Upgraded MKIs will be in use for 20-25 years, depending on the replacement.
So whatever hardware they are upgraded with, they will use it until retirement.
Sukhoi Su-30MKI
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
Upgraded MKIs will be in use for 20-25 years, depending on the replacement.
So whatever hardware they are upgraded with, they will use it until retirement.
The point of MLU is to make it competent against future threats, especially VLO.
MKI is the ONLY operational plane that has defeated 4/5 AMRAAMs fired towards it. That is unheard of performance both by the pilot and the plane(kinematics + jamming).
With further cutting edge EW and with reduction of weight(due to lighter avionics and hopefully CFC skin), its kinematic plus jamming abilities would see a quantum jump(hopefully new powerful engines too).
The threat of RF guided missiles would reduce even further. The threat today and tomorrow would be IIR seeker or future dual seeker(RF + IIR) seeker missiles(like AtA version of Israeli Stunner). MKI needs a good MAWS and DIRCM to effectively defeat these.
So far, ONLY plane in the world operational with DIRCM is Su-57. And only plane we plan to equip with DIRCM is going to be AMCA(and may be TEDBF).
So, I think MKI MLU shall provide it with much better capabilities both offensive and defensive. If we can add a cutting edge MAWS along with LWR, its survivability will increase several times over now.
.....with DIRCM it shall become immune against even IIR missiles(if we decide to add it in MLU as well).
Upgraded MKIs won't be a real match for the J-20. Drones and EW may help bridge the gap, but the J-20 has way better physical characteristics.
Two rabid optimists disagreeing with each other especially when one is a self confessed fanboy of another should be interesting to watch.
If the only USP of the J-20 is it's strealth then that's not much to go by even 5 yrs down the line. Of course the notion that we replace the skin of the MKI along with select parts to RM coated RF absorbent CFC is even more far fetched for it's no more a deep upgrade but it's akin to constructing a new variant of the old FA.
However, The budget for upgrading 80 odd MKIs is reportedly 4 billion USD which works out to 50 million USD. Take this information with a pinch of salt as we may be aware of the numbers but the budget isn't out as of now & we aren't even sure if the purported budget of 4 billion USD is only for 80 odd aircraft or the full complement of the MKIs or as previous reports more than 4-5 yrs old suggested it could be for anywhere between 140-220 nos.
Let's see what happens.
If the only USP of the J-20 is it's strealth then that's not much to go by even 5 yrs down the line. Of course the notion that we replace the skin of the MKI along with select parts to RM coated RF absorbent CFC is even more far fetched for it's no more a deep upgrade but it's akin to constructing a new variant of the old FA.
However, The budget for upgrading 80 odd MKIs is reportedly 4 billion USD which works out to 50 million USD. Take this information with a pinch of salt as we may be aware of the numbers but the budget isn't out as of now & we aren't even sure if the purported budget of 4 billion USD is only for 80 odd aircraft or the full complement of the MKIs or as previous reports more than 4-5 yrs old suggested it could be for anywhere between 140-220 nos.
Let's see what happens.
According to some reports Chinese were frustrated when they practiced J-20 vs J-16 because the kill ratio wasn't like they were expecting. J-16 held up much better thanks to its AESA radar, QWIP IRST and EW.
Future variants of J-20 with WS-15 definitely should have huge kinematic advantage, that's why MKI with more powerful engines is a must.
After upgrade, MKI will definitely be capable of fighting J-20, though dominating it is a totally different outcome and very difficult to achieve.
Lol.
What if I told you that we changed the wings of Mig-21 and Mig-29 during MLU from metal to CFC. It's not far fetched at all.
Hope for the best. Because all our future fighters are delayed. If MKI MLU with the aforementioned capabilities comes online soon, then along with more Rafale, we shall have a fighting chance with PLAAF. Otherwise we are going to get screwed.
Walking out of FGFA program was such a big mistake. With even 40-50 FGFA's, tag teamed with Rafale/MKI would be good enough to foil Chinese VLO threat, but
People need to understand this that Su-30MKI is not just a plane but it's a whole program with long term future upgrade road-map. It was supposed to be like that from its very inception.
