Small Arms & Tactical Equipment
- Thread starter Parthu
- Start date
That's pretty normal. It's the vendor's job to provide a better model than what has been asked for.
Good observation,but I feel instead of modernizing pump action shotgun ,we should invest in production of a modern semi automatic shotgun.The photo of the car 816 you have posted is meant for US civilian market.We will be getting this military version of CAR 816 most probably :
There are two type of customer(MOD Delegation in this case)
One is the smart ,informed type who knows what he want ,do his research beforehand about the best products and deal available in the market .Once armed with the knowledge, he know exactly what he want,at what price he want ,which enable him to drive a hard bargain for what he want.
Then there are others, who only have a faint idea of what they want,they are easily manipulated by the shopkeeper(Kalashnikov in this case ) .In such case ,the shopkeeper sell them exactly what he want to sell them,at the price he want to sell them while convincing the customer that it is "the" product they need,at the "price" they want .
By up selling the AK 203 the Kalashnikov has done exactly what was expected from them,by not demanding the ak 203 and ak 15 from the beginning and insisting on ak 103 the MOD delegation has only displayed their ignorance.The moot point being they have been "sold" ak 203 ,instead of them "buying" the ak 203.
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After this SIG 716 deal everybody is hailing Modi.I am unable to understand why!because for me this deal is nothing but clear indication of the inefficiency of the Modi government.The deal of 7.62x51mm rifles was in works much before the Modi government ,they had full 5 years to take this deal to its logical end,but it is far from over!instead this government is creating a new mess in the name of FTP.
Everybody knows that our procurement process sucks,if this government was really bothered they would have refined it.Identify the problems and deal with them accordingly.Have they done this!No.
It is a open secret OFB sucks,the government had adequate time to either reform OFB-bring new leadership,pump in money for R&D ,invest in new plants,training,work culture.Or, get rid of them .Those who says it can't be done because of the voter base of OFB ,they could have adjusted the present work force in other departments,and stop hiring further.
Moot point being,if this government was really serious about developing small arms ,much could have been done.
I will deal with OFB and small arms development in India in a separate post.
Let's come to the main point ,the mess that is being created in name of FTP.
I think in the name of FTP we are creating new problem in the name of solution.First of all ,a well planned procurement process should not take more than two years-including trials,and submitting of the deals and finalizing the agreement .So where is the need for this emergency procurement?They should bring the RFI for complete TOT and sign the deal within next 2 years.All the tenders can go on simultaneously,or better a all can be packed into one mega tender(7.62x51mm ,7.62x39mm,5.56x45mm).
The mess that is Indian small arm procurement:
India has a "huge" requirement for modern small arms in all category .If you take into account CAPF,police force,Reserves the number runs into millions and millions,without even considering the opportunity to export to nations such as Bhutan,Nepal ,Myanmar,Oman and African nations.This provide us a great opportunity of economics of scale.Common sense dictate that we should have merged all the caliber requirement into one deal and should have drove a hard bargain for a very good deal on a good rifle family selected by our army.
A single vendor will not only provide us a economically favorable deal,but also provide uniformity and familiarity of platform across different calibers,resulting in ease of training ,maintenance and spares.
For eg let the vendor be FN.
7.62X51mm
5.56x45mm
7.62x39mm
Now come to 7.62x51mm
We are purchasing SIG 716g2 for $990 dollar(70,275) ,quite a good price ,I doubt even OFB would have not been able to beat that price with their R2 rifle(remember they are selling JVPC for $1056.56 /Rs 75,000) .One can imagine how good a deal we could have got -if we have sweeten the deal by including 5.56x45mm ,complete TOT and setting up of a new plant for rifle production in India.
We all know 72000 rifles will not suffice ,so eventually there will be a new tender for unspecified number of 7.62x51mm rifles under make in India.Now If SIG 716 pass all the trials and offers a good deal and is eventually selected in the new tender,then everything is fine ,but if this doesn't happen?It fail in the trials ,some other rifle win the trial,offer a better deal and is eventually selected.What will happen to these 72000 rifles in that case.Are you telling me some of the infantry will have sig 716 and rest the some other 7.62x51mm rifles.Does it make sense!
5.56x45mm
Everything ABOUT THE 7.62X51mm rifles apply to the carbine tender also.After caracal 816 for 94000 carbines,what if some other carbine win the tender of 3,50,000 carbines?
Will we have 2 different 7.62x51mm rifle ,two differnt 5.56x45mm carbine in our Army. Wouldn't it mess the training ,the standardization. Is this not a royal *censored* up,if not then what is!
Further I question the requirement for 5.56x45mm in such large numbers.Carbine is meant for CQB ,and IMHO 7.62x39mm is superior to 5.56x45mm in CQB .So why don't we get carbines in 7.62x39mm .This will help standardization of ammo with 7.62x51mm and 7.62x39mm in the whole army.
7.62x39mm
Again what's with the talks of 6,50000 AK 203 being produced by OFB and at the same time a new tender being issued for 7.62x39mm rifles to the private companies .Whom is the government trying to fool?or are they really trying to get two different platforms of 7.62x39mm.It would have still made some sense if the OFB or the new tender was only reserved for the police force or CAPF ,but all of this lunacy is being done in the name of Indian army.
