Sukhoi Su-30MKI

[_Anonymous_]

So far no plans. But Su-30MKI with underbelly SAP-14 can do some real electronic attack. MKI with wingtip mounted SAP-518 and underbelly SAP-14 is literally our Indian Growlerski

This is where we can come up with an upgraded MKI version.

Doval sir just had a long phone call with Mr. Putin as well. We need to expedite Su-57M deal. May be make in India with HAL as production partner. But I would like the Radar, IRST and EW to be completely Indian.

I'd rather we just go in for the M version made in Russia instead of an MKI version or made on India , on an as is basis as we've no time for experimentation . Further this could be quid pro quo for our upgradation of the MKI at home using desi stuff .

However , we need to ensure we get what the RuAF is getting instead of the export / monkey models they normally offer . The war in Ukraine has weakened the Russians & their bargaining position . Time for us to capitalise on the situation .

Our aim should be 2-4 squadrons with one squadron / per FY beginning Apr 27 . For that we need to wrap up price negotiations , terms of payment along with mode of payment & other T&C including the technical terms with an agreement by Mar 25 . We've enough time to see it through.

That way we would be able to silently upgrade them regardless of any Rusky permission. With Su-57MKI, IAF regains its mojo back. Su-57MKI, Rafale-I, MKI Upgrade, LCA MK1A, MK2 and hopefully AMCA by early next decade along with CATS Warriors and other MUMT will turn IAF into a super force that even Chinese will fear to engage.

Amen to the thought .

 

[RASALGHUL]

But Su-30MKI with underbelly SAP-14 can do some real electronic attack. MKI with wingtip mounted SAP-518 and underbelly SAP-14 is literally our Indian Growlerski

Have you seen SU-34 with wingtip Mounted SAP-518? You can bye-bye to Supermaneuvrability with those jammers mounted at wing tip.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Have you seen SU-34 with wingtip Mounted SAP-518? You can bye-bye to Supermaneuvrability with those jammers mounted at wing tip.

MKI with SAP-518 is still very maneuverable. It is only when MKI employs both SAP-518 and SAP-14 that its flight envelope is affected. But SAP-14 is an escort jammer. MKI employs it only when it is on SEAD/DEAD mission. It is not required for Air Superiority mission at all. So no worries on this front.

 

[randomradio]

That is assuming MKI doesn't use its EW and jamming. One switch from the pilot which activates Khibiny-U aka SAP-518 and MKI will disappear from any radar.

Even current MKI is no joke when it comes to EW. With MLU it is going to turn into a much more formidable beast.

Then we don't need Rafale. Or even AMCA.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Then we don't need Rafale. Or even AMCA.

MKI has a limit. Both Rafale and AMCA are needed to operate deep behind enemy lines. MKI's EW is very good. HVT sir called it almost impregnable. But inside enemy territory, MKI still needs to fly low, which isn't its forte while Rafale excels here.

AMCA would use its stealth and supercruise to fly high and fast and find gaps in enemy air defence to conclude its mission.

MKI may or may not be detected as it flies, but killing it within 5Ghz to 18Ghz, i.e., high frequency band territory is NOT an easy task as long as it flies with SAP-518.

Now, our own HBJ is coming online with GaN AESA jamming/DRFM/deception modules. That along with fully digital RWR is going to enhance MKI's survivability multiple times.

 

[randomradio]

MKI has a limit. Both Rafale and AMCA are needed to operate deep behind enemy lines. MKI's EW is very good. HVT sir called it almost impregnable. But inside enemy territory, MKI still needs to fly low, which isn't its forte while Rafale excels here.

AMCA would use its stealth and supercruise to fly high and fast and find gaps in enemy air defence to conclude its mission.

MKI may or may not be detected as it flies, but killing it within 5Ghz to 18Ghz, i.e., high frequency band territory is NOT an easy task as long as it flies with SAP-518.

Now, our own HBJ is coming online with GaN AESA jamming/DRFM/deception modules. That along with fully digital RWR is going to enhance MKI's survivability multiple times.

SAP-518 is a performance failure. It's gonna be replaced.

The problem with relying on EW only for survival is you will be stuck trying to evade all the time. You won't get anything else done if the enemy keeps firing missiles at you and all you're doing is running away. And that will make it pretty much impossible to fight back.

 

[Rajput Lion]

SAP-518 is a performance failure. It's gonna be replaced.

HVT sir called it "impregnable", which simply means it's awesome.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1236484974775132160

Of course, because we have developed a much smaller/lighter yet powerful and advance HBJ ourselves. Plus, USA has got hold of one such pod fully intact in Ukraine. So we're replacing it during MLU.