The plan to replace the metallic parts with CFC has existed since long. @_Anonymous_ kindly take a look:
www.key.aero
The plan to replace the metallic parts with CFC has existed since long. @_Anonymous_ kindly take a look:
Su-30MKI Set To Evolve Further
Su-30MKI Set To Evolve Further By Prasun K. Sengupta FORCE - Feburary-2005
Point taken but for starters this article is 18 yrs old . Besides as per this article the skin was to have been replaced a long time back . Incidentally that figure of 360-375 MKIs also came from PKS courtesy Trishul way back in 2011-12 when he started his blog which was corroborated then by contemporary Russian publications online & later as I discovered by Russian publications dtd around 2004-5.People need to understand this that Su-30MKI is not just a plane but it's a whole program with long term future upgrade road-map. It was supposed to be like that from its very inception.
The plan to replace the metallic parts with CFC has existed since long. @_Anonymous_ kindly take a look:
Su-30MKI Set To Evolve Further
Su-30MKI Set To Evolve Further By Prasun K. Sengupta FORCE - Feburary-2005
Btw - is that forum still active ? Recall visiting it last in 2017 or thereabouts. How did you come across this article ?
There's nothing believable about the J-20 coming out of China yet.
The J-16 can't compete with the J-20 in any case. Just having avionics isn't enough when other physical characteristics are bad, like RCS, fuel load, engine thrust etc.
If you want your aircraft to compete with the J-20, first match physical characteristics, then the avionics. Or you can only play defence at best.
What makes you think that some part of that article might not even have taken place
.Anyways, the problem is Russian permission. Changing entire skin and spars with CFC would make the plane much lighter thus alter the CoG and CoP as I previously wrote. Then, you need all new FBW.
Thus, it was saved for MLU, which now should take place.
MKI was too heavy on IAF OpEX. So they decided no more than 272.
No, dead.
I may be new to this forum, but not new to defence matters
There are many insiders who have given very accurate information about J-20. It's their first stealth jet thus they are still developing tactics. Many reports have come out about their "Golden Helmet" exercises.
J-16 won their apex exercise few years back above every plane:
"J-16 unit wins Golden Helmet of Chinese Air Force for the first time
-
By CNAS
- 2 years Ago
The “Golden Helmet”, along with the “Red Sword”, “Blue Shield” and “Golden Dart”, are known as the four major military training brands of the Chinese Air Force. The core content of the competition is air combat confrontation. At the end of each year, top pilots from the five theaters of the PLA gather in the northwest desert to compete for the single-digit awards of “Golden Helmet”, which is considered the highest honor for fighter pilots in the Chinese Air Force.
The J-16 is a new generation of twin-engine, two-seat multipurpose fighter produced by Shenyang Aviation Company, which is a new type of fighter with “third-and-a-half generation” characteristics based on the J-11 series of fighters, with a substantial increase in combat effectiveness over the J-11 and J-11B/BS."
Link: J-16 unit wins Golden Helmet of Chinese Air Force for the first time
RCS: MKI MLU shall take care of this if we decide to upgrade its metallic skin with CFC. EW shall reduce it further.
Fuel Load?? MKI already has 9.6+ tonnes of internal max fuel load. How much do you want?
Engine thrust: New engines are a must, I agree.
You always say that we should listen to our Forces' opinion first and foremost. Well BS Dhanoa sir categorically said few years back that both MKI and Rafale can fight J-20. In fact, he also said that MKI tracked J-20 over Tibet.
After MLU, MKI will have everything to take on any fighter and once again be the apex predator(raptor) of the sky.
There are many insiders who have given very accurate information about J-20. It's their first stealth jet thus they are still developing tactics. Many reports have come out about their "Golden Helmet" exercises.
J-16 won their apex exercise few years back above every plane:
"J-16 unit wins Golden Helmet of Chinese Air Force for the first time
The Western Theater Air Force of China released an article on March 11, reporting that two pilots from a brigade of the theater won the “Golden Helmet”, which is the first news that J-16 fighter jets have won the “Gold Helmet” title in the third and half generation fighter group.
