Sukhoi Su-30MKI

[Rajput Lion]

Even T-45 has killed F-22s, it depends on the situation.

Yes, in WVR due to HMD and HOBS, any plane can kill any other plane like our Mig-21 killed F-16. And WVR won't go away like USAF found out in Vietnam.

Even the IAF doesn't believe that much in the MKI. But yeah, no point going in circles.

?? IAF believes that even current MKI with Rafale combo is a formidable one for our enemies. RKS Bhadauria sir explicitly said that. If IAF didn't believe in MKI then he should have not said that.

Recently, IAF fighters going to Japan praised MKI very much. IAF sends MKI in every other important overseas and desi exercise. MKI is an integral and important part of IAF's war doctrine.

 

[Sathya]

. The point of drones is to spend less money on it, so we can afford its loss, the fighter is still the main enabler.


The Warrior is just a weapons mule, at best it can operate a bit closer to a SAM site than the LCA, so it can deploy weapons more reliably while keeping the LCA safe. It's not meant to fight the J-10, J-16 or J-20.

What the Warrior is useful for is to distract the J-20 by presenting itself as a target while allowing the MKI to escape, 'cause the J-20 will have to expend its weapons load on the handful of drones flying towards it. Of course, it won't work as well if the J-20 also has accompanying drones with AAMs. In any case the drones will die first.

With these survivability of our Su 30 mki vs J 20 will be improved..

I don't think we can improve anymore wrt Su 30 mki as standalone against J20.

If there are ways to improve I ll be more than happy only..

However without those, current Mki / upgraded will have even lesser chance right?

 

[_Anonymous_]

With these survivability of our Su 30 mki vs J 20 will be improved..

I don't think we can improve anymore wrt Su 30 mki as standalone against J20.

If there are ways to improve I ll be more than happy only..

However without those, current Mki / upgraded will have even lesser chance right?

If the J-20 is only about stealth , which is what I suspect it is , you only have to detect it first .

Before this decade ends you'd see technologies enabling exactly that . If you do that , it's 50% of the problem solved , the other 50% is being worked upon , hopefully.

 

[Hydra]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1288023463127482368

Why cant you people find for yourself?? Jealousy haan…

so you are quoting a tweet from HAL Dalal, what else you expecting HAL test pilot? I want concrete info regarding EW suit of MK2.AFAIK MK2 may be equivalent to Gripen. A mediocre choice, or reasonably good replacement for Mirage 2k.

 

[Arpuism]

The high rate production of J-20 itself implies thats its not as high performance aircraft as projected. More china is churning out J-20s more I am confined its very inferior to F-22. Remember its a fighter of early 2010s where such high performance can only be brought by huge cost. Even US with 3-4 decades of R&D and huge budget couldn’t continue with F-22 production to less than half of desired level. Other western nations are seeking as much international collaboration as they can to field a 5+ gen NGF. China doesn’t have advantage of low cost labour of India. Most of its fighter tech is borrowed from Russia mixed with stolen tech from western world.

 

[Hydra]

With these survivability of our Su 30 mki vs J 20 will be improved..

I don't think we can improve anymore wrt Su 30 mki as standalone against J20.

If there are ways to improve I ll be more than happy only..

However without those, current Mki / upgraded will have even lesser chance right?

Current lca is having better chance of survivability than MKI.

 

[Arpuism]

so you are quoting a tweet from HAL Dalal, what else you expecting HAL test pilot? I want concrete info regarding EW suit of MK2.AFAIK MK2 may be equivalent to Gripen. A mediocre choice, or reasonably good replacement for Mirage 2k.

Stay in your limits now. You even understand who Sh. HVT & Sh. Raghu Nambiar are?? Who are you?? Whats your identity??

 

[Sathya]

Stay in your limits now. You even understand who Sh. HVT & Sh. Raghu Nambiar are?? Who are you?? Whats your identity??

