Sukhoi Su-30MKI

[Lolwa]

Tejas is good, but it can only do the job what Mig21 is doing, ir cap & interceptor by stationing near border. I want yo add one more thing,despite of our offering of taking payment via barter system ie palm oil for aircraft,Malaysia chooses Korean FA50 over tejas, which is developed as a trainer aircraft. Also it is more expensive than Tejas. Says many things, right?

Nah tejas can do what the Mirages do as well as what the mig 29 does. It has entirely surpassed the mig-23's and mig-27's in capability by a huge margin. The tejas mk1 is Gripen C tier in performance. That means it is capable of taking out every PAF aircraft except for the j-10C's even the blk 52's are in considerable danger against tejas.
The fa-50 proposed to the Malaysians is costing more than the tejas is because it doesn't exist. It's fa-50 blk 20 which hasn't even entered a design stage yet. The blk-20 is supposed to have the ge-414, apg-84(GaN) and sniper pod along with amraam integration( most likely the c-7). It will take atleast two years to even get it certified realistically. Tejas is much more mature product when compared to the fa-50 blk 20. The only issue is that this blk 20 will be a reality so that means we will have to invest in a tejas mk1 and re-engine the tejas mk1's with ge-414's in the future. And also invest ina GaN radar for the tejas mk1 too. The other thing we need to invest is american weapons integration which needs to happen if we need export success in other third world partner countries. Also all russian weaponry needs to be certified for tejas so that we can poach african markets that use the mig-29
The fa-50 does have one real advantage over the tejas and that is it's higher fuel capacity but it can't carry similar sized external tanks like the tejas.

 

[randomradio]

Since the fight with PLAAF would take place over the Himalayas, our Flankers have a chance. And it's not that they haven't been updated at all. New SDR has been added. New Radio Altimeter(with flying low and Himalayas in mind). Also now PL15 has been matched with Derby ER(I consider this addition a game-changer).

Also most of our SU30 fleet has now 5th gen RWR Dhruti/Eagle Eye on them. In modern warfare RWR is as important as the Radar itself. Look at Raptor's AN/ALR-94. As they say if you emit you die. The sole purpose of Dhruti digital RWR is to intercept frequency hopping LPI modes of AESA radar. So if MKI can intercept their signal it could close in and then J20s/J10s/J16s etc. are toast. One MKI has destroyed two Eurofighters in simulated dogfight before. No fighter in the world can claim that.


Also Rafale is very important bird for us because thanks to SPECTRA it's virtually a VLO fighter. Our TACDE guys would already be making SOPs for SU30MKI on how to take on VLO fighters like J20 by using Rafale to simulate it. We can also update our threat library by using MKI's RWR against RBE-2AA LPI modes.

One more point is that we keep training with NATO countries something which PLAAF can ONLY dream of doing. During the latest Pitch Black exercise our Flankers also have got a taste of F35s.

So I respectfully disagree with your assumption that our only hope against the Chinks are Rafale.

The qualitative difference between generations is too high. By the time the first MKI squadron is upgraded, which is 6-7 years away, the Chinese will very easily be operating over 500 J-20s, especially with a more modern engine, perhaps even another next gen light type. I won't be surprised if they have 1000+ next gen jets by 2030. Even Russia is working towards building 100 Su-57s a year.

The MKI cannot challenge the Chinese anymore, the timeline difference is too much, the jet is too old. The only thing our experience with Rafale and F-35 will demonstrate is how quickly the MKI will be killed. And the new EW suite and SDR will tell our MKI pilots how exactly they are getting killed.

Right now, we have a very small window of 2-3 years when the Chinese get more upgrades and numbers and learn how to use their new-fangled tech. Post that, it's gonna be a one-sided drubbing for many years because our tech insertion is expected only from 2030 onwards. All we have is 36 Rafales at the high end.

The only advantage we possibly have is if we do end up fighting this decade, the Chinese may hold back a lot of their capabilities 'cause of the US, no different from what Russia is doing in Ukraine. The Americans, Chinese and Russians are simply operating at a different level compared to everyone else. We can start that process only after 2035 or so.

 

[Arpuism]

Those were not aesa equipped. The Chinese brought j-10C with aesa in the next and they performed extremely well in bvr against gripen's.
Chinese aesa tech is not groundbreaking but it works. It's mediocre but it is aesa at the end of the day.