- 2 years Ago
The “Golden Helmet”, along with the “Red Sword”, “Blue Shield” and “Golden Dart”, are known as the four major military training brands of the Chinese Air Force. The core content of the competition is air combat confrontation. At the end of each year, top pilots from the five theaters of the PLA gather in the northwest desert to compete for the single-digit awards of “Golden Helmet”, which is considered the highest honor for fighter pilots in the Chinese Air Force.
The J-16 is a new generation of twin-engine, two-seat multipurpose fighter produced by Shenyang Aviation Company, which is a new type of fighter with “third-and-a-half generation” characteristics based on the J-11 series of fighters, with a substantial increase in combat effectiveness over the J-11 and J-11B/BS."
Link: J-16 unit wins Golden Helmet of Chinese Air Force for the first time
Probably a problem with the pilot. It depends on the situation, the F-22 has also been "killed" by older jets.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.china-arms.com/2021/03/j16-golden-helmet-first-time/amp/
MKI MLU can't reduce the aircraft's RCS to the level necessary. The MKI's EA is also pod-based, it won't give the jet stealth capabilities. You are overestimating the composites upgrade. It's not going to change the general characteristics of the jet.
The fuel load isn't impressive for such a jet. The Su-35 has 11.5T for example.
His arguments were invalid, like the current air chief said about the Tu-160.
His argument about canards is incorrect. And the J-20 is still in development so it doesn't yet have supercruise, but will get it long before the first MKI squadron finishes MLU.
From PoV of fighter jet, the MKI cannot match with the J-20. The only thing that matters is if the MKI can defeat missiles fired at it. If it can, then there's a chance of survival, but the J-20 will still have a generation advantage with stealth and supercruise. Many MKIs will be lost to just kill 1 J-20 even then.
I knew it . This is conforming to the universal truism - the only way to confront an extremist is to get a super extremist viz Al Qaeda / Afghan Taliban vs ISIS , Akali Dal vs Bhindranwale , etc .
Similarly , the only way you get an optimist to acknowledge reality is to get him confronted by a super optimist . I tell you if we have more of this Rajput Lion here , the metamorphosis of resident optimist to resident realist will be completed. Somehow this makes me depressed . @Sathya ; @Bali78
Similarly , the only way you get an optimist to acknowledge reality is to get him confronted by a super optimist . I tell you if we have more of this Rajput Lion here , the metamorphosis of resident optimist to resident realist will be completed. Somehow this makes me depressed . @Sathya ; @Bali78
How idiotic. These are the reasons why I used to say getting more MKIs is pointless. Never mind 350, even 270 is too much.
190 was the most optimum number. Numbers climbed up to 230 and then to 270 'cause MMRCA got delayed. The IAF would have been better served by an emergency purchase of 54 Mirage 2000 Mk2s over 80 new MKIs. Would have been cheaper too.
The MKI can fight the J-20 only with the help of Rafale. The Rafale will have to move close and use its sensors to cue the MKI's weapons in air combat. Alternatively, ISR and AEW drones can also provide the MKI with targets, but that's a long ways away.
MKIs numbers are relevant only if its survivability is very low, then we need enough numbers to make up for losses over the duration of the war, but that makes it even more pointless.
As per the USAF, even NGAD is not enough. Whereas the MKI is just an upgrade over the F-15C/E. The irony of Great Expectations.
190 was the most optimum number. Numbers climbed up to 230 and then to 270 'cause MMRCA got delayed. The IAF would have been better served by an emergency purchase of 54 Mirage 2000 Mk2s over 80 new MKIs. Would have been cheaper too.
The MKI can fight the J-20 only with the help of Rafale. The Rafale will have to move close and use its sensors to cue the MKI's weapons in air combat. Alternatively, ISR and AEW drones can also provide the MKI with targets, but that's a long ways away.
MKIs numbers are relevant only if its survivability is very low, then we need enough numbers to make up for losses over the duration of the war, but that makes it even more pointless.
As per the USAF, even NGAD is not enough. Whereas the MKI is just an upgrade over the F-15C/E. The irony of Great Expectations.
There are many more reports of J-16 achieving mutual kill vs J-20.
