That's a different topic altogether. I was referring to what's in our inventory not future procurements.
Sukhoi Su-30MKI
- Thread starter Ashwin
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our means whose? HAL? then I have to go thru old meetings again, normally I just take a look & then forget everything later
Currently they have about 6 more left, hence new RFP for additional engines perhaps. This is usually small part of revenue, so not often looked upon esp the recent big orders in past year took the light. But generally per year numbers they mentioned, that's about on par with their capacity & ROH of su30 that happen.
Ours meant IAF. Currently that amounts to 260 MKIs & 520 working engines with a finite amount as spare engines of which 240 have been contracted & 40-6 delivered with the rest to be delivered next yr.our means whose? HAL? then I have to go thru old meetings again, normally I just take a look & then forget everything later
Currently they have about 6 more left, hence new RFP for additional engines perhaps. This is usually small part of revenue, so not often looked upon esp the recent big orders in past year took the light.
Probably those 6 numbers that are left now, new deal should be finalised before March given aon & clearance is there. At a stretch HAL does 20-30 per year max.
If that's the case , how come the conversation transcripts are recording delivery of 200 nos next yr & 40 this yr including 6 to be delivered.
probably keeps in inventory, of which currently 6 left? ROH they did not specify how much work need engine overhaul
The AL-31FPs are for the MKIs. The MKI eats through engines, so the numbers are not surprising.
It's still unclear if the MLUs will get a new engine, but the 117S will cut engine requirement by half. Upgrading to this engine will mean the same engine can be used until the jet is retired.
I think IAF have a good balance of their own in terms of operational parameters which they do not want to disturb by going for the promise of an uprated engine. They are not shy of asking for upgrades, sometimes even during an existing order realisation, like with rafale & one other case. But in case of al-41 I think it will be a pass. Rus have not shown their engine works as promised. So why disturb the current balance , better to chew through existing engines order. MLU with al-41 will create extra work burden, training on the engine for the support crew, pilot everyone.
The part that really bothers me is why the 12 shortfall jets are not cleared for procuring, and a sound plan that can offer viable solution as alternative to both the MRFA & su30 performance level they are used. There should be clear cut objective: Ok we have at least 6 sqn worth of shortfall besides all current running programs, these 6 sqn should be twin engine frontline jets with latest avionics etc. We will not entertain any other offer be it modern single engine multiroles like gripen/F21, or heavy category like F15, or under-performer like mig35/su35. Either mrfa rafale class or get a 4.5 gen twin engine program going on our own. Fitting amca mk1 into that role will be a waste of capability.
The part that really bothers me is why the 12 shortfall jets are not cleared for procuring, and a sound plan that can offer viable solution as alternative to both the MRFA & su30 performance level they are used. There should be clear cut objective: Ok we have at least 6 sqn worth of shortfall besides all current running programs, these 6 sqn should be twin engine frontline jets with latest avionics etc. We will not entertain any other offer be it modern single engine multiroles like gripen/F21, or heavy category like F15, or under-performer like mig35/su35. Either mrfa rafale class or get a 4.5 gen twin engine program going on our own. Fitting amca mk1 into that role will be a waste of capability.
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Al-41F-1S has FADEC and definite operational advantages over AL-31FP. Its life is also 4000 hours. MKI's kinematic performance would improve by leaps and bound. Maybe, with light air to air load, it could also hold supersonic speeds without afterburner. It can also lift with more load thanks to more powerful engines. The new engine would also help power more powerful radar, EW suite and plethora of other electronics.
MKI MLU is incomplete without engine swap/upgrade. 'Nuff said.
Wasn't there a program to improve the operational life of the AL-31FP engines?
There is Project Ganga. But whether it is to improve AL-31FP or design a whole new engine in 130kn class is not very clear.
Maybe @marich01 can help!
Yes I do not disagree with the obvious positives, I am just skeptical about whether IAF would be bothered with the extra work rather than a tried & tested method that they are used to, especially at a time when they are on high alert. In a more relaxed border situation perhaps yes, as of now I doubt they will like to change their rhythm. We can see RFP HAL received is of older engines, so the new engine if its on offer by Rus again that will go thru demonstration again.
Russians are going to retrofit AL-41F-1S into their Su-30SM. In fact one plane has been flying for quite some time with the new engine for testing. It will take them around December 2023 to fully certify the engine across entire flight envelope of the plane.
Maybe, Russians allow us to carry on with indigenous MKI upgrade if we decide to put this engine. A sort of bargain. Lets see what happens in future!
AL-31 is a cash cow for HAL because of the low MTBO. The total projected requirement was something like ~950.
True, ROH is their big revenue generator, investors push them on its figure regularly, which is why they lack in the OEM mentality a bit. Unless they separate their OEM business tejas & amca later & run that like how usa/eu OEM do they will never get rid of that mentality which will hamper their jet export ambition in future despite aggressive marketing. This is my view.
As per some recent reports, HAL, BEL and Midhani are working on changing some components of AL-31FP engines which increases the life of the engine and also increases its performance. They have even reached out to the Russians to allow certification of these components so that a fleet wide upgrade could be done.
Apparently, Russians are not happy. They are pushing for their own AL-41F-1S engine swap offer.
Any idea what's the life span of the AL-31FP as compared to the AL-41F-1S engine & what's the proposed increase in the life span of the former going to be like by changing those components ?
Russians promised 2000 hours engine life and TBO at 500 hours. AL-41F-1S apparently improves both by 2 to 2.5 times.
Here is a good article about the difference between these two engines:
"The 117S engine is a major upgrade of the AL-31F and has a thrust of 14.5 tonnes, which exceeds the figures of the basic engine by 2 tonnes. It mounts the fan with a 3 % larger diameter (932 mm over 905 mm), advanced high- and low-pressure turbines and all-new digital control system. A provision has been made for using the thrust vector control nozzle similar to that of the AL-31FP. The upgrade has resulted in thrust hiking by 16 % to 14,500 kgf (kN) in afterburner mode and totaling 8,800 kg in the maximal non-after burning mode. Compared to the current AL-31F, the new engine’s service life will increase by 2–2.7 times, with the time between overhauls increasing from 500 hours to 1,000 hours, time before first overhaul standing at 1,500 hours and assigned life spiking from 1,500 hours to 4,000 hours"
Source: NPO Saturn finishes endurance tests for S-117 Engine meant for SU-35 | Frontier India Defence & Strategic News Service
This current combined effort by HAL, BEL and MIDHANI could be part of much secretive 'Project Ganga' to improve AL-31FP's service life(&TBO), reduce its maintenance and maybe even increase its power to 130KN.
If our scientists can achieve the above, then no need for a new engine, IMO. I already proved that empty weight of MKI(MKM) is sub 18 tonnes. Now with modern electronics and systems in the MLU, further weight reduction shall be achieved. So maybe even upgraded and uprated AL-31FP may achieve the same results as AL-41F-1S.
But a lot of work seems to happen behind the curtain about future roadmap of MKI upgrade.
And it's 2022
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