There is no proof of how well chinese AESA works. They have no experience of how well the western AESA works as well. So, you cannot just boast about PLAAF. Atleast IAF has handson experience on western AESA and have encountered western AESA in multiple exercises with MKI. IAF jaguar has western AESA.

 

[RASALGHUL]

IAF Flankers have no AESA

YUP!

and pilot training and experience is not in the same level of Nippon pilots.

How do you come to this conclusion?

 

[RASALGHUL]

The defence budget comes out of tax revenues, which is growing way faster than GDP

Tax base will surely grow, but that Rate of growth of tax base will surely decrease.
But, Yeah, I agree tax revenues will certainly grow better then GDP.

Off-topic:
Again, Welcome back.
Can I ask, On What other defence forum you are currently active?

 

[randomradio]

Tax base will surely grow, but that Rate of growth of tax base will surely decrease.
But, Yeah, I agree tax revenues will certainly grow better then GDP.

Off-topic:
Again, Welcome back.
Can I ask, On What other defence forum you are currently active?

Thanks. I'm only on this forum.

 

[Rajput Lion]

The qualitative difference between generations is too high. By the time the first MKI squadron is upgraded, which is 6-7 years away, the Chinese will very easily be operating over 500 J-20s, especially with a more modern engine, perhaps even another next gen light type. I won't be surprised if they have 1000+ next gen jets by 2030. Even Russia is working towards building 100 Su-57s a year.

The MKI cannot challenge the Chinese anymore, the timeline difference is too much, the jet is too old. The only thing our experience with Rafale and F-35 will demonstrate is how quickly the MKI will be killed. And the new EW suite and SDR will tell our MKI pilots how exactly they are getting killed.

Right now, we have a very small window of 2-3 years when the Chinese get more upgrades and numbers and learn how to use their new-fangled tech. Post that, it's gonna be a one-sided drubbing for many years because our tech insertion is expected only from 2030 onwards. All we have is 36 Rafales at the high end.

The only advantage we possibly have is if we do end up fighting this decade, the Chinese may hold back a lot of their capabilities 'cause of the US, no different from what Russia is doing in Ukraine. The Americans, Chinese and Russians are simply operating at a different level compared to everyone else. We can start that process only after 2035 or so.

I think having Rafale and experiencing its SPECTRA would make our Flanker better. Just few months ago DRDO has floated a tender under Project Nav Chakshu which would enhance MKI's EW and survivability by several times over what it has now. Rafale is a 4++ gen fighter while SU30MKI is a 4+ gen fighter. Even if we can achieve 90% of Rafale's EW capability it would bode quite well for us.

Here is an article about Project NavChakshu:

DRDO releases tender for detailed feasibility study for Integration of EW Suite on Sukhoi Su-30MKI​

The DRDO's Combat Aircraft Systems Development and Integration Center (CASDIC) has released a tender for the supply of a detailed feasibility study for integration of the Electronic Warfare suite on Sukhoi Su-30 aircraft that must be completed within six months from the date of order.

India has already started the process of Sukhoi Su-30 up-gradation with minor components in phases with limited airframes under the ‘Project Nava Chakshu’.


The Sukhoi Su-30 aircraft will be integrated with Next Generation Radar Warning Receiver, Advanced Self-Protection Jamming pod, and high band jammer pods.

The DRDO has also initiated the process to identify a partner to fabricate five units of Dual Color Missile Approach Warning system that will provide reliable capability to detect all approaching air-to-air and surface-to-air missiles of all generations.

The Sukhoi Su-30 will also get a dual-band infrared search and track system developed by Bharat Electronics Limited for air-to-air and air-to-ground target, tracking, and localization.

Link: DRDO releases tender for detailed feasibility study for Integration of EW Suite on Sukhoi Su-30MKI


PS: And who knows, IAF may have been waiting for both SU57 and Type 30 engine to mature. Now that MRCA has been opened for 5th gen fighters, Russians may enter with SU57M. Lets see...

 

[Hydra]

I think having Rafale and experiencing its SPECTRA would make our Flanker better. Just few months ago DRDO has floated a tender under Project Nav Chakshu which would enhance MKI's EW and survivability by several times over what it has now. Rafale is a 4++ gen fighter while SU30MKI is a 4+ gen fighter. Even if we can achieve 90% of Rafale's EW capability it would bode quite well for us.

