Sukhoi Su-30MKI

[randomradio]

Although there exists clearances for 12 Su30MKI, people do know (coming to their senses) that the more sensible thing to do is either to drop that procurement and focus on upgrade, or if it's necessary to restart the Nashik line, do it for more than just 1 year. IAF has a good CAPEX this year and payments for Rafale are done. Let's see what they decide upon.

Additional MK1A (or Mk1B as few call it) depends upon how well HAL and ADA deliver on their promises. I haven't seen the twin seater deliveries...

Rumour mill says they are specialist jets, for either ISR, SEAD/DEAD or both and not attrition replacements. Although I think they are attrition replacements, and the contract entails something extra, like a new tech for some or all MKIs. In either case, the 12 jets are necessary even if at the minimum it will bring squadrons back to full strength.

 

[randomradio]

J-20 killing 4+ gen jets 17:0 isn't surprising, but J-16 putting up a fight against J-20 is.

Even T-45 has killed F-22s, it depends on the situation.

BVR air combat is a very complicated affair. Training and tactics are important too. MKI is a different beast from all these Chinese Flankers.

MKI MLU should also focus on reducing its RCS. That along with next gen jamming pods and towed decoys, MKI will be much more survival against J-20 and other 5th gen fighters.

MKI MLU should bring it at par. But of course, in some areas Rafale will always be ahead. But post MLU, MKI shall surpass it in plenty of areas as well.

Yes with deep upgrade. It won't dominate but shall definitely be able to fight them.

I support him too.

MKI dominated Eurofighter in BVR. F-15C/E/EX is no match for our MKI.

1 on 1 in WVR fight, J-20 is dead meat against MKI. Killing enemy jets 100kms away is not possible against a peer level enemy. Upgraded MKI will force J-20 to come close as it should deny long range BVR shots with better RWR and supportive Jamming.

In a dense environment, fight will be much closer than we expect.

No myth at all. All these are either X-planes or concept. In production J-20 is the only stealth plane with canards. Russian LEVCON solution for high alpha/maneuverability is the best one I think.

Yes, but J-20 isn't as IAF chief said.

Just in case, as 10 tonne internal fuel is more than enough. With MLU we will improve the engine too which shall increase fuel efficiency and enhance endurance.

It is relevant because J-16 is an integral part of Chinese air doctrine. It is the only plane that can fire PL-XX or PL-21. A missile with over 500 kms range. Their entire BVR air dominance strategy is based upon combo of J-20 and J-16.

With deep upgrade, of course.

LCA MK2 will be our J-10. Chinese are adding more J-16s despite having J-10. So MKI is still very important element of our air dominance.

With MLU, it will continue to act as IAF's backbone well into the next decade.

Anyways, since we're going in circles, so lets end this debate here

Even the IAF doesn't believe that much in the MKI. But yeah, no point going in circles.

 

[randomradio]

Hello. I have some question about the Su30mki procurement, but some of the sources I have found are in Indi and I'm stuck in my research.

Do you have some sources information about the cost of this program since the begining ? And because it have started in 1996, there is also the inflation to take in consideration.

We don't know the actual costs, but overall expenditure as of 2012 was $12B as per the govt, it may have included opex too. By that time, all MKIs operational today were contracted already.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

Rumour mill says they are specialist jets, for either ISR, SEAD/DEAD or both and not attrition replacements. Although I think they are attrition replacements, and the contract entails something extra, like a new tech for some or all MKIs. In either case, the 12 jets are necessary even if at the minimum it will bring squadrons back to full strength.

Necessary, I agree to that.

But two questions are there.
1. Question on which configuration IAF wants them. Does the current version work? Or a version with interim upgrade features which may feature other stuff like engine or radar upgrade at a later date? This needs to be decided upon quickly. Because the sensible thing to do is revive the line asap. It has been idle for a while now apart from maybe overhauling it does.

2. Question for the planners. Although the IAF acknowledges that restarting the line and just for a year is a costly affair, the IAF really wants 50 more Rafales instead of 30-50 more flankers. Will the planners agree to IAF view point? Becoz a section and HAL wants a larger multi year contract. Their arguments are that it will bring down the fixed costs per unit and will help in arresting the falling numbers.

Now at this moment my only personal opinion is that whatever they want, should be decided immediately. We don't exactly have a lot of time.

 

[randomradio]

But MKI is having superior wvr capabilities, cobr manuer,mass pleasing acrobatics. @Rajput Lion

It's always in the specifics. It's always more complex than people are assuming because everything is connected. BVR, WVR, dog fighting, strike, they are all small parts of the whole.

So don't fall for clownish baits like Ignorants tries with his strawman arguments. If that's what he got from my posts, then he is simply overestimating himself. No one can teach an old dog new tricks, like critical thinking.

A jet can be superior in one area, but inferior in another, and alternate capabilities that make up for deficiencies. The Rafale is the best example of that.

