK-203 costs north of $1100