Here is an article about Project NavChakshu:



Link: DRDO releases tender for detailed feasibility study for Integration of EW Suite on Sukhoi Su-30MKI


PS: And who knows, IAF may have been waiting for both SU57 and Type 30 engine to mature. Now that MRCA has been opened for 5th gen fighters, Russians may enter with SU57M. Lets see...

Agreed on survivability increase, if you increase to 1 from 0,then its 100% increase.

4+? An aircraft without EW suit cannot be 4+ gen fighter. Its a basic 4th gen fighter.

 

[randomradio]

I think having Rafale and experiencing its SPECTRA would make our Flanker better. Just few months ago DRDO has floated a tender under Project Nav Chakshu which would enhance MKI's EW and survivability by several times over what it has now. Rafale is a 4++ gen fighter while SU30MKI is a 4+ gen fighter. Even if we can achieve 90% of Rafale's EW capability it would bode quite well for us.

Here is an article about Project NavChakshu:



Link: DRDO releases tender for detailed feasibility study for Integration of EW Suite on Sukhoi Su-30MKI


PS: And who knows, IAF may have been waiting for both SU57 and Type 30 engine to mature. Now that MRCA has been opened for 5th gen fighters, Russians may enter with SU57M. Lets see...

The EW suite isn't the problem, the MKI's rather large RCS relative to the J-20 is the problem.

 

[Rajput Lion]

The EW suite isn't the problem, the MKI's rather large RCS relative to the J-20 is the problem.

Never underestimate the importance of EW my friend. Even F22 was defeated by EA18G in BVR fight because of Growler's EW suite. F35 intercepted and jammed F22'S AESA radar using its EW(RWR and jammers).

A bleeding edge EW suite would allow MKI to operate in dense environments. IAF is well aware of their ememy's capabilities and are now preparing MKI to counter it. A nice EW that has active cancellation would help in reducing its RCS woes. HVT has already tweeted that MKI with light air to air load is detected at the same time as a light fighter with full combat load and tanks. So it's not as bad as we think.

I used to think that 4+ gen fighters vs 5th gen fighters fight would be lopsided in the latters' favour. But IIRC, I read a report where Chinese were really impressed with J16's performance against J20.

Also kindly watch this video how a 4+ gen fighter can fight and survive against a 5th gen one:

 

[Hydra]

The EW suite isn't the problem, the MKI's rather large RCS relative to the J-20 is the problem.

Both EW & RCS is problem against J20.

 

[randomradio]

Never underestimate the importance of EW my friend. Even F22 was defeated by EA18G in BVR fight because of Growler's EW suite. F35 intercepted and jammed F22'S AESA radar using its EW(RWR and jammers).

A bleeding edge EW suite would allow MKI to operate in dense environments. IAF is well aware of their ememy's capabilities and are now preparing MKI to counter it. A nice EW that has active cancellation would help in reducing its RCS woes. HVT has already tweeted that MKI with light air to air load is detected at the same time as a light fighter with full combat load and tanks. So it's not as bad as we think.

I used to think that 4+ gen fighters vs 5th gen fighters fight would be lopsided in the latters' favour. But IIRC, I read a report where Chinese were really impressed with J16's performance against J20.

Also kindly watch this video how a 4+ gen fighter can fight and survive against a 5th gen one:

An EW suite is not enough to jump generations. More Rafales are necessary at the minimum for the next 30 years.

Yeah, the MKI's RCS has reduced quite a bit with the application of RAM over the last decade, but it can only compete directly with 4th gen designs, like the ones with PAF. You should ask yourself if 500 AMCAs will defeat 270 MKIs. If the answer is yes, then replace AMCA with J-20 to get the same result.

You forget that the Chinese have advanced EW as well.

The F-22 is also pretty old, it needs upgrades. MKI is even older than that.

 

[Rajput Lion]

An EW suite is not enough to jump generations. More Rafales are necessary at the minimum for the next 30 years.

Yeah, the MKI's RCS has reduced quite a bit with the application of RAM over the last decade, but it can only compete directly with 4th gen designs, like the ones with PAF. You should ask yourself if 500 AMCAs will defeat 270 MKIs. If the answer is yes, then replace AMCA with J-20 to get the same result.