If they use the new CFC which has been developed for AMCA by replacing the metallic skin, then there would be drastic drop in MKI's RCS. It won't become stealth, but good enough to blow J-20 out of the sky.
MKI will never become "stealth" no matter what. But carrying EW/Jamming pods outside has its advantages too. That's why E/A-18G and J-16D carry them outside.
Only plane that has defeated F-22 in BVR is also E/A-18G and it carries its EW pods outside too.
If they change all the spars and skins then it would be drastic.
Even with normal fuel load of 5.2 tonnes, MKI can stay on station for hours. With 10 tonne internal, its endurance is already insane. MKI MLU will also feature wet hard-points, so it will carry drop tanks as well. It is/will be enough, I would assume.
He said it when he was active chief of IAF that MKI detected and tracked J-20 over Tibet. IAF chief's statement should be respected, IMO.
Supercruise isn't be all and end all. MKI's supersonic kinematic persistence is incredible at high altitudes. With new engines, it shall also supercruise.
IAF knows what J-20 is capable of. We have been following that jet for long. MKI MLU is going to see features incorporated that will allow MKI to fight with J-20. Otherwise, there is no point of upgrading.
Regarding adding more Flanker numbers. Well, it isn't stupid to add more because if it is then Chinese must be fools, which they clearly aren't. They have already added over 250 J-16s according to a recent report. They could also have added more J-10s. But they are betting big on both J-20 and J-16 combo to achieve air dominance.
Answered above.
There is one minor correction here. The "current" MKI can fight J-20 with the help of Rafale.
MKI MLU will have both Active(more powerful AESA radar) and passive(QWIP based dual band IRST) sensors better than Rafale plus comparable EW suite.
If you're saying that current Rafale can come close to J-20 and fight it then future MKI MLU should too.
If MKI MLU can't then Rafale won't either.
Attrition replacement is paramount in a long war. Numbers matter too.
WTF. NGAD is going to blow J-20 out of the sky. In fact, Chinese are so worried of NGAD that their 6th gen has already taken shape to counter NGAD.
Looking at how Chinese are betting big on J-16 and J-20 combo, it would be foolish of us to give up on MKI.
BTW, F-15 pilot 'Pako' said that they have found ways to defeat 5th gen planes in training. So, 4++ gen is not as hopeless as it is being conveyed.
Here is the image of Chinese NGAD rival:
Source: China offers further clues about plans for sixth-generation fighter
Source: China offers further clues about plans for sixth-generation fighter
A lot of the news coming out of China is propaganda. Simply based on specs, the MKI is not a match. Neither is the J-16.
EW pods won't help a lot when the enemy jet has significantly superior stealth, kinematic and electronic characterisitcs. Aircraft like Growler and J-16D are meant for SEAD/DEAD, not air combat.
I can't stress this enough, 20-40 J-20s can wipe out our entire MKI fleet. There's no two ways about this. The only way MKI can fight back is if there's an equally capable aircraft protecting it, and we have the Rafale. Upgrading the MKI's avionics doesn't change this reality, all it does is improves its chances a bit more. If the MKI was enough to defeat the J-20, then it's enough to defeat the NGAD too. That's how pointless this argument is.
The air chief wasn't being completely honest, he was speculating. He basically said since the J-20 has canards, it can be caught on radar, that's plain wrong.
MKI's fuel load was impressive when it started off, now it's normal. Its endurance can't compete with next gen jets. For example, Rafale has 2-2.5 times the endurance from an operational PoV. Su-57 has at least 5-6 times more. The J-20 will have the same advantage. EFTs will enhance that a little bit, but it will just be somewhat above the Su-35, at least enough to compete with the Rafale.
The Chinese have a bare minimum number of Flankers. They have 4 major enemies (or directions) to deal with, and they have 50 jets against each with 50 in reserve.
The Chinese are expected to have their 6th gen operational at the same time or even earlier than the NGAD.
Just because a fighter is tagged with a certain role it doesn't mean it can't perform air to air. F-18G is still an F-18 and will be able to jam enemy fighters better than any 4th gen fighter currently flying.