What the *censored* is going on folks,if this is not *censored*ed up,then what is!!!
Attachments
This particular photo appears to be of the original 816, not the newer 816A2 (which is what I think we're getting). Unless the A2 model was meant specifically for the civilian market rather than being a replacement standard across civilian & military/LE models.
I have noticed that while Caracal's US website markets the A2, the Caracal International LLC's original UAE website (caracal.ae) only shows the original 816 (like the pic you posted above). So its only the baseline 816 that competed in India?
+++
That aside, another little tid-bit I've been seeing is that while the 12'o clock interface on both the SIG716 and CAR816 is a standard Picatinny rail, the 3, 6 and 9'o clock interfaces on the 716G2 use the KeyMod interface system, while the same positions on the 816A2 use the M-LOK system (designed by Magpul). In both cases, this is a change that only occurs in the 2nd gen examples of these guns. For example, the 716G1 as well as the original 816 both had only P-rails in all 4 positions (evident in the pic you posted above).
I'd like for the Army to only use a single, standardized type of interface system across all weapons (frontline, carbine, regular infantry etc.). This would negate the need to buy separate adapters (which would only increase weight) in case Army fails to acquire or distribute sufficient numbers of accessories (like grips, and in future maybe lasers, flashlights etc.) meant for each type of interface.
P-rail adapter for an M-LOK handguard
EDIT: Case in point -
The AK-203 and the orginal 816 would share a complete P-rail based system, but the 716G2 would be the outlier with its KeyMod interface. Hope they get all the separate accessories they'll need.
The same level of commonality would have also been possible with the IWI ACE platform:
ACE 23 -- 5.56x45
ACE 32 -- 7.62x39
ACE 52 -- 7.62x51
I had proposed the same way back when I heard about this split-order for the first time on this same thread, over an year ago:
Small Arms & Tactical Equipment
Too bad Army/MoD don't see the merit in such an approach, and must instead insist on everything being a separate tender.
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You are talking about the army, not the MoD. The 203 finished basic development only in 2017, let alone field trials, so it wasn't even in circulation for the army to ask for it. Now that the 203 has become available, the army is switching sights to the new one.
No such thing. The requirement for 7.62x51mm came up only in 2016 or so, after the multi-calibre tender failed, which was cancelled under Parrikar. The FTP process for the SIG 716 started in January 2017. So this has been going on for quite sometime now.
Modi is being hailed because he's put national security first, politics second. This "new mess" is the reason why the army is getting rifles, carbines, LMGs and snipers long before they would normally be. Any new tender under the new process would be a 4-year affair after all.
This particular photo appears to be of the original 816, not the newer 816A2 (which is what I think we're getting). Unless the A2 model was meant specifically for the civilian market rather than being a replacement standard across civilian & military/LE models.
I have noticed that while Caracal's US website markets the A2, the Caracal International LLC's original UAE website (caracal.ae) only shows the original 816 (like the pic you posted above). So its only the baseline 816 that competed in India?
+++
That aside, another little tid-bit I've been seeing is that while the 12'o clock interface on both the SIG716 and CAR816 is a standard Picatinny rail, the 3, 6 and 9'o clock interfaces on the 716G2 use the KeyMod interface system, while the same positions on the 816A2 use the M-LOK system (designed by Magpul). In both cases, this is a change that only occurs in the 2nd gen examples of these guns. For example, the 716G1 as well as the original 816 both had only P-rails in all 4 positions (evident in the pic you posted above).
I'd like for the Army to only use a single, standardized type of interface system across all weapons (frontline, carbine, regular infantry etc.). This would negate the need to buy separate adapters (which would only increase weight) in case Army fails to acquire or distribute sufficient numbers of accessories (like grips, and in future maybe lasers, flashlights etc.) meant for each type of interface.
P-rail adapter for an M-LOK handguard
EDIT: Case in point -
View attachment 4192
The AK-203 and the orginal 816 would share a complete P-rail based system, but the 716G2 would be the outlier with its KeyMod interface. Hope they get all the separate accessories they'll need.
The same level of commonality would have also been possible with the IWI ACE platform:
ACE 23 -- 5.56x45
ACE 32 -- 7.62x39
ACE 52 -- 7.62x51
I had proposed the same way back when I heard about this split-order for the first time on this same thread, over an year ago:
Small Arms & Tactical Equipment
Too bad Army/MoD don't see the merit in such an approach, and must instead insist on everything being a separate tender.
Yeah I thought with Punj Lyold IWI JV , Galil is a given.
Why aren't we supporting quality private sector s who are willing ?
This particular photo appears to be of the original 816, not the newer 816A2 (which is what I think we're getting). Unless the A2 model was meant specifically for the civilian market rather than being a replacement standard across civilian & military/LE models.
I have noticed that while Caracal's US website markets the A2, the Caracal International LLC's original UAE website (caracal.ae) only shows the original 816 (like the pic you posted above). So its only the baseline 816 that competed in India?
+++
That aside, another little tid-bit I've been seeing is that while the 12'o clock interface on both the SIG716 and CAR816 is a standard Picatinny rail, the 3, 6 and 9'o clock interfaces on the 716G2 use the KeyMod interface system, while the same positions on the 816A2 use the M-LOK system (designed by Magpul). In both cases, this is a change that only occurs in the 2nd gen examples of these guns. For example, the 716G1 as well as the original 816 both had only P-rails in all 4 positions (evident in the pic you posted above).