You forget that the Chinese have advanced EW as well.

The F-22 is also pretty old, it needs upgrades. MKI is even older than that.

Chinese don't about anything like SPECTRA. Rafale without SPECTRA would get destroyed by SU35/J16 and J20. Having an bleeding edge advance EW system like it and to develop its analogue for our other fighters is going to bode quite well for our future even against advance threats.

 

[Arpuism]

IN has already said that TEDBF meets all of its fifth generation requirements. If IAF wants 5th gen tech early than No Rafale, Eurofighter or any other MMRCA candidate can do justice coz by structural design they all are 4th gen. It would be better that IAF should invest in AF variant of TEDBF with:-
1) avionics like GaN based genx radar & EW of AMCA
2) RAM coating of AMCA and that can serve as 5- gen fighter.
3) MUMT like CATS & Ghatak
TEDBF has frontal stealth structurally and with advance avionics, weapons & MUMT, its AF variant will be better suited to face improved variant of J 20 than any MMRCA candidate or even Su 57.

However, I would like the final design of TEDBF to incorporate better rear stealth structurally like this one has:-

 

[Jersey27]

AESA makes all the difference. Even PESA is fine, like the Irbis-E, but the MKI's PESA is ancient.

Among heavies, the US, Chinese and Russians take the top 3 spots by default. The Su-35 is 30-40% superior to the F-15 of any make.

India was supposed to be operating the Su-57 by now, as per the original plan, alongside about 100+ MKIs upgraded with AESA. Things fell apart, partly thanks to the US/Russia combine, mostly thanks to India being broke. The other countries you listed have more money to spend than we do, so their procurements and upgrades are quicker.

In about 10-15 years, it will be difficult for even the Americans to compete with India financially. So things will begin changing drastically after that point, hence the American desperation to shamelessly cling to India.

More like 25-30 years.

 

[randomradio]

More like 25-30 years.

10-15 years to get started, 10-15 years to see the results.

Between 2030 and 2035, we will be able to function at the same level as the top 3. Post that, of course, it's gonna take 5-10 years to get all that stuff operational. Like buying 20 destroyers at the same time, or placing a 1000 jet order and inducting 100-150 every year etc.

We can do all that even today, but that will come at the cost of development. The top 3 don't have to worry about that. So it's 10-15 years for us to not worry about that either, we will be upwards of a $10T economy by then.

The Americans can't compete because we will still have high growth to make up for high defence expenditure, they can't do that.

 

[Rajput Lion]

In the latest news, IAF has deployed SU30 in Jammu Air Force Station to counter PAF and PLAAF.

Link: In a first, IAF to operate Sukhoi Su-30 from Jammu Air Force station to counter Pak, China


I think they should order 2 more squadrons of Tejas Mk1A to be deployed in these high threat frontline airbases. Why put our premium air dominance fighters at such forward bases as interceptors?

Tejas MK1A is the perfect Mig 21 replacement not MKI, IMO.

 

[Hydra]

In the latest news, IAF has deployed SU30 in Jammu Air Force Station to counter PAF and PLAAF.

Link: In a first, IAF to operate Sukhoi Su-30 from Jammu Air Force station to counter Pak, China


I think they should order 2 more squadrons of Tejas Mk1A to be deployed in these high threat frontline airbases. Why put our premium air dominance fighters at such forward bases as interceptors?

Tejas MK1A is the perfect Mig 21 replacement not MKI, IMO.

Because MK1 is a more technologically superior aircraft than MKI.

 

[marich01]

This is one interesting thing to find , apparently this company is venturing out on their own. @Ashwin @Ankit Kumar

https://twitter.com/x/status/1583448341232644096

https://twitter.com/x/status/1583473440618860546

 

[Rajput Lion]

There is no plane flying that can match its looks. Still the beauty queen after so many years of serving the IAF. Practicing with Rafale and Eurofighter at exercise Pitch Black it seems:

Link:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1584635799152525312

PS: Even if the Chinese are trying to hire French and British pilots to train their AF, they still can't match the real time experience IAF has. This would be an important and decisive factor when SU30MKIs and Rafale would meet J20, J16 & J10 over the Himalayas in the next war, IMO.