Small Arms & Tactical Equipment

[Gautam]

The other main development in the indigenous ballistic overvest space is the NIJ Level III compliant Bhabha Kavach ballistic resistant jacket developed by BARC, Trombay. These are 20% lighter than existing jackets and weigh around 4.8kg with trauma less than 20 mm. pic.twitter.com/6mN5jyvAPw

— Saurav Jha (@SJha1618) March 14, 2019

 

[Austerlitz]

 

[Gautam]

Rajasthan Police ERT Commando carrying OFB 7.62×51mm Sniper Rifle pic.twitter.com/jPkq2cioPW

— Jay Wankhade (@jaywankhadejrw) March 15, 2019

OFB's new Sniper Rifle enters service with Tamil Nadu Police Commandos First seen during 8th All India Police Commando Competition held at NSG , Manesar, Jan 2018(credit in pic.)
Details :
Range : 800-1000m
Calibre : 7.62×51mm
Weight :6.7 KG
Cost : 2.5 Lkhs
Mag : 5 rds

More than a year in service now. Anyone have any details on how it is performing ? Doesn't seem to have a floating barrel and wooden furniture, doesn't that effect performance ?

 

[Gautam]

Defence Ministry plans to modernise Indian weaponry after Pulwama, may soon induct 10 lakh hand grenades for combat troops
Wasn't there a DRDO Shivalik grenade ? What happened to it ?

 

[Parthu]

I just realized, Lewis Machine & Tool (LMT) is the manufacturer of the L129A1, the British Army's DMR -

 

[Gautam]

"There is lightweight, small arms technology project," Lord said. The key is the combined weapons and ammunition offer a 40 per cent weight reduction and improved accuracy.

The ammunition uses full polymer casings that significantly reduced weight and give less heat transfer and recoil.

Read more at:
//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/68438000.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

What is this guy talking about ? @Parthu @Milspec
Polymer casing for ammo, as in polymer instead of brass ? Does that even exists ?

edit: Holy cow it does.

 

[Parthu]

"There is lightweight, small arms technology project," Lord said. The key is the combined weapons and ammunition offer a 40 per cent weight reduction and improved accuracy.

The ammunition uses full polymer casings that significantly reduced weight and give less heat transfer and recoil.

Read more at:
//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/68438000.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

What is this guy talking about ? @Parthu @Milspec
Polymer casing for ammo, as in polymer instead of brass ? Does that even exists ?

edit: Holy cow it does.
View attachment 5052

Yes - infact the future US Army rifle/SAW are already planned to have polymer casing ammo. Look up the Next-Gen Squad Weapons (NGSW) project.

In my opinion, this is exactly the kind of thing DTTI should be pushed for.

 

[Gautam]

Yes - infact the future US Army rifle/SAW are already planned to have polymer casing ammo. Look up the Next-Gen Squad Weapons (NGSW) project.

In my opinion, this is exactly the kind of thing DTTI should be pushed for.

I am reading about it now. Thanks for the info. So, the Americans want 6.8 mm rifles huh ? Suddenly this all sounds like the Future Vertical Lift program where we were invited. What will the NATO do, stick to 5.56 or switch to 6.8 or maybe 7.62 ?

I wonder about the ballistic characteristics of the 6.8 though. Is it like the 5.56 that is flat flight path or the 7.62 Russian like parabolic ?

 

[Parthu]

I am reading about it now. Thanks for the info. So, the Americans want 6.8 mm rifles huh ? Suddenly this all sounds like the Future Vertical Lift program where we were invited. What will the NATO do, stick to 5.56 or switch to 6.8 or maybe 7.62 ?

I wonder about the ballistic characteristics of the 6.8 though. Is it like the 5.56 that is flat flight path or like the 7.62 Russian like parabolic ?

@Milspec would be the person to ask, as he's personally put in time with all of them.