Hi, u yourself know that he can't comprehend outside his area of interest.

Person of HVT calibre ( real life hero) working and risking his life for HAL, a govt entity, with all it's negative s and difficulties.. Still able to stay positive..
Will he be able to understand what kind of miracle it is.. ?

Our own Bharat Ratna material he is abusing for foreign fighter jets .

Please don't take his posts seriously & ignore him.

We all live with our own beliefs / understand ing, no matter how twisted it is..


I respect his idea of India winning the war.. Rest i ignore him, since I myself don't know much about defense matters and don't want to screw up my mood.

@Golden_Rule ur take on this?

 

[randomradio]

Necessary, I agree to that.

But two questions are there.
1. Question on which configuration IAF wants them. Does the current version work? Or a version with interim upgrade features which may feature other stuff like engine or radar upgrade at a later date? This needs to be decided upon quickly. Because the sensible thing to do is revive the line asap. It has been idle for a while now apart from maybe overhauling it does.

It should come with MLU hardware and software, along with Russian SEAD/DEAD equipment, or whatever kind of specialist equipment is expected.

The delivery is in CKD form, it doesn't need an assembly line.

2. Question for the planners. Although the IAF acknowledges that restarting the line and just for a year is a costly affair, the IAF really wants 50 more Rafales instead of 30-50 more flankers. Will the planners agree to IAF view point? Becoz a section and HAL wants a larger multi year contract. Their arguments are that it will bring down the fixed costs per unit and will help in arresting the falling numbers.

Now at this moment my only personal opinion is that whatever they want, should be decided immediately. We don't exactly have a lot of time.

I don't think time is as relevant as technology. I am starting to believe tech needed by the IAF does not exist today, which is why they have delayed MRFA to the point that contract negotiations and deliveries will focus on future tech that's being developed today, like the Rafale F5. So that's 2030+.

If the IAF stick with MRFA only, then we are looking at 2030+ deliveries for sure. The only alternative is a stopgap purchase of a squadron or two of Rafales or something else. But I feel like we are gonna lose this entire decade, with only 83 new LCAs coming in.

 

[randomradio]

Only area where Rafale will have an advantage would be kinematics due to being a twin-engine plane.

Software maturity and secretive jamming techniques too. Meaning Rafale could have lesser bugs in software due to maturity. And it's obvious the French have a significant lead in terms of EW.

HVT represents HAL, his posts are agenda-driven. He is the real dalal here. Production of Rafale via a private sector company is a direct threat to HAL's monopoly. So it's obvious people with vested interests will go around claiming some things that are not entirely true, 'cause the answers lie in the specifics.

Pretty much all modern aircraft will have similar avionics, although with different levels of reliability and maturity, like comparing a high end iPhone to Android phones. It's the flying characteristics and other aerodynamic design considerations that separate high end from low end. A high end fighter has been designed to pick fights, whereas low end fighters have been designed to avoid fights.

So even if the LCA Mk2 ends up with equivalent or better avionics than the Rafale, it will still be low end when it comes to air superiority and deep penetration strike missions.

 

[randomradio]

?? IAF believes that even current MKI with Rafale combo is a formidable one for our enemies. RKS Bhadauria sir explicitly said that. If IAF didn't believe in MKI then he should have not said that.

Recently, IAF fighters going to Japan praised MKI very much. IAF sends MKI in every other important overseas and desi exercise. MKI is an integral and important part of IAF's war doctrine.

MKI + Rafale, yes. MKI only, no. That's been my whole point.

If the MKI is to be useful, the Rafale has to move in closer and find targets for the MKI to shoot at. The MKI alone does not provide any element of surprise, the minute it flies, everybody will see it.

 

[randomradio]

With these survivability of our Su 30 mki vs J 20 will be improved..

I don't think we can improve anymore wrt Su 30 mki as standalone against J20.

If there are ways to improve I ll be more than happy only..