I'd like for the Army to only use a single, standardized type of interface system across all weapons (frontline, carbine, regular infantry etc.). This would negate the need to buy separate adapters (which would only increase weight) in case Army fails to acquire or distribute sufficient numbers of accessories (like grips, and in future maybe lasers, flashlights etc.) meant for each type of interface.
P-rail adapter for an M-LOK handguard
EDIT: Case in point -
View attachment 4192
The AK-203 and the orginal 816 would share a complete P-rail based system, but the 716G2 would be the outlier with its KeyMod interface. Hope they get all the separate accessories they'll need.
The same level of commonality would have also been possible with the IWI ACE platform:
ACE 23 -- 5.56x45
ACE 32 -- 7.62x39
ACE 52 -- 7.62x51
I had proposed the same way back when I heard about this split-order for the first time on this same thread, over an year ago:
Small Arms & Tactical Equipment
Too bad Army/MoD don't see the merit in such an approach, and must instead insist on everything being a separate tender.
Just for the benefit of other members:
This is 1913 quad rail handgurad on Caracal 816.It is the most widely used military standard handguard on AR type rifles.As you can see ,the handguard is covered with 1913 picatinny rails from all side,this give you the flexibility to mount as many accessory ,as you want,anywhere you want.This type of handguard is durable,and provide good stability to the accessories mounted on it.But the major downside is ,it add lot of weight to the rifle,since it is made up of metal.People also have problem in gripping the rifle,as the rails tend to scratch the hand ,although this can be mitigated by using rail covers.
This is a M-lock handguard on carcal 816a2 .Solution to the quad rail was offered in form of m-lock handguard originally developed by Magpul for its Masada rifle.Here many rectangular slots are offered throughout the hanguard,where you can directly mount the accessory meant for it,or you can place small rails section on these slots ,wherever you want and mount your accessories there.This allow you to mount your accessory wherever you want throughout the handguard.Such handguard is more comfortable to grip.The M-lock mainly comes in polymer which makes it lightweight,even though it is also available in metal.
The way to identify the M-lock is by the rectangular slots cut out throughout the handguard.The accessory or section rail meant for it have rectangular lugs and T- shaped nut along with it.The method of mounting these accessory or section rail on mlock is by placing the lug inside the slot ,wherever you want to mount ,After the lug is placed inside the slot,you make sure the T-Shape nut is clamped down on the hand guard,once it is clamped down,you screw the nut tight and lock the accessory or rail on the handguard. The lugs placed inside the slots are recoil resistant ,which make sure accessory is stable during firing .
Visit this link to see a demo of it :
Keymod vs. M-Lok AR Rail Standard Comparison
SOCOM has adopted these handguard ,due to its light weight ,flexibility of mounting optics,comfortable grip and reliability.This is the in trend handguard now days,but is also expensive.
The sig 716g2 patrol has Keymod handguard.It is similar to M-lock offering modular rail mounting options.As the name suggest the keymod will have slots similar to keyholes on both the sides,whereas a picatinny rail on top.You can mount accessory directly on these slots or can mount a section rail on it and then mount the accessory over it.The keymod handguard has many cut out through out the handguard ,this is done to shave as much weight from the handguard as possible without compromising the structural integrity of the handguard,there is substantial reduction of weight from the handguard because of this.Keymod is mostly available in form of metal handguards,however it does come in polymer also.
The accessory and section rail meant for keymod come with a shoe shaped nut and a circular raised lug.You have to place the lug inside the wider rounded section of the slot and then slide it forward toward the narrower section of the slot,which make the lug clamped into the slot .Then you have to ensure that the shoe shaped nut is also clamped into the other end of the same slot and then tighten the screw, which will lock the accessory or rail in place on the handguard.
Both rail system are good,but usually M-lock is rated better than the keymod.
Regarding army using a single, standardized type of interface system across all weapons ,I agree .As far as I know army can demand certain customization to the rifle,as per their preference,I don't remember correctly,but army may have asked for certain customization from CARACAL.For example army can demand the type of the stock,magazine and handguard as per their preference.
Like 25 round mag for SIG 716g2 patrol with window for viewing rounds.
Or transparent magazine for Caracal 816.
I am not aware of the final configuration in which CAR 816 will come to India,but as you can see even the CARACAL 817 which was offered to the army had quad rail handguard,as can be seen this photo of CAR 817 from defexpo :
I am sure even CAR 816 would have been offered with 1913 quad rail handguard ,to keep the cost low.
Even if you remove the 7.62x39mm ,the 5.5x45mm and 7.62x51mm platform are available almost throughout all the manufacturers.I believe best bet for us would have been-
1. 7.6X51mm battle rifles and 7.62x51mm DMR from a single manufacturer ,with TOT and manufacturing done by a Indian private company in partnership with that manufacturer ,and a clause of setting up a R&D center in India,as well production and sourcing of all the raw materials locally including barrels.Apart from the rifles ,give this company the permission to do r&d and develop complete range of small arms eg sniper rifles,lmg,mortar,RCL etc and allow them to market and export all this throughout the world.(For whole Army,Navy,air force,BSF,ITBP) (AK 15K as carbine)
I don't believe in the theory of two different rifle platform for army.Just see the difference between cost of AK 103 (50000) and SIG 716 (70,275) ,a mere 20,275 .For extra 20,275 you get more accurate,powerful,modular,ergonomic rifle.This when we are not even considering the price for AK 203 which will nullify the gap.