 

[Milspec]

I am reading about it now. Thanks for the info. So, the Americans want 6.8 mm rifles huh ? Suddenly this all sounds like the Future Vertical Lift program where we were invited. What will the NATO do, stick to 5.56 or switch to 6.8 or maybe 7.62 ?

I wonder about the ballistic characteristics of the 6.8 though. Is it like the 5.56 that is flat flight path or the 7.62 Russian like parabolic ?

@Parthu thanks for tagging me in.

Ballistics for all projectiles are similar, the run flat for a while and then start dropping due gravity. the other thing to throw in is the drag due to design of the bullet, often referred to as aerodynamic efficiency, which leads the bullet to lose energy after a while slowing it down and intensifying it's drop due to gravity leading to different parabolic curves at different distances.

Modern rounds like the .224 Valkyrie are twice as aerodynamically efficient as the 5.56 Nato round. 6.8 SPC was developed by remington for SOCOM, as something that would fit between the 5.56N and 7.62 nato, So Remington used a modified 30 rem case and 270 winchester bullet combination to develop the 6.8 round. 30 rem case is stubbier than the 5.56 and it was trimmed to fit in a stanag mag. .270 Win is champion hunting round. Result was 6.8 SPC which was an incredibly faster flatter shooting round, and Remington lucked out with the proven .270 bullet as it was more efficient.


Personally I have never shot 6.8 SPC as it has almost become a unicorn to spot, as 6.5 grendel has taken over that space, but the 6.8SPC now is making it's come back in the form of the 1000 yard shooter 224 Valkyrie which is a .224 optimized bullet crammed in a 6.8 SPC case.

6.5 vs 6.8




So 6.8SPC has better terminal ballistics, than the 5.56, can shoot flatter like the 5.56 and deliver more energy, 6.5 grendel in my opinion is much better.


And I have been looking at 6.8 vs 6.5 data for a while now, and for the last week was looking at 224val vs 6.5 gren data, and finally decided to buy a 6.5 Gren system. I have been advocating the 6.5 Gren for IA for the longest time, This one single round has the potential to replace, 7.62x39, 5.56x45N, 7.62x51N and 7.62x54R all by itself.

Proxy War - Tactics And Equipment
Small Arms & Tactical Equipment

 

[Gautam]

So 6.8SPC has better terminal ballistics, than the 5.56, can shoot flatter like the 5.56 and deliver more energy, 6.5 grendel in my opinion is much better.

By the spec sheet you provided that does seem to be the case. But that brings the question of why the US army is going for 6.8 instead of 6.5. Surely they know of the presence of such a round, 6.5 has been out for a while. If my limited "research" on the internet is anything to go by then the US army was looking for a round that can take out an enemy wearing body armour from a longer range. 5.56 just wasn't providing enough punch. Surely the 6.5 can do that job better, but they are rather specific about the choice of calibre.

The 6.8 mm is obviously heavier than the 5.56 mm which would explain the movement towards the polymer casing rounds. Just how heavier is it exactly ? Does the polymer casing provide any further performance enhancements ?

I have been advocating the 6.5 Gren for IA for the longest time, This one single round has the potential to replace, 7.62x39, 5.56x51N, 7.62x51N and 7.62x54R all by itself.

Yes, it does seem to out perform all of them. Getting a single round to replace the veritable zoo of calibres that we have in service would be a boon like no other for logistics, training, stocks etc. I think even the 6.8 can replace them all. I really hope we get on with this DTTI program along with the US of A.

 

[Milspec]

By the spec sheet you provided that does seem to be the case. But that brings the question of why the US army is going for 6.8 instead of 6.5. Surely they know of the presence of such a round, 6.5 has been out for a while. If my limited "research" on the internet is anything to go by then the US army was looking for a round that can take out an enemy wearing body armour from a longer range. 5.56 just wasn't providing enough punch. Surely the 6.5 can do that job better, but they are rather specific about the choice of calibre.
.

US army's selections have been marred by Gun Industry politics rather than actual performance of the round itself, one of the reasons why 5.56x45 a .223 remington derivative was picked in the first place. Keyword being "Remington", also know as the big green in the US. The funny part is the 6.8 SPC is very similar to the .280 british (7x43mm) which the US actively sabotaged to sneak the .308 win as 7.62nato.

6.8SPC has already lost the local market to 6.5 Gren, owing to the bullet drop characteristics and drift beyond 800 yards , where 6.8 just gives up all the while not really bringing a lot to table on entry would side. My friends take antelope with 6.5 gren easy, so there is no doubt that it will have the knockdown power needed. But irrespective of the nitty gritty of 6.5 vs 6.8 both rounds are superior to the 5.56 and 7.62x39 as an intermediate system. And the biggest advantage being accommodated on an AR platform, with standard stanag mag; the versatility it brings is immense, with two push pins you swap from 5.56x45 nato to a 6.5/6.8 to a .458 soccom. covering punching holes into pretty much every threat in the world from combatant to an engine block.

 

[Gautam]

US army's selections have been marred by Gun Industry politics rather than actual performance of the round itself

Politics if you have an industry, politics if you don't have an industry. Where does a man go.

Keyword being "Remington", also know as the big green in the US.

What are they like American Ambanis ?

But irrespective of the nitty gritty of 6.5 vs 6.8 both rounds are superior to the 5.56 and 7.62x39 as an intermediate system. And the biggest advantage being accommodated on an AR platform, with standard stanag mag; the versatility it brings is immense, with two push pins your swap from 5.56x45 nato to a 6.5/6.8 to a .458 soccom. covering punching holes into pretty much every threat in the world from combatant to a engine block.

At this point of time I'll be happy if they can pick one. Any one. And complete the deal.

 

[Milspec]

Politics if you have an industry, politics if you don't have an industry. Where does a man go.

What are they like American Ambanis ?

At this point of time I'll be happy if they can pick one. Any one. And complete the deal.

Colt, Remington, FN, Sig and Vista outdoor are big ones in the US. With smaller specialized companies like Larue, Bravo comp, desert tac dominating spec ops orders.
Freedom Group:, renamed today as Remington outdoor company owns Remington (firearms and Ammo); bushmaster, dpms, marlin, AAC, Storm lake, tapco etc. they are struggling financially on their firearms business due to intense compition and consolodation on the other side as well, but they have had good relations with the NRA and NRA lobbyists given they are originally owned by Cerebrus Capital a 50 billion dollar company (created by Steve fienberg who heads President's Intelligence Advisory Board, and chaired by Dan Quayle, former VP of US, for George HW Bush's govt)

 

[Gautam]

@Parthu @Milspec Guys, look what i found. More camel packs baby. Ain't no way these guys are Ghataks, regular troops from northern command I think. Pics from Northern Army command twitter page. Joint Exercise Al Nagah 2019 between Indian and Omani army. Ex held in Oman which explains the Styr AUG, they seem to have a wide vareity of muzzle devices, what's up with that ? Also Omani army seem to be using EXFIL helmets, what are our guys using ?

 

[Parthu]

@Parthu @Milspec Guys, look what i found. More camel packs baby. Ain't no way these guys are Ghataks, regular troops from northern command I think.

Yes, the unit-level purchases are available for regulars as well. As I said, I'd seen CamelBak-type hydration packs on JAK LI as well, years ago. As you can see, even the hard-knuckle gloves our guys have here are individual/unit-level purchases. Army doesn't issue that type of gloves as standard equipment.

they seem to have a wide vareity of muzzle devices, what's up with that ?

There's only two types - one for the older AUG (which our guys are using) are one for the newer AUG variant (the ones Omani troops are using, with P-rails and everything). Both appear to be factory-standard.

Also Omani army seem to be using EXFIL helmets, what are our guys using ?

The MKU ACH of course. I'm glad we got helmet covers, and also the cloth material for knee & elbow pads, in the Army's standard PC Disruptive camouflage pattern.

 

[Gautam]

Yes, the unit-level purchases are available for regulars as well. As I said, I'd seen CamelBak-type hydration packs on JAK LI as well, years ago. As you can see, even the hard-knuckle gloves our guys have here are individual/unit-level purchases. Army doesn't issue that type of gloves as standard equipment.

If true,that would be some unprecedented levels of co-ordination right there. The camel packs on display here are the same as with that GHATAK operator that I posted a few days back same as the case with the hard-knuckle gloves. But as we have seen so far unit level purchases hardly bring uniformity in basic gear. I mean look at the helmet scene, somebody is using EXFIL, somebody else Team Wendy and MKU and so on. But this seems to me like a bulk order of sorts.

The MKU ACH of course. I'm glad we got helmet covers, and also the cloth material for knee & elbow pads, in the Army's standard PC Disruptive camouflage pattern.

ACH ? Wow, the cover threw me off course. What is that black lining on the edges of the helmet ? Omanis don't seem to have it.

 

[Parthu]

If true,that would be some unprecedented levels of co-ordination right there. The camel packs on display here are the same as with that GHATAK operator that I posted a few days back same as the case with the hard-knuckle gloves.

Once a unit adopts something, chances are always high that the same configuration will see widespread usage. For example, look at the FAB Defense upgrade kits for AKs. First, RR got them. Now everyone from RR, AR, Special Forces, CAPFs, Police forces, SWAT/QRT units, everyone got the same kit.

Coordination, especially among Police QRT/SWAT units happens to a great deal as these units are routinely cross-trained and can get a look at the kit used by other units in such exercises. For example, look up the number of SWAT units in the country that have adopted PETZL gloves.

But as we have seen so far unit level purchases hardly bring uniformity in basic gear. I mean look at the helmet scene, somebody is using EXFIL, somebody else Team Wendy and MKU and so on. But this seems to me like a bulk order of sorts.

EXFIL and TeamWendy are the same thing. TeamWendy is the company, EXFIL is the product name for the helmet.

That said, MKU-made ACH helmets are now being issued as standard for all IA infantrymen. They will replace the Model 1974 type which was used by infantry regulars till now, the Patkas used by RR troops will also be replaced by these ACH.

Special Forces will always use a wide variety of helmets, whether in India or elsewhere. In the absence of specialist helmets (high-cut, with rails, velcro patches, advanced retention systems etc.) issued by Army, not surprising for units like Ghatak to adopt ad-hoc solutions by purchasing helmets like EXFIL at unit-level.

What is that black lining on the edges of the helmet ? Omanis don't seem to have it.

It's just a rubber mold for the edges...I believe, to prevent damage to the edges*. Most helmets nowadays don't have it.

* It's possible the cloth cover in our case is being retained by the rubber mold. But covers don't usually work that way - can't say for sure unless I've personally held the helmet.

 

[Gautam]

Once a unit adopts something, chances are always high that the same configuration will see widespread usage. For example, look at the FAB Defense upgrade kits for AKs. First, RR got them. Now everyone from RR, AR, Special Forces, CAPFs, Police forces, SWAT/QRT units, everyone got the same kit.

Coordination, especially among Police QRT/SWAT units happens to a great deal as these units are routinely cross-trained and can get a look at the kit used by other units in such exercises. For example, look up the number of SWAT units in the country that have adopted PETZL gloves.

That's very heartening to hear. We don't want another zoo of gear with no uniformity.

EXFIL and TeamWendy are the same thing. TeamWendy is the company, EXFIL is the product name for the helmet.

F**k*d that one up, didn't I.

 

[Gautam]

NSG and CISF joint multi agency mock exercise on armed attack CISF Unit ONGC Hazira involving all stakeholders; NSG, BDDS team & Local administration. Pic credit "Unknowncommando" from DFI. Do follow his twitter page, excellent stuff. NSG seem to have some new HCBH, not sire who makes them. Also notice comms. gear, unfortunately no ear protection yet.