However without those, current Mki / upgraded will have even lesser chance right?

All the Western planted stories about the J-20 have turned out to be fake. It's as effective as any Western fighter, and is now available in greater numbers.

It currently is VLO, has more advanced sensors than the F-22, likely more advanced than the F-35, they have the money for it. It has advanced data fusion, a BVR weapon that far surpasses the AIM-120D, it even surpasses the Meteor in range. And a WVR weapon that's in the same class as the ASRAAM/IRIS-T. And its supersonic performance currently significantly surpasses the Flanker. The Chinese have also developed an excellent MMI, and I won't be surprised if they are as good or better in utilising AI as well. New technologies will naturally be developed by 2030.

All it's missing is the new engine, which is apparently undergoing flight tests. With that in place, it will match the F-22's performance, while exceeding it in terms of avionics, payload and endurance.

The MKI simply cannot compete.

Even if we assume F-22 class stealth is defeated soon, by the time the first MKI MLU squadron makes the cut, you can bet the Chinese will be introducing a sixth gen ASF. So we have a new problem even before surpassing the old.

Rafale can compete with the J-20, so can the Su-57, but not if the Chinese induct 70-100 J-20s a year.

 

[Rajput Lion]

If the J-20 is only about stealth , which is what I suspect it is , you only have to detect it first .

Before this decade ends you'd see technologies enabling exactly that . If you do that , it's 50% of the problem solved , the other 50% is being worked upon , hopefully.

With WS-15, J-20 will be able to supercruise at around Mach 1.5(like Raptor) and may be more. They are also coming with TVC options for this engine. It already has canards which induces negative stability and enhances maneuverability.

China has outdid itself with J-20. In future it will become even more mightly. We need a heavy air dominance Stealth fighter to outclass it. Problem is China has already started work on their 6th gen fighter.

In mid-2000s, MKI gave us complete air-dominance over our enemies and over any other nation except USA. But now thanks to us dropping from FGFA programme, that advantage is permanently lost.

Rafale is a good plane, but it ain't no MKI. And even it can't provide us any air dominance against PLAAF. Only solace is that the team of Rafale with current MKI and our SAMs are good enough to hold PLAAF.

MKI MLU and a 5th gen fighter are absolutely needed. Cat does not go away even if pigeon closes its eyes. We need to wake up and procure Su-57 MKI with Type-30 engines and Indian radar/avionics as soon as possible within this decade itself.

 

[_Anonymous_]

With WS-15, J-20 will be able to supercruise at around Mach 1.5(like Raptor) and may be more. They are also coming with TVC options for this engine. It already has canards which induces negative stability and enhances maneuverability.

China has outdid itself with J-20. In future it will become even more mightly. We need a heavy air dominance Stealth fighter to outclass it. Problem is China has already started work on their 6th gen fighter.

This assessment is about right. You're looking at an enhanced version of the Raptor not the Lightning in the J-20. That's precisely what I sought to convey in my brief post you've quoted.

The real deal will be the 6th Gen FA from the Chinese. That's going to be their enhanced version of the Lightning. We could see the preliminary version roll out by 2030 although it's scheduled for 2035. Relinking an article I've linked here before.

What a 19-Year-Old Study Tells Us About China’s J-20

A study from 2003 – now available in exclusive English translation – contains important insights on China’s fifth-generation (and beyond) fighter development.

thediplomat.com

In mid-2000s, MKI gave us complete air-dominance over our enemies and over any other nation except USA. But now thanks to us dropping from FGFA programme, that advantage is permanently lost.

Rafale is a good plane, but it ain't no MKI. And even it can't provide us any air dominance against PLAAF. Only solace is that the team of Rafale with current MKI and our SAMs are good enough to hold PLAAF.

Frankly I don't what makes you think the MKI can go up against the PLAAF today. It's only the Rafale which can hold it's own if hostilities break out tomm.