The problem with relying on EW only for survival is you will be stuck trying to evade all the time. You won't get anything else done if the enemy keeps firing missiles at you and all you're doing is running away. And that will make it pretty much impossible to fight back.

You've a point. But strip Rafale of its SPECTRA and Su-30MKI will destroy it 10 out of 10 with equivalent missiles(Astra 3 & ASRAAM) both BVR and WVR. With SPECTRA, Rafale can target other fighters totally passively. SPECTRA also reduces Rafale's RCS spikes too.

Thus EW can be used offensively as well.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Random said in the above post that we're going to replace SAP-518. Initially, I was of the same thought, but until I dug out this:

IAF just floated a new tender back in November 2022, where they are now replacing all the Russian stuff with Indian hardware. The purpose is to defeat new gen LPI AESA radars as the tender explicitly says. MKI's EW will take a quantum leap with just this upgrade.


Source:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://indianairforce.nic.in/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/RFI-for-REPLACEMENT-OF-SAP-518-HARDWARE.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjSnYTEtoz9AhVnR2wGHVPZDKoQFnoECA8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw03DWYP25xrbIteWC7_-Yc1

@randomradio @_Anonymous_

@marich01 something more on this

 

[randomradio]

Random said in the above post that we're going to replace SAP-518. Initially, I was of the same thought, but until I dug out this:

View attachment 26417

IAF just floated a new tender back in November 2022, where they are now replacing all the Russian stuff with Indian hardware. The purpose is to defeat new gen LPI AESA radars as the tender explicitly says. MKI's EW will take a quantum leap with just this upgrade.

Source: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...sQFnoECBsQAQ&usg=AOvVaw03DWYP25xrbIteWC7_-Yc1

@randomradio @_Anonymous_

@marich01 something more on this

It's a pretty normal requirement. The same requirement as what was needed in LCA and Mig-29 as well, from the 2000s.

Only point 4 is new.

 

[Rajput Lion]

It's a pretty normal requirement. The same requirement as what was needed in LCA and Mig-29 as well, from the 2000s.

Only point 4 is new.

Interesting thing is we all thought IAF is going to replace the much heavier SAP-518 pods with much lighter desi HBJ pods. But seemingly they rather chose to upgrade it. So, maybe Flanker's perormance is not that affected as we previously thought with 518 on wing-tip stations.

And as the tender says, post upgrade MKI will be able to overcome/defeat/jam/spoof/deceive LPI AESA radars. This itself would enhance its survivability in modern dense battle space.


IAF is also going to put "X-Guard" towed-decoy in MKI. I think we are constantly upgrading/have been upgrading MKI silently amidst all this talk about Super Sukhoi upgrade.

All the aforementioned will make MKI much more survivable against J-10C/J-16/J-20 + PL-15 combo.

 

[randomradio]

Interesting thing is we all thought IAF is going to replace the much heavier SAP-518 pods with much lighter desi HBJ pods. But seemingly they rather chose to upgrade it. So, maybe Flanker's perormance is not that affected as we previously thought with 518 on wing-tip stations.

And as the tender says, post upgrade MKI will be able to overcome/defeat/jam/spoof/deceive LPI AESA radars. This itself would enhance its survivability in modern dense battle space.


IAF is also going to put "X-Guard" towed-decoy in MKI. I think we are constantly upgrading/have been upgrading MKI silently amidst all this talk about Super Sukhoi upgrade.

All the aforementioned will make MKI much more survivable against J-10C/J-16/J-20 + PL-15 combo.

It's just an MLU for the existing pods. They are still usable for strike missions. For air superiority, the pods have to be replaced with smaller, lighter ones.

The problem with relying on EW is it makes you reactive. And the MKI lacks the agility to compete when it's on the defensive versus the J-20. The Derby ER is inferior to the PL-15 as well, so that's another problem.

 

[Rajput Lion]

It's just an MLU for the existing pods.

Yes, pretty damn impressive desi upgrade. Good point as the tender mentions is modular nature of the pod, which means we can keep on upgrading it silently without alerting our enemies.

They are still usable for strike missions.

For strike missions, SAP-14 being a low-band escort jammer is more effective.

For air superiority, the pods have to be replaced with smaller, lighter ones.

Yes, but until our HBJ is fully ready, SAP-518 is the default self-defense pod for MKI.

The problem with relying on EW is it makes you reactive. And the MKI lacks the agility to compete when it's on the defensive versus the J-20.

With new gen lighter HBJ pods and avionics, this area will see an improvement. But J-20 thanks to its VLO stealth will always put MKI on the defense, that's the problem.

The Derby ER is inferior to the PL-15 as well, so that's another problem.