If You have to save money ,save it on optics.Issue high end optics to front line troops and cheap reflex sight to other troops.At present we are being penny wise, pound foolish.Due to our screwed analogy of saving money ,we are missing the economics of scale and standardization ,which will result in low cost support and maintenance in long term.
2. 7.62x39mm AK 15 for SSB,CRPF and AK 15k as carbine replacement manufactured by a private company in collaboration with Kalashnikov. AK 103 for Police manufactured by the OFB in collaboration with Kalashiknov,similar clause of r&d and Localisation of production .
9mm pistol tender given to Jericho ,to be produced at IWI -punj lyyod plant.
Everybody happy!Private companies get enough order to kick start manufacturing of small arms in different plants inside the country.OFB happy as it gets workload .Multiple small arms R&d center inside the country.Different forces can simultaneously switch to new rifles,without any time constraint or supply problems.
When I said MOD delegation ,it included army men along with MOD officals.Since you only insist on army ,let's see who is the authority here :
The delegation of India’s Ministry of Defense (MoD), led by Mr. Apurva Chandra, Director General Acquisition of the Ministry of Defense of India, visited the industrial site of Izhevsk-based Kalashnikov Group, Rostec's member.
India's MoD Delegation Visited Kalashnikov Group | Rosoboronexport
As far as we know, this suits the Ministry of Defense.
Владимир Дмитриев: рынок стрелкового оружия США для нас сейчас закрыт
It is a well known fact that unlike most of the other countries,in India defence forces have been subverted over the years,and the main power is yielded by the MOD.This does not mean I am absolving army,but you should know in India MOD is the ultimate authority in matter related to defence.To give you an example Army may finalize a rifle but MOD can go out and buy some another rifle and Army can do shit about it.Army can demand AK 15,but ultimate authority whether it will be AK 15 or AK 103 lies with the MOD.Does "spike" ring a bell,even in case of insas ,army was not happy ,it had selected two different rifles but MOD shove down the insas over the Army.
Regarding availability of AK 203-
Kalashnikov Concern Releases New AK Upgrade Kit ,Right now, this kit is available for the military market only. In fact, some Russian military units already use it.
Kalashnikov Concern Releases New AK Upgrade Kit -
Article date - May 29, 2017
Regarding its development -
The history of the development of these rifles started back in 2009. By 2011, for unknown reasons, the development was halted and later resumed in 2015. During the ARMY-2017 arms exhibition, the rifles were displayed bearing the 100-series of model designations with the addition of the letter “M” AK-101M, AK-102M .
INDIA'S MOD DELEGATION VISITED KALASHNIKOV GROUP
India's MoD Delegation Visited Kalashnikov Group | Rosoboronexport
Article date - 25.04.2018
Time period between When AK 103M was displayed to the world and when MOD delegation visited Kalashnikov facility 29.5.2017- 25.4.2018 = 11 month 27 days,enough days for MOD to be aware about it.
Please note that AK 103m was later designated AK 203.
"- Literally in the last days of 2018, our specialists once again went to Delhi for negotiations.- In the process of negotiations, we explained that over the past 50 years, the Kalashnikov assault rifle, to put it mildly, has changed, we also have new modifications, more interesting, and, most likely, we will come to the conclusion that we will change the product that has now been put into their troops. This will not be the AK of the 100th series, it will be similar to the AK-203, that is, a much more technically advanced product."
Владимир Дмитриев: рынок стрелкового оружия США для нас сейчас закрыт
So by the end of 2018 Indian MOD was still stuck at AK 103,meanwhile other nation were going ahead with AK 12 and AK 15.
1 Artsrun Hovhannisyan, the press secretary of the Ministry of Defence of Armenia, has published on his social media pages a post announcing about a contract signed between the Kalashnikov Concern and an Armenian company called Royalsys Engineering Ltd concerning the licensed manufacturing of AK-12 and AK-15 rifles in Armenia.
Armenia to Start Licensed Manufacturing of AK-12 and AK-15 Rifles - Overt Defense
Date : August 26, 2018
2 New Russian Kalashnikov AK-12 spotted in Qatar at the National Day Parade :
New Russian Kalashnikov AK-12 spotted in Qatar at the National Day Parade -
Date : December 27, 2018
I admit my mistake .Yes, I was wrong in saying 762x51mm ,I apologize.The mciws tender was scrapped around July 1, 2015 ,but it is a fact ,that rifle procurement was already on when this government came into place.
RFI issued for 7.62x51mm rifles to replace 5.56x45mm insas.Date -Sep 28, 2016(enough time for Modi to take it to its logical end)
Once again, Army starts global hunt for a new-generation assault rifle - Times of India
Yes, national security "first" over poltics:
Army chief General Bipin Rawat had earlier publicly declared that his entire 12-lakh strong force could not be equipped with top-notch rifles and other weapons due to budgetary constraints.The Army will initially accept weapon systems with “lower GSQRs” to give a boost to the local industry.