Super Sukhoi MLU is a must if only to give battle not dominate.

MKI MLU and a 5th gen fighter are absolutely needed. Cat does not go away even if pigeon closes its eyes. We need to wake up and procure Su-57 MKI with Type-30 engines and Indian radar/avionics as soon as possible within this decade itself.

We've a situation where for the past 6 yrs & 3 CAS the IAF has been crying out loud on falling squadrons but hasn't done anything w.r.t either the RFI for MRFA not exercised the option for additional Rafales.

Ideally they should be doing both besides reopening the lines at Nashik for more MKIs :& exploring the Su-57 M version with Item 30 engines.

Instead they're surrendering 50% of their CAPEX. Plus they've come out with their latest IAF doctrine listing among other issues why theatrization at this stage is bad for our future plans & that other services namely the IA hasn't understood the concept & vitality of air power in modern warfare. If you can believe them..

Why kill a man determined to commit suicide.
Navjot Sidhu

 

[Arpuism]

Software maturity and secretive jamming techniques too. Meaning Rafale could have lesser bugs in software due to maturity. And it's obvious the French have a significant lead in terms of EW.

HVT represents HAL, his posts are agenda-driven. He is the real dalal here. Production of Rafale via a private sector company is a direct threat to HAL's monopoly. So it's obvious people with vested interests will go around claiming some things that are not entirely true, 'cause the answers lie in the specifics.

Pretty much all modern aircraft will have similar avionics, although with different levels of reliability and maturity, like comparing a high end iPhone to Android phones. It's the flying characteristics and other aerodynamic design considerations that separate high end from low end. A high end fighter has been designed to pick fights, whereas low end fighters have been designed to avoid fights.

So even if the LCA Mk2 ends up with equivalent or better avionics than the Rafale, it will still be low end when it comes to air superiority and deep penetration strike missions.

The real dalal are people like you. HAL is govt entity and which doesnt keep dalals. It is Govt. controlled so whatever Govt. decides it works accordingly. Neither it goes against any Govt decision nor it needs to spread propaganda against Govt. decision. HVT doesnt work in PR deptt of HAL but as a test pilot. I know Dalals like you getting heartburns. But the post of HVT also contains ex AVM’s views who is not working in HAL.

 

[Rajput Lion]

MKI + Rafale, yes. MKI only, no. That's been my whole point.

Current MKI, definitely no. But MKI MLU should, that was my whole point. Anyways, that is passe now

If the MKI is to be useful, the Rafale has to move in closer and find targets for the MKI to shoot at. The MKI alone does not provide any element of surprise, the minute it flies, everybody will see it.

That is assuming MKI doesn't use its EW and jamming. One switch from the pilot which activates Khibiny-U aka SAP-518 and MKI will disappear from any radar.

Even current MKI is no joke when it comes to EW. With MLU it is going to turn into a much more formidable beast.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Frankly I don't what makes you think the MKI can go up against the PLAAF today. It's only the Rafale which can hold it's own if hostilities break out tomm.

Fighting inside our own turf backed by IACCS, our cutting edge SAMs and teamed with Rafale, even current MKI will be handful for any enemy.

We have already integrated Derby-ER and ASRAAM with it. MKI's real problem was long range BVR missile. It is now completely addressed and gives MKI its teeth back.

Super Sukhoi MLU is a must if only to give battle not dominate.

IAF is extremely impressed with MKI post Swift Retreat. 2 MKIs stopped 8 F-16s and made them turn tail. IAF is now determined to make Su-30MKI better than even Rafale in EW and avionics. Su-30MKI's kinematics/supersonic endurance/turning ability/high alpha/maneuverability etc. are even now unmatched by any other IAF plane.

If you don't believe me ask our respected @vstol Jockey sir.