Regarding Derby-ER vs PL-15! Only advantage PL-15 has is more range as it's a longer/wider/heavier missile. But against something as agile/maneuverable as MKI that also has got pretty solid ECM, that extra range advantage is not that beneficial, IMO. Both these missiles have an AESA seeker(PL-15 is confirmed), but Derby-ER's ECM & ECCM is simply awesome. Both can reach over 200kms range with high lofted launch. More than enough, in my view.

I think Su-30MKI, flown by IAF pilots with Derby-ER is a fearful bird for our enemies. Had Derby-ER being present on that day of Swift Retreat, both our MKIs would have swatted all 8 F-16s and some more.

 

[Hydra]

I think Su-30MKI, flown by IAF pilots with Derby-ER is a fearful bird for our enemies. Had Derby-ER being present on that day of Swift Retreat, both our MKIs would have swatted all 8 F-16s and some more.

PM doesnt thinking like that. He believed in Rafale rather than on MKI, for obvious reason.

 

[Rajput Lion]

PM doesnt thinking like that. He believed in Rafale rather than on MKI, for obvious reason.

PM was correct and so am I! Rafale with Meteor or Su-30MKI with Derby-ER, doesn't matter as end result would had been the same: Entire attacking F-16s neutralized.

 

[Hydra]

PM was correct and so am I! Rafale with Meteor or Su-30MKI with Derby-ER, doesn't matter as end result would had been the same: Entire attacking F-16s neutralized.

No, MKI with AIM120D wouldn't have done much because of inferior ew. That day what we lacked is definitely 1)As PM said, Rafale 2) its Mig31.

A pair of Mig 31 could have change the entire battle scenario. Its meant to tacle the situation like operation swift retort, destroy /neutralize by targeting force multipliers like AEWS/AWACS, large EW aircrafts. Without AEWS support for PAF, they either disengage or end up losing multiple jets to IAF.

 

[randomradio]

For strike missions, SAP-14 being a low-band escort jammer is more effective.

SAP-14 is an L/S band pod. It's just one of the pods necessary to conduct strike.

Regarding Derby-ER vs PL-15! Only advantage PL-15 has is more range as it's a longer/wider/heavier missile. But against something as agile/maneuverable as MKI that also has got pretty solid ECM, that extra range advantage is not that beneficial, IMO. Both these missiles have an AESA seeker(PL-15 is confirmed), but Derby-ER's ECM & ECCM is simply awesome. Both can reach over 200kms range with high lofted launch. More than enough, in my view.

I think Su-30MKI, flown by IAF pilots with Derby-ER is a fearful bird for our enemies. Had Derby-ER being present on that day of Swift Retreat, both our MKIs would have swatted all 8 F-16s and some more.

I'm betting on the Astra Mk2 and 3 actually. Derby ER will most likely be reduced to a stopgap solution. The delay in finalising Derby ER has allowed DRDO to catch up.

Mk2 should begin firing tests soon. And Mk3 is expected to begin in 2024.

 

[Rajput Lion]

SAP-14 is an L/S band pod. It's just one of the pods necessary to conduct strike.

Very necessary, that's why our Rafale-I too have in-built low band jammers which even French Rafale lack.

I'm betting on the Astra Mk2 and 3 actually. Derby ER will most likely be reduced to a stopgap solution. The delay in finalising Derby ER has allowed DRDO to catch up.

Not only catch up but even exceed the performance of Derby-ER. Astra 2 is 3.84 length missile with weight around 170-175kgs and it almost matches near 4 meter long PL-15 in max range. Derby-ER is much smaller.

Astra 3 aka our desi Meteor is going to be a game-changer. Its range/seeker/kinematics/ECCM everything is going to be better than Meteor. But it is going to be slightly heavy than Meteor at 220kgs. That's the only negative I can think of.

Mk2 should begin firing tests soon.

Very soon.

And Mk3 is expected to begin in 2024.

Can't wait.

 

[Rajput Lion]

No, MKI with AIM120D wouldn't have done much because of inferior ew. That day what we lacked is definitely 1)As PM said, Rafale 2) its Mig31.

A pair of Mig 31 could have change the entire battle scenario. Its meant to tacle the situation like operation swift retort, destroy /neutralize by targeting force multipliers like AEWS/AWACS, large EW aircrafts. Without AEWS support for PAF, they either disengage or end up losing multiple jets to IAF.

MKI with AIM120D, lmfao

 

[Hydra]

MKI with AIM120D, lmfao

Oh forgot, i am talking to a peanut brainer here.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Oh forgot, i am talking to a peanut brainer here.

Lol. Says someone who replies my Su-30MKI with Derby-ER post by saying that MKI is not effective with AIM120D(WTF! Where did this came from) and then I realized that since it was Hydra so anything goes, lmao.