The MKI has superior flight characteristics compared to the F-15C, but the F-15C has received better upgrades for BVR, the MKI is yet to match the AESA+AIM-120D combo for example. But with Derby ER/Astra Mk2 and MKI MLU, it will surpass the F-15C, but by then the C would have been retired. Then the F-15EX would surpass the MKI MLU with their upcoming BVR weapons, unless we match or surpass that with Astra 3. This is a game of tug of war that never ends. Every few years, an upgrade gives a jet of the same generation an advantage.

If you go back to the mid-90s, nothing except the F-22 and maybe the Typhoon was expected to match the MKI. To the IAF, it didn't matter if these two jets were better, we only wanted dominance in the IOR, where neither jet operated. There were no F-15s in the IOR either. The MKI with its PESA + R-77 combo was unmatched by any existing 4th gen jet, even the F-15C, 'cause of its older radar. The USAF remedied that with AESA + AIM-120C2 with a 105Km range by 2002. Then the range expanded to 120Km with the C7 and 160-180Km with D by 2014. So, while the MKI was stuck with the old 80Km R-77 over the last 20 years, the Americans brought in advanced missiles every few years. This is the reason the F-15C has stayed ahead of the curve in BVR.

Unfortunately, our decision-making has been really slow over the last many years. While the US introduced the AIM-120D in 2014, and the PLAAF, the PL-15C in 2016, the IAF wasted time fruitlessly chasing after the Meteor since 2014 or so. Had they been realistic enough to introduce Derby ER from day 1, we would have received these missiles by 2018 or 2019 and surpassed the D and somewhat matched the PL-15C. This would have given us capabilities superior to the F-15 in BVR until 2024 or so, until the introduction of the AIM-260.

Today, the MKI has a weapon that's at best around the same level as what the F-15 had in 2006. During Balakot, the MKI had a weapon that was at best a match to what the F-15 had in 1998. The MKI is the better jet but with a significantly inferior weapon.

So it's just a matter of development failure on part of the Russians and poor decisions on part of the Indians.

At this moment, assuming it's still without the Derby ER, the MKI is inferior in BVR to the PAF's J-10C with its PL-15. In fact, the J-10C can even defeat the F-15C. That's how badly the IAF have screwed up the MKI program. The Americans have less to worry because they have the F-22, and they are retiring all their F-15Cs in Japan this year. And we got lucky that the Modi govt remedied the situation by putting itself at risk importing the Rafales, if not we would have been in a very bad situation today.

 

[randomradio]

Super sukhoi 30 Mki should proceed to towards Mini Awacs + team up with CATS (UAVs UCAVs loitering munitions) and fight from distance along LAC until Amca gets ready..

Can do this Su 30 mki Upgrade + CATS within next 5 years?

CATS Warrior can't do what you think. It's just a weapons mule. The fighter is still more important.

Even with drones like Ghatak or FUFA, the fighter will still be more important. And even once NGAD and FCAS come into being, the fighter will still be more important than the accompanying drones.

Why? 'Cause as long as a weapon deployed has kinetic energy, your only options are to either be able to reduce the energy to zero by converting it to harmless amounts of heat or evade it. Tanks and bunkers emphasise heavily on the former and soldiers and fighters focus on the latter. It's basic physics. The point of drones is to spend less money on it, so we can afford its loss, the fighter is still the main enabler.

If you are in an MKI and are depending on the CATS Warrior to fight a J-20, then the Warrior better be a high-flying stealth supercruiser with at least 4 AAMs and equal amounts of endurance to the MKI/J-20, and can still continue fighting even after the MKI has been shot down, meaning it must have avionics on par with the J-20, and the ability to fly autonomously, meaning it must be better than the MKI by default. That's a tall ask from a drone that's not even supersonic and has no real avionics of its own.

The Warrior is just a weapons mule, at best it can operate a bit closer to a SAM site than the LCA, so it can deploy weapons more reliably while keeping the LCA safe. It's not meant to fight the J-10, J-16 or J-20.

What the Warrior is useful for is to distract the J-20 by presenting itself as a target while allowing the MKI to escape, 'cause the J-20 will have to expend its weapons load on the handful of drones flying towards it. Of course, it won't work as well if the J-20 also has accompanying drones with AAMs. In any case the drones will die first.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Hmm. Critical thinking! If critical thinking is what resulted in the equation I gave in #2144 based on RST's analysis all this while, then I'm better off without it. Anybody desiring evidence of this critical thinking need look no further than the last 3-4 pages on this thread & ditto for the thread on F-35 & F-22.

But that's what veterans here have seen & experienced over the years being subjected to RST's critical thinking laden posts that he spins yarns masquerading as facts so complex that he often trips himself on those very explanations he provides to buttress his arguments. Hence that equation I provided is good evidence for the same.