We've a situation where for the past 6 yrs & 3 CAS the IAF has been crying out loud on falling squadrons but hasn't done anything w.r.t either the RFI for MRFA not exercised the option for additional Rafales.
Ideally they should be doing both besides reopening the lines at Nashik for more MKIs :& exploring the Su-57 M version with Item 30 enginesSidhu

Exactly. We desperately need Su-57 within this decade to counter the Chinese VLO threat. Both MKI and Rafale could barely hold J-20 and not dominate it. I sometimes fail to see why are war planners fail to see this fact.

In the recent Swiss report, they found F-35 to be better than Rafale even in air to air roles. What if J-20 too is better? Having too much faith in Rafale could prove to be our downfall. Anyways, 2/3 more squadrons of Rafale are required too for proper force projection/structure/attrition.

 

[Sathya]

Fighting inside our own turf backed by IACCS, our cutting edge SAMs and teamed with Rafale, even current MKI will be handful for any enemy.

We have already integrated Derby-ER and ASRAAM with it. MKI's real problem was long range BVR missile. It is now completely addressed and gives MKI its teeth back.

IAF is extremely impressed with MKI post Swift Retreat. 2 MKIs stopped 8 F-16s and made them turn tail. IAF is now determined to make Su-30MKI better than even Rafale in EW and avionics. Su-30MKI's kinematics/supersonic endurance/turning ability/high alpha/maneuverability etc. are even now unmatched by any other IAF plane.

If you don't believe me ask our respected @vstol Jockey sir.


Exactly. We desperately need Su-57 within this decade to counter the Chinese VLO threat. Both MKI and Rafale could barely hold J-20 and not dominate it. I sometimes fail to see why are war planners fail to see this fact.

In the recent Swiss report, they found F-35 to be better than Rafale even in air to air roles. What if J-20 too is better? Having too much faith in Rafale could prove to be our downfall. Anyways, 2/3 more squadrons of Rafale are required too for proper force projection/structure/attrition.

Any Growler version of Su 30 mki planned?

 

[_Anonymous_]

Exactly. We desperately need Su-57 within this decade to counter the Chinese VLO threat. Both MKI and Rafale could barely hold J-20 and not dominate it. I sometimes fail to see why are war planners fail to see this fact.

Rumours of India re establishing contact & opening talks regarding the Su-57 M have been doing the rounds of Indian Def Twitter ever since the M version was fitted in with the Izdeliye-30 engines for flight testing last October onwards . I'm guessing it should receive FOC by 2025.

Russian production plans include 36 nos by 2025 ( Mk-1 version ) & the remaining upto 75 ( the full quota of their Su-57 procurement ) by 2027-28 .

Doval is in Moscow with Dr Satish Reddy . Let's see what comes out of it .

 

[Rajput Lion]

Any Growler version of Su 30 mki planned?

So far no plans. But Su-30MKI with underbelly SAP-14 can do some real electronic attack. MKI with wingtip mounted SAP-518 and underbelly SAP-14 is literally our Indian Growlerski

Rumours of India re establishing contact & opening talks regarding the Su-57 M have been doing the rounds of Indian Def Twitter ever since the M version was fitted in with the Izdeliye-30 engines for flight testing last October onwards . I'm guessing it should receive FOC by 2025.

Russian production plans include 36 nos by 2025 ( Mk-1 version ) & the remaining upto 75 ( the full quota of their Su-57 procurement ) by 2027-28 .

Doval is in Moscow with Dr Satish Reddy . Let's see what comes out of it .

Doval sir just had a long phone call with Mr. Putin as well. We need to expedite Su-57M deal. May be make in India with HAL as production partner. But I would like the Radar, IRST and EW to be completely Indian.

That way we would be able to silently upgrade them regardless of any Rusky permission. With Su-57MKI, IAF regains its mojo back. Su-57MKI, Rafale-I, MKI Upgrade, LCA MK1A, MK2 and hopefully AMCA by early next decade along with CATS Warriors and other MUMT will turn IAF into a super force that even Chinese will fear to engage.