Yeas it is, if you considered the lethality of F16 & JF17 bk 3. Also i beleive that, your not agreeing with me placing IAF behind PAF and perfectly ok for me to keep IAF behind soko, japan & china. If you keep aside your patriotism fir a moment, ypu will be able to accept the reality of IAF.
Sukhoi Su-30MKI
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
Ok, you need to use your logical thinking sometimes. Today there is a report that India's poverty index is poorer than Pakistan & Nepal. Do you beleive that report true? No, because you know that its not the ground reality, you have many other information at your finger tip to disagree with the poverty index figure of india.
Like that, WDMMA report too should be taken after applying your logical thinking filter on it. An air force operating vintage rust buckets like Jaguar, mig21,mirage, mig29 & inadequate fuel guzzling technologically inferior aircraft like mki and short legged LCA ( atleast its better than mki when comes to survivability due to it superior EW suite), and extremely in adequate numbers of AEWS & C4 aircrafts cannot be superior to Chines, logically.
Why the famed Russian Air Force failed in Ukraine and the vital lessons IAF can draw from it
Defeat of Russian air power in Ukraine raises hard questions for IAF. In the 1st of a 3-part series, ThePrint investigates lessons from Ukraine war for IAF’s equipment & doctrines.
theprint.in
Countries like the US and China have specialised multiple electronic warfare aircraft that will fly with their combat jets to jam and spoof enemy radars and air defence systems.
Brother we Indians have old tradition of even Charwak to have a free speech and opinion. So you are free to believe whatever you want. But....Ok, you need to use your logical thinking sometimes. Today there is a report that India's poverty index is poorer than Pakistan & Nepal. Do you beleive that report true? No, because you know that its not the ground reality, you have many other information at your finger tip to disagree with the poverty index figure of india.
Like that, WDMMA report too should be taken after applying your logical thinking filter on it. An air force operating vintage rust buckets like Jaguar, mig21,mirage, mig29 & inadequate fuel guzzling technologically inferior aircraft like mki and short legged LCA ( atleast its better than mki when comes to survivability due to it superior EW suite), and extremely in adequate numbers of AEWS & C4 aircrafts cannot be superior to Chines, logically.
The Indian defence establishment sources pointed out that the war has exposed that Russian fighters lack the ability of modern electronic warfare and also the capability to fight beyond the visual range, forcing them to come within the bubble of the Ukrainian air defence systems.Why the famed Russian Air Force failed in Ukraine and the vital lessons IAF can draw from it
Defeat of Russian air power in Ukraine raises hard questions for IAF. In the 1st of a 3-part series, ThePrint investigates lessons from Ukraine war for IAF’s equipment & doctrines.
Countries like the US and China have specialised multiple electronic warfare aircraft that will fly with their combat jets to jam and spoof enemy radars and air defence systems.
A squadron of SU30MKI equipped with Derby ER would wipe out entire PAF within two days. There is a reason IAF terms it as their Air Dominance Fighter. Add in Tejas equipped with Derby ER and Rafale equipped with Meteor and Mica, Mirage 2000 equipped with Mica RF and IR along with Mig29 UPG and IAf has enough firepower to take on any air force one on one.
Two front war? That's a different issue altogether.
Most of the Indians are masters in giving flattery, i am not one among them.
How long you been in to any defense forum? I m been in to this for the last 18+ years. I have seen people getting mental orgasam back in days on MKI, many of the indians used to call MKI as raptor of East, on feb27 that shit myth got busted. Now you are telling MKI with Derby ER will do some oit og hell performance, shit no, nothing will happen. MKI with Derby ER will do the same shit which it has done with bloody Russian missiles. Without new suite, without intelligence, without networking, without AESA mki is just a blood hell sitting duck in sky.
The only good aircraft we having now is Rafales, but that is merely 36 in numbers.
Tejas is good, but it can only do the job what Mig21 is doing, ir cap & interceptor by stationing near border. I want yo add one more thing,despite of our offering of taking payment via barter system ie palm oil for aircraft,Malaysia chooses Korean FA50 over tejas, which is developed as a trainer aircraft. Also it is more expensive than Tejas. Says many things, right?
Rest all other aircrafts are useless.
