Sukhoi Su-30MKI

[randomradio]

India has pretty much caught up with the West when it comes to electronics, which is why MKI MLU is pretty much all Indian. We can see that through the air show. So it makes sense to believe the Chinese did the same 10 years ago.

Once you have caught up, it's all about money power. And China has both economies of scale and deep pockets, probably the deepest pockets in all the lands.

It's ridiculous to think they can't make electronics on par with the West when we can, and with significantly lesser funds and programs.

Since it's a far more modern design than either of the American designs, we should take it for granted that the J-20 is as stealthy as if not more stealthy than the F-22, and already has electronics that's better than anything operational in the West today, 'cause obviously it's new. Anything contrary to this is just hubris. At least we know the USAF is grounded in reality. The fact that the US military is preparing for a war without guaranteed air superiority is proof enough.

 

[randomradio]

If they just allow us to use our own expertise on the AL31FP ToT which was provided. We are capable of building an AL31 variant better than any Russian engine in terms of reliability and efficiency within 3-4 years.

HAL has had deep ToT of whole AL31FP.

Chinese reverse Engineered AL31 from Ukraine blueprints for repairs. We have deep ToT to manufacture whole engine from scratch in India from Indian materials.

Whole documentation and expertise is laying waste.

That would be a really big, heavy, annoying monkey off our backs. The Russians have an outsized influence over us in the wrong areas.

 

[marich01]

Don't HAL usually outsource? I thought this is why MoD told them to stop overreliance on imports & indigenise the parts as a start, they have been creating a local supply chain hastily over the past year.

 

[Rajput Lion]

According to DDR, Su-30MLU may get an internal EW suite while the twin HBJ are going to become operational by second half of next year:

As confirmed here, Su-30UPG's HBJ and Tejas MK1A ASPJ are related. In fact, Su-30UPG's HBJ are literally bigger version of Tejas's ASPJ.

Now guys another great news coming fron Aero India 2023. These Jamming pods that DRDO has developed are based on GaN T/R modules. Confirmed by a DRDO scientist @3:27:

@randomradio We have achieved something which even French do not have. Our Rafale's SPECTRA still has GaA jamming, whilst our Su-30UPG will have GaN based HBJ pods/EW suite by mid next year. Tejas MK1A will have it from its first model next year.

PS: The weight of Tejas' ASPJ is only around 130kgs. Su-30s HBJ would be slightly more heavier. In comparison SAP-518 is 225 kgs each and SAP-14 is 350kgs.

 

[randomradio]

As confirmed here, Su-30UPG's HBJ and Tejas MK1A ASPJ are related. In fact, Su-30UPG's HBJ are literally bigger version of Tejas's ASPJ.

Now guys another great news coming fron Aero India 2023. These Jamming pods that DRDO has developed are based on GaN T/R modules. Confirmed by a DRDO scientist @3:27:

@randomradio We have achieved something which even French do not have. Our Rafale's SPECTRA still has GaA jamming, whilst our Su-30UPG will have GaN based HBJ pods/EW suite by mid next year. Tejas MK1A will have it from its first model next year.

PS: The weight of Tejas' ASPJ is only around 130kgs. Su-30s HBJ would be slightly more heavier. In comparison SAP-518 is 225 kgs each and SAP-14 is 350kgs.

We have known all this for quite sometime. We have had production-ready GaN in the X band for years now, the QRSAM radars are all GaN.

In the West, SH got GaN EW in 2016 and Gripen E followed. Rafale was supposed to follow with EW suite and radar upgrades, but that's been delayed to F5, 2030.

I'd argue the only reason why we don't have GaN radar for LCA and MKI is simply because they can't power such a radar. With the cooling system on the MKI limited to 10.5KW, it's also the peak power of the radar. It's a significant upgrade over the Bars, but it's not enough for utilising all the advantages of GaN for the investment needed.

 

[Rajput Lion]

We have known all this for quite sometime. We have had production-ready GaN in the X band for years now, the QRSAM radars are all GaN.

I've known this since long too, but decided not to reveal as people would mock me by saying Resident Optimist number 2, lol.

In the West, SH got GaN EW in 2016 and Gripen E followed. Rafale was supposed to follow with EW suite and radar upgrades, but that's been delayed to F5, 2030.

Which means, next year onwards MKI will have insanely good EW, maybe even better than SPECTRA.

I'd argue the only reason why we don't have GaN radar for LCA and MKI is simply because they can't power such a radar. With the cooling system on the MKI limited to 10.5KW, it's also the peak power of the radar. It's a significant upgrade over the Bars, but it's not enough for utilising all the advantages of GaN for the investment needed.

I disagree with this conclusion. GaN should need even lesser power than GaA. If power was such a concern then AMCA VCU won't be of similar rating, i.e., 10.5KW like the proposed MKI UPG VCU.

Lets look at this poster posted by @marich01:

Now what's written at the bottom:

So, MKI and AMCA will have same power rated VCU @10.5 KW. Thus I conclude that in future MKI too will get GaN AESA radar, once that tech matures and is ready for AMCA.

 

[marich01]

Well I saw this today , GaN tech wise will need some time to mature from the big radars stage to be used into jets stage. So that Mk2 getting GaN will probably be a later batch like Mk1a getting uttam. Sufficient testing 7 certifying this itself take long time even if we got it ready early.

I was a bit surprised by ECS DRDO claiming within 2 years Uttam being ready. I think they meant tech wise it will be ready ie their share of work. Now they handover this tech to industry, who themselves will take some time to turn that into product, 2-4 years. Uttam ToT handed over in one of the seminars this week, but it takes time for a product uttam radar to realise. This ToT I think was likely GaAs.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1626929544577036288

 

[_Anonymous_]

Well I saw this today , GaN tech wise will need some time to mature from the big radars stage to be used into jets stage. So that Mk2 getting GaN will probably be a later batch like Mk1a getting uttam. Sufficient testing 7 certifying this itself take long time even if we got it ready early.

I was a bit surprised by ECS DRDO claiming within 2 years Uttam being ready. I think