BTW - I've also thrown the gauntlet for what could or should constitute an alternative to a workable plan given our usual constraints I proposed the IAF adopts to counter PLAAF. As usual it goes unanswered. Requires additional critical thinking I reckon. Unfortunately, We know what follows then.

 

[Arpuism]

This is 2023
A)How many Tejas MK2 had made so far?
B)Did any one had produced any modern 4+ gen fighter with in 5 years of time?
C) what all are the technology Tejas MK2 gonna poses which make an aircraft on par with Rafale?

As I said you wont be able to comprehend this stuff. Tejas mk2 will have all the technologies that Rafale F4 could have and even more like MUMT. I am not a dalal to go overboard defending any platform even to extend of exaggerating. So better you do study on your own.

 

[Hydra]

As I said you wont be able to comprehend this stuff. Tejas mk2 will have all the technologies that Rafale F4 could have and even more like MUMT. I am not a dalal to go overboard defending any platform even to extend of exaggerating. So better you do study on your own.

Its like someone telling that he is on par with sir Issac Newton when comes to IQ, but if ask hime to prove he will say bleh bleh.

Man i just ask u what all re the technologies MK2 gonna have which Rafale F4 posses, a simple query u unable to answer and start calling me dalaal.

 

[Arpuism]

Its like someone telling that he is on par with sir Issac Newton when comes to IQ, but if ask hime to prove he will say bleh bleh.

Man i just ask u what all re the technologies MK2 gonna have which Rafale F4 posses, a simple query u unable to answer and start calling me dalaal.

I just told you to go and find the answer to that yourself. And if you cant do that then stop worrying about things you cant understand.
Just for your help, we wont have to ask for enhancements specific to our requirements in Tejas mk 2 and it will be available with our indigenous weapons that are under development.

 

[Hydra]

I just told you to go and find the answer to that yourself. And if you cant do that then stop worrying about things you cant understand.

This is a defense forum, not a university. You are supposed to provide substantiating documents evidence etc.
You are just telling that MK2 will be superior to Rafale F4,based on what?

Just for your help, we wont have to ask for enhancements specific to our requirements in Tejas mk 2 and it will be available with our indigenous weapons that are under development.

What sort of none sense you are talking. MK2 is designing based on our requirment, by an indian agency in India. You are expecting india to ask india specific enhancement on an indian product?

 

[Arpuism]

This is a defense forum, not a university. You are supposed to provide substantiating documents evidence etc.
You are just telling that MK2 will be superior to Rafale F4,based on what?

What evidence have you provided for your claims?? Whatever I have said is not a secret it’s available in open platform and not difficult to search.

 

[Hydra]

Whatever I have said is not a secret it’s available in open platform and not difficult to search.

Then why don't you quote that?

What evidence have you provided for your claims??

What you need?

 

[Arpuism]

Then why don't you quote that?

Why should I? Do some efforts yourself so that atleast you gain some knowledge.

What you need?

I dnt need anything for your fantasies.

 

[Hydra]

Why should I? Do some efforts yourself so that atleast you gain some knowledge.

I dnt need anything for your fantasies.

So you have nothing but, "i said so" fallacy. Dont know anything about our capabilities, but MK2 will be superior to Rafale F4. Ignorant

 

[RASALGHUL]

So you have nothing but, "i said so" fallacy. Dont know anything about our capabilities, but MK2 will be superior to Rafale F4. Ignorant

I don't Think he will provide evidence for what he claims. Let's keep this thread about SU-30.

 

[Arpuism]

So you have nothing but, "i said so" fallacy. Dont know anything about our capabilities, but MK2 will be superior to Rafale F4. Ignorant

Fact of the matter is people like you wont even do basic research on India’s indigenous platforms coz you are simply not interested. Why wont they do that coz simply the only interest is dalali.

 

[RASALGHUL]

Fact of the matter is people like you wont even do basic research on India’s indigenous platforms coz you are simply not interested. Why wont they do that coz simply the only interest is dalali.

Why can't you just provide evidence for what you claim?

 

[Arpuism]

Why can't you just provide evidence for what you claim?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1288023463127482368

Why cant you people find for yourself?? Jealousy haan…

 

[Rajput Lion]

Why should I? Do some efforts yourself so that atleast you gain some knowledge.

I dnt need anything for your fantasies.

Two people of this forum are like opposition who always want evidence everytime Modi does something good, lol. Whenever you praise an Indian or Indo-Russian defence equipment they would ask for evidence, but when you praise a Europian or especially US product then they are all fine and dandy

Anyways, Tejas Mk2 will have a bigger AESA radar than Rafale. It should have QWIP based dual band IRST which should be superior to that of Rafale's. MK2 will have internal unified jammers and EW like Rafale with equivalent or slightly better characteristics. Only area where Rafale will have an advantage would be kinematics due to being a twin-engine plane.