Army starts process to acquire 6.5L assault rifles under 'Make in India' - Times of India
Meanwhile :
Statue of Unity: Rs 2,989 crore
Chhatrapati Shivaji’s memorial statue: Rs 3643.78 crore
coming soon Lord Ram statue.
So, in the name of OFB and the so called "budget constraints" , you screw the procurement plan,all standardization,training,logistics,GSQR can go to hell.Force the 7.62x39mm AK over the requirement of 7.6x51mm rifle .
If the things were not already bad enough ,you go ahead and buy 72000 7.62x51mm rifles and 94000 5.56x45 carbines,and tout this as a masterstroke! My friend you missed the trees for the forest.We are talking about strategic shift in small arms not buying tomatos ,buy a dozen here,buy 2 dozen there.Army has to form new training ,maintenance,logistic supply etc with the new rifle.That's why it is called a standard issue rifle in army,you have to establish a "standard" for everything related to it ,this is not special forces my friend.
Do you think 72000 rifle will suffice for our front line troops,I am not even talking about reserves,new strike force that might be raised in the near future.Even if we take into account the screwed logic of "cheaper rifle" ,A 7.62x51mm ar10 with hammer forged , nitride coated free floating barrel ,modular safety and keymod handguard ,weighing 4.3kg at Rs 70,275 offer more value for your money at a marginal hike of 20000 over an AK 103 at 50,000 or not?
Our army wanted to shift 7.62x51mm as their mainstay weapon but this government forced them to make 7.62x39mm as their prime caliber.
You are talking as if someone else was in government during the last four years,that they were forced to go for "emergency" procurement.This is not called efficient decision making, but knee jerk reaction without a thought about the long term consequences.We are making strategic shift of small arms ,one that would be relevant for next 25-35 years and unfortunately this government has messed all of it.
You talk about 4 years for a tender.What do you want to in these 4 years!! One year is enough for trials,one year for negotiation and final contract signing ,what do you want to do with the other 2 years?Just for your reference :
New Zealand Army new rifle
RFP closed by 12 November 2014
New rifle selected by August 18, 2015
New rifle seen with soldiers by December 10, 2015
Time taken from RFP to Rifle selection = 9 months
New Zealand Army Selects LMT To Replace Steyr AUG -
New Zealand Defence Force Releases Sneak Peak At New Carbine -
Estonian army new rifle
RFP closed bY August 2017
New rifle selcted by December 5, 2018
Time taken from RFP to Rifle selection = 16month ,1 year 4 month
Estonian Rifle Trials: SIG, H&K & LMT Rifles In Running -
BREAKING: Lewis Machine & Tool Rifles Win Estonian Rifle Trials -
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Make in India is taking off. Prime Minister Narendra Modi is likely to inaugurate a new factory in Korwa, near Amethi, in Uttar Pradesh, on February 28 for the manufacture of Russian designed AK-47/203 rifles in India.
The plant will initially manufacture 7.47 lakh rifles for the Armed forces and then, for the Central police forces. Eventually, perhaps 2 million (or 20 lakh) rifles will be manufactured .
PM Narendra Modi might soon inaugurate Russian AK-47/203 rifle manufacturing factory in Uttar Pradesh
Who said we are moving from 5.56x45mm to 7.62x51mm ,we have clearly moved to 7.62x39mm in numbers
.Also will a single factory of OFB suffice for such a large scale production as BSF,itbp,SSB,CRPF,Police need new rifles apart from army.Will they have to wait for years for their turn 
.We could have made SIG 716 for same cost in numbers
.The new plant and machinery will only be beneficial when you improve the leadership,work culture,ethics and quality control at OFB otherwise they will happily screw AK 203 .Then people will complain about Russian weapons here.
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AK 203 which OFB is going to produce
AK-203 with Russian Red Dot PO1x20 PM and GP-34 UGBL
AK-203 with Russian Red Dot PO1x20 PM and GP-34 UGBL
AK 308
AK 15
AK 15 with Russian 1PN93-2 AK night sight.
with Aimpoint Micro T2
Old photo of OFB R2 rifle.
From left to right : Insas rifle ,Ishapore 1A1/SLR,Ishapore 2A1 or Rifle No 1 Mk III* also known as SMLE Mk III* ,Arsenal 7.62x39mm AR-M1(representing AK platform)
This is a special photo as it represent all the rifle platforms ,which have played a part in the life of Indian army Infantryman at some point of time,since our Independence.Without magazine it is hard to identify the rifle as Ishapore 2A1 or Rifle No 1 Mk III* ,nonetheless both were used by the Indian army.
SLR 1c
From 1:38 to 1:56 you can watch the Trichy assault rifle being fired.
OFB Excalibur MK-1 Rifle being fired.
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Speaking of handgun replacement, there is a much more modern offering from IWI than the Jericho...
...meet the Masada -
It finally happened. Whew.
MoD inks deal for fast track procurement of 72,000 SiG Sauer rifles today. All rifles to be made in @sigsauerinc plant in New Hampshire. This is @adgpi 's first US-made rifle for frontline troops. My recent report on the purchase. https://t.co/VqvvE277ef
— Sandeep (@SandeepUnnithan) February 12, 2019
It seems that OFB and ARDE have come up with a new carbine for Army 5.56x45mm tender.They are claiming it to be derived from insas 1c, this do remind me of the kalantak .