And you didn't tell anything about our drawback in AEWS arena .
Do u have any doubt in it?Lethality of JF17 Block 3 and F16?? Lol
1. US
2. PLAAF
3. Saudi Arabia with 211 F-15's 152 being the SA model with some F-15S upgraded to SA.
4. Japan with 200 F-15's
5. IAF
This is just pure air to air no air to ground this is my list. It also includes quality, numbers and pilot hours/combat training.
All J-16's have AESA which puts them #2 on the list.
Saudi Arabia has the most modern F-15's next to the US but I'm not too sure about their pilots even though they take part in Red Flag.
Japan's F-15 fleet is huge but lack a lot but their pilots are top notch very disciplined and have experience intercepting Russian and Chinese aircraft.
IAF Flankers have no AESA and pilot training and experience is not in the same level of Nippon pilots.
Nice list
Even though IAF flankers don't have AESA but BARS is still pretty damn powerful. And India has got 262 of them which is more than Japanese and Saudi Air Force Air to Air Eagle numbers. Plus powerful radar is only one of the games that it can play. Supermaneuverability counts too which none except US(187 Raptors), Russia(250 Super Flankers) and China( 24 SU35) have.
India still has 262 flankers which are supermaneuverable.
Also I politely disagree with your assessment that pilot training and experience of Indian pilots is less than Japanese pilots. USAF opinion after Cope India 2004 about IAF was very high, IMO.
Whether the glass is empty or full depends upon our perspective. MKI's performance during Swift Retort may have degraded its impression in your eyes but it has been enhanced for me.
Just 2 Sukhois stopping whole F16 fleet while dodging multiple AMRAAMs is unheard of. Actually it was just 1 MKI(Avenger 1) which remained on fight as his partner was low on fuel and left before the fight was over. The remaining MKI showed immense endurance and persistence when after evading multiple AIM-120C5s it actually came into firing position but by then F16s decided to retreat.
Only chink in the armour we found was the range of R77! Had MKIs been deployed with Derby ER, multiple F16s would had been shot down that day.
Swift Retort has also awaken IAF and slowly but surely the capabilities of SU30MKI is getting enhanced which bodes very well for us.
Says everything. Shows,the other things you said1 in your post # 1989 is just blabbering.
Our pm said something else, iys "agar Rafale hota toh"
Nice list
Even though IAF flankers don't have AESA but BARS is still pretty damn powerful. And India has got 262 of them which is more than Japanese and Saudi Air Force Air to Air Eagle numbers.
Saudi air force F-15SA are like latest F-15E's with apg-82, sniper pod, EW and latest missiles. My problem with them is their pilots and their capabilities to use those F-15SA's to their fullest. If Japan had 150+ F-15's of Saudi Arabia Japan would be #2 on my list.
"The least impressive thing about the (F-22) Raptor is its speed and maneuverability. And it it the fastest most maneuverable plane out there."
Maneuverability in todays air to air is least important of all factors the most important is situational awareness and BVR.
Cope India 04 has been done to death. At India's request, the U.S. agreed to mock combat at 3-to-1 odds and without the use of simulated long-range, radar-guided AIM-120 Amraams that even the odds with beyond-visual-range kills.
We have won multiple battles at the price of our peoples blood, not by Russian weapons. When the opposite party is handicapped, even the Russian weapons will seem like capable weapons. But against a modern equipped for they don't give the confidence to the people who work on them considering what effort people make to just keep them operational. Political statements, including few made by military leadership under guidance from political leadership, are effort to apply lipstick to make things look better. If you have chance, any visit to main airforce hubs will make eyes opened to the reality hidden behind bureaucratic wall. Or even the visit to frontline posts to give the glimpse. Not everything looks honky Dory as shown in Fanboys YouTube videos.No one thinks MKI is a liability? The poster who just posted before you, i.e., @Hydra, lol
Anyways, I am not talking about Super Sukhoi upgrade(it was always a marketing term given for MKI MLU).
I am talking about our current plane, i.e., SU-30MKI and calling it super flanker. Su27 was flanker while old SU27M i.e., old SU35 was termed super flanker. Later SU37 was presented as tech demonstrator. Our MKI is like twin seat version of SU37 terminator, hence called super flanker(by fanboys I must add).
We have won multiple wars with Russian weapons. And MKI has serious Indian content inside which is increasing with time. You can diss it all you want, but when the balloon goes up, MKI is still our enemy's biggest headache.
No doubt over the bravery of our Soldiers. Only a hater or fool would question it.
But despite what you said, Russian weapons have played a role in our past victories. S400, Su30MKI, Brahmos, Akula and even Mig 21/29 have worked quite well for us over the years. And slowly as we're becoming self-reliant, we're lessening our dependence on foreign weapons, which again is very important for our future sovereignty/war doctrine.
AESA makes all the difference. Even PESA is fine, like the Irbis-E, but the MKI's PESA is ancient.
Among heavies, the US, Chinese and Russians take the top 3 spots by default. The Su-35 is 30-40% superior to the F-15 of any make.
India was supposed to be operating the Su-57 by now, as per the original plan, alongside about 100+ MKIs upgraded with AESA. Things fell apart, partly thanks to the US/Russia combine, mostly thanks to India being broke. The other countries you listed have more money to spend than we do, so their procurements and upgrades are quicker.
In about 10-15 years, it will be difficult for even the Americans to compete with India financially. So things will begin changing drastically after that point, hence the American desperation to shamelessly cling to India.
Against the PAF, the MKI is adequate. Against the PLAAF, the MKI has been completely outclassed since 2018. And today the PLAAF is incomparable to the IAF with up to 150 J-20s in service.
While the MKI on its own will retain relevancy against the PAF until 2035, primarily due to its superior weapons, without the upgrades and stealth drones the MKI stands no chance against the PLAAF.
Our only saving grace today is the 36 Rafales.
Only if our economy grows in double digits, and it's a big "IF".
Even Then it will take another 20-25 years at the earliest.
Well That's Depressing.
More accurately, in 10-15 years, our military expansion can move as fast as China's, which in turn will make it faster than America's.
The defence budget comes out of tax revenues, which is growing way faster than GDP.
We got lucky.
Since the fight with PLAAF would take place over the Himalayas, our Flankers have a chance. And it's not that they haven't been updated at all. New SDR has been added. New Radio Altimeter(with flying low and Himalayas in mind). Also now PL15 has been matched with Derby ER(I consider this addition a game-changer).
Also most of our SU30 fleet has now 5th gen RWR Dhruti/Eagle Eye on them. In modern warfare RWR is as important as the Radar itself. Look at Raptor's AN/ALR-94. As they say if you emit you die. The sole purpose of Dhruti digital RWR is to intercept frequency hopping LPI modes of AESA radar. So if MKI can intercept their signal it could close in and then J20s/J10s/J16s etc. are toast. One MKI has destroyed two Eurofighters in simulated dogfight before. No fighter in the world can claim that.
Also Rafale is very important bird for us because thanks to SPECTRA it's virtually a VLO fighter. Our TACDE guys would already be making SOPs for SU30MKI on how to take on VLO fighters like J20 by using Rafale to simulate it. We can also update our threat library by using MKI's RWR against RBE-2AA LPI modes.
One more point is that we keep training with NATO countries something which PLAAF can ONLY dream of doing. During the latest Pitch Black exercise our Flankers also have got a taste of F35s.
So I respectfully disagree with your assumption that our only hope against the Chinks are Rafale.
Hilarious to see people boasting about PLAAF so called AESA equipped heavy fighters which were decimated by ancient radar equipped 2 decade old Gripen C of Thai Air Force in combat exercise.
Also forgetting AESA equipped Tejas Mk 1A will start arriving from 2024 which combined with MKI will be enough to counter the PLAAF heavyweights. Rafale will most probably be used only for SEAD/DEAD/nuclear role.
Also forgetting AESA equipped Tejas Mk 1A will start arriving from 2024 which combined with MKI will be enough to counter the PLAAF heavyweights. Rafale will most probably be used only for SEAD/DEAD/nuclear role.
Those were not aesa equipped. The Chinese brought j-10C with aesa in the next and they performed extremely well in bvr against gripen's.
Chinese aesa tech is not groundbreaking but it works. It's mediocre but it is aesa at the end of the day.