While I will reserve my comment on its performance,which is yet to be seen but a cursory look at the design ,does disappoint.
It seems ARDE and OFB are struck in rudimentary design.They are either unaware or are too full of themselves to take a look at evolving small arm design throughout the world.
The stock appears to be a metal side folding similar to insas 1c.It is a good,durable design but better, equally durable and light weight stock design are already available in open market,which also provide option of adjustable length,cheek rest,recoil reducing buffer.
Coming to the receiver ,it is a machined one.Even though a machined receiver is fine for durability,they could have tried with a mix of polymer and high strength aluminium for the receiver,which would have reduced the weight further.
The iron sight are similar to insas and kalantak and I am fine with it.
The picatinny rail on the top of the dust cover is fine,but if this has a similar design of insas 1c hinged top cover ,I wonder how good it will be in retaining zero.Even Kalashnikov company faced a lot of problems,in designing a dust cover that could retain zero.Hope OFB and DRDO have done their homework.
Coming to pistol grip ,it resemble the one on insas 1c ,amogh and ghatak.The trigger group is similar to insas 1c,same goes for the safety and mag release lever .
Magazine looks like polymer 30 rounds mag.Which is fine but would have preferred a window or black translucent mag.
Charging handle design seem similar to insas,however it seem to be a non reciprocating , side charging handle. Unlike the forward located charging handle found in insas it has been shifted to side in this,which is not a bad thing.
In the front ,it seem to have taken inspiration from GALIL SAR handguard. There is a single piece polymer handguard .Instead of a removable cover on top of the gas tube ,they have mounted rails on the gas tube itself,which is a good thing ,considering how fragile that top cover on insas is.
Even though this handguard seem ergonomic to grip,but it appears too short for comfort.There will be a greater risk of burning hand with such a short handguard,plus shooter would prefer more real estate to grip the rifle as per the comfort of his support hand.With charging handle moved to the side ,they could have easily adopted a modern design handguard.
I also fail to understand with opensource new design like keymod and M-lock available ,why they didn't incorporated those feature in designing a new handguard.Right now a small rail is present just below the gas block for foregrip. The shooter does not have the option to change the position of the foregrip as per his/her comfort .Plus ,it appears that accessory mounted on the side,close to gas block might get affected from recoil.
They could have provided a free floated handguard,it seem like an opportunity missed.Overall I am disappointed with the handguard arrangement.
Flash hider looks like a short FNC type flash hider.Since the pic is in low resolution , I am not too sure.The barrel appears to be short,going by the kalantak spec ,I assume it to be 13inch barrel.
Overall a decent design,but in 21st century,with the advent of internet age and so much open source knowledge available a much better design was expected from them.I want to root for DRDO/OFB ,but with such design they make it hard .I believe much better carbine are available these days in 16 inch barrel,it will be a hard task for this carbine unless MOD and government in the name of Make in India,budget force this upon the Army.
South Korean K1 carbine used to look like this
But now has been improved to this K2c
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On closer inspection,it seems that this carbine does not have a hinged dust cover,commonly found in insas family of firearms.This looks like divided into two parts lower and upper ,just like FAL.So the bolt carrier group seemed to be housed in upper ,while trigger group in the lower.Also on closer inspection there appear to be two take down pins and Lever.The gas block does appear 45 degree from the photo.Will have to wait for more details before further evaluation .
Army launches hunt for 56,000 night sights for assault rifles
The army wants 40,000 image intensifier-based night sights and 16,000 thermal imaging based night sights, officials said.
INDIA Updated: Feb 12, 2019 15:48 IST
Rahul Singh Hindustan Times, New Delhi
Original equipment manufacturers have been asked to respond to both RFIs by March 15, 2019.(PTI photo)
The Indian Army on Monday issued two requests for information (RFI) for equipping thousands of assault rifles with two different types of night sights to bolster the night-fighting capabilities of its soldiers, two officials familiar with the development said.
The army has launched a hunt for image intensifier and thermal imaging-based night sights for a total of 56,000 7.62X51 mm assault rifles, according to the RFIs. Image intensifier-based night sights amplify ambient light for detecting targets, while thermal imaging sights spot targets by their body heat.
The army wants 40,000 image intensifier-based night sights and 16,000 thermal imaging based night sights, the officials said. The RFI for image intensifiers states that its sight should allow soldiers to aim up to 500 metres and to detect a human target at minimum 600 metres. Another key army requirement is that the sights should have a service life of 10,000 hours of operation or 10 years, whichever is earlier.
The second RFI states that the thermal imaging-based sights should facilitate accurate engagement of targets at a range of 500 metres. The sights should also be able to detect a moving human target at 800 metres and recognize it at 500 metres. These sights should have a minimum service life of 10,000 hours of operation or 12 years, whichever is earlier.
Original equipment manufacturers have been asked to respond to both RFIs by March 15, 2019. The requests for proposals for the night sights will be issued in August 2019 to take the proposed procurement forward.
According to the RFIs, the image intensifier-based night sights have to be delivered between six to 48 months of the signing of contract and the thermal imaging-based night sights will have to be supplied between six to 24 months.
The infantry is virtually blind and the night sights will provide soldiers a much-needed capability, said former Northern Army commander Lieutenant General BS Jaswal (retd).
“Even if the surveillance equipment detects the enemy, the shooter can’t see the target. Despite detection, there is no integration between the shooter and the sensor for accurate engagement,” he said.
“World over armies are going in for shooter-to-sensor integration. It is the need of the hour for the Indian Army too. Ideally, we should go in for night sights for 7.62X39 mm rifles too.”
The army wants 40,000 image intensifier-based night sights and 16,000 thermal imaging based night sights, officials said.
INDIA Updated: Feb 12, 2019 15:48 IST
Rahul Singh Hindustan Times, New Delhi
Original equipment manufacturers have been asked to respond to both RFIs by March 15, 2019.(PTI photo)
The Indian Army on Monday issued two requests for information (RFI) for equipping thousands of assault rifles with two different types of night sights to bolster the night-fighting capabilities of its soldiers, two officials familiar with the development said.
The army has launched a hunt for image intensifier and thermal imaging-based night sights for a total of 56,000 7.62X51 mm assault rifles, according to the RFIs. Image intensifier-based night sights amplify ambient light for detecting targets, while thermal imaging sights spot targets by their body heat.
The army wants 40,000 image intensifier-based night sights and 16,000 thermal imaging based night sights, the officials said. The RFI for image intensifiers states that its sight should allow soldiers to aim up to 500 metres and to detect a human target at minimum 600 metres. Another key army requirement is that the sights should have a service life of 10,000 hours of operation or 10 years, whichever is earlier.
The second RFI states that the thermal imaging-based sights should facilitate accurate engagement of targets at a range of 500 metres. The sights should also be able to detect a moving human target at 800 metres and recognize it at 500 metres. These sights should have a minimum service life of 10,000 hours of operation or 12 years, whichever is earlier.
Original equipment manufacturers have been asked to respond to both RFIs by March 15, 2019. The requests for proposals for the night sights will be issued in August 2019 to take the proposed procurement forward.
According to the RFIs, the image intensifier-based night sights have to be delivered between six to 48 months of the signing of contract and the thermal imaging-based night sights will have to be supplied between six to 24 months.
The infantry is virtually blind and the night sights will provide soldiers a much-needed capability, said former Northern Army commander Lieutenant General BS Jaswal (retd).
“Even if the surveillance equipment detects the enemy, the shooter can’t see the target. Despite detection, there is no integration between the shooter and the sensor for accurate engagement,” he said.
“World over armies are going in for shooter-to-sensor integration. It is the need of the hour for the Indian Army too. Ideally, we should go in for night sights for 7.62X39 mm rifles too.”
Army launches hunt for 56,000 night sights for assault rifles
The army wants 40,000 image intensifier-based night sights and 16,000 thermal imaging based night sights, officials said.
INDIA Updated: Feb 12, 2019 15:48 IST
Rahul Singh Hindustan Times, New Delhi
Original equipment manufacturers have been asked to respond to both RFIs by March 15, 2019.(PTI photo)
The Indian Army on Monday issued two requests for information (RFI) for equipping thousands of assault rifles with two different types of night sights to bolster the night-fighting capabilities of its soldiers, two officials familiar with the development said.
The army has launched a hunt for image intensifier and thermal imaging-based night sights for a total of 56,000 7.62X51 mm assault rifles, according to the RFIs. Image intensifier-based night sights amplify ambient light for detecting targets, while thermal imaging sights spot targets by their body heat.
The army wants 40,000 image intensifier-based night sights and 16,000 thermal imaging based night sights, the officials said. The RFI for image intensifiers states that its sight should allow soldiers to aim up to 500 metres and to detect a human target at minimum 600 metres. Another key army requirement is that the sights should have a service life of 10,000 hours of operation or 10 years, whichever is earlier.
The second RFI states that the thermal imaging-based sights should facilitate accurate engagement of targets at a range of 500 metres. The sights should also be able to detect a moving human target at 800 metres and recognize it at 500 metres. These sights should have a minimum service life of 10,000 hours of operation or 12 years, whichever is earlier.
Original equipment manufacturers have been asked to respond to both RFIs by March 15, 2019. The requests for proposals for the night sights will be issued in August 2019 to take the proposed procurement forward.
According to the RFIs, the image intensifier-based night sights have to be delivered between six to 48 months of the signing of contract and the thermal imaging-based night sights will have to be supplied between six to 24 months.
The infantry is virtually blind and the night sights will provide soldiers a much-needed capability, said former Northern Army commander Lieutenant General BS Jaswal (retd).
“Even if the surveillance equipment detects the enemy, the shooter can’t see the target. Despite detection, there is no integration between the shooter and the sensor for accurate engagement,” he said.
“World over armies are going in for shooter-to-sensor integration. It is the need of the hour for the Indian Army too. Ideally, we should go in for night sights for 7.62X39 mm rifles too.”
A welcome move (although can't help but think this is the nth time Army sets out to procure something but ends up coming back empty handed owing to one reason or another like a single-vendor situation or someone voicing objections or sending an anonymous letter that leads to cancellation of the whole tender by MoD). Hope a local private manufacturer like Tonbo Imaging wins.
In my personal opinion, there are a couple ways to approach night-fighting:
First method (which we seem to be following): Is to put the relevant night sights on the weapon itself. This has an advantage with regard to reducing the weight on the soldier's head (as it won't be compulsory to carry helmet-mounted NVG). The disadvantage is that the weapon becomes much heavier, and also you can only see in the night where your weapon is pointing - all round situational awareness is absent (unless helmet NVG is also carried).
Second method: Use only helmet-mounted NVG and only day sights on weapon (which will be more or less same as night sight if you see through with NVG).
Seeing through an EOTech holo with PVS-14:
Either way, day optics on the weapon are a must. Especially when we talk about older-generation NVGs like our BEL-made single-tube types (which seems copied from PVS-7 to some degree), there are certain problems with focusing on close or long distance objects. It's not uncommon for the focus to having to be manually set to either short (where you can clearly see your iron sights and close surroundings, but can't clearly see the target your irons are supposed to be on) or long distance focus (where you can see the target, but your irons and surroundings are out of focus). This is why having magnifiers (day) on the weapon is a must.
Alternatively, one can choose to go with helmet-mounted NVG and adopt weapon-mounted IR Laser Aiming Modules (LAM) like the PEQ-15 in a big way -
These would allow the shooter to see clearly where exactly his weapon is pointing when he pulls the trigger without necessarily having to bring the gun up to the traditional sightline (although it is still recommend if comfortable).
I would be fine with the regular infantry being issued weapon-mounted night sights only...but I would personally think at least the CI/CT units like RR would be better off with proper dual-tube helmet mounted NVG and LAM method instead, which can afford them much better situation awareness which should be paramount requirement in urban settings and CQB. Again, that is only my personal, non-professional opinion.
EDIT: If buying separate LAMs is not for you, then at least sights that combine IR/visible laser within the optic mount (like BEL Trinetra or the Meprolight MOR) should be considered -
+++
That said, what is truly sad however is to see Special Forces like the Para SF being issued the same single-tube BEL NVG which infantry uses near LoC. They should really look at Tonbo Imaging's BNVD-P quad-tube panoramic NVG (meant for helicopter crew navigation, but I'm pretty sure an SF operator version should be feasible) -
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@Maximus @Parthu
If i understand it right, the present requirement is for
1. 72,000 (Imported) + 6,50,000 (MII) Battle Rifles (7.62 NATO) to replace INSAS.
2. 94,000 (Imported) + 3,50,000 (MII) Carbines (5.56 NATO)
3. 6,50,000 7.62x39 cartridge Rifles to replace the present AKMs in CAPFs, RR and Ghatak?
If i understand it right, the present requirement is for
1. 72,000 (Imported) + 6,50,000 (MII) Battle Rifles (7.62 NATO) to replace INSAS.
2. 94,000 (Imported) + 3,50,000 (MII) Carbines (5.56 NATO)
3. 6,50,000 7.62x39 cartridge Rifles to replace the present AKMs in CAPFs, RR and Ghatak?
The MII component for 7.62 Nato rifles is for only 2,50,000 rifles AFAIK.
2. is correct.
The 6,50,000 Kalashnikovs are not just for current AK operators, but for regular infantry as well (replacing INSAS). The 7.62 Nato rifles will only replace INSAS in frontline units. Kalashnikov will replace it across regular infantry.
Orders for AKs from OFB-Kalashnikov JV for CAPFs will be over and above those 6.5 lakh I believe. It's very likely that production of all OFB-engineered AK clones like Ghaatak and Trichy Assault Rifles will stop once the Amethi factory is up and running. If I was Kalashnikov director, I would set this as a pre-condition before commencing of official ToT for designs and manufacturing tooling for 200 series AKs.
All 7.62x51 rifles coming off modern NATO country/Israeli production lines from reputable companies will have fairly similar quality standard, stopping power and range/penetration matrix, owing to them all shooting the same round.
SIG 716 is based on the Armalite AR-10 design which is a very tried-and-tested, reliable design. SIG Sauer manufacturing standard is regarded as one of the best in US.
Only real differences when it comes to choosing one or the other would likely come down to who bids lower. Like @Maximus posted before, SIG offered a very competitive price that sums up to only $990 per gun. I would imagine the SCAR-H would have been much more expensive. When competing for military bulk orders, companies have the luxury of offering the guns at prices much lower than civilian market MSRP.
Heckler & Koch as far as I know still has an export ban on several countries, including India - they never competed.
It is generally a myth that local OFB-made guns would be so much cheaper than imports, as is evident in the price quoted by OFB for JVPC, which is comparable to the quote from Caracal for CAR816 (which is a far more well-made and reliable design based on AR-15). Read this post: Small Arms & Tactical Equipment
The HK G3 is a very old system, yes it is still capable and reliable, but compared to modern offerings, it falls short across the board. Including weight, modularity, ease of maintenance, among others.
That's a mess. At most it should have been 2 types, but it seems its will be 5 different rifles now.
By the way, not all 72,000 of the SIGs will be for Army:
#indianarmy 66,400@IAF_MCC 4000@indiannavy 2000#SigSauer#AssaultRifles
— Neeraj Rajput (@neeraj_rajput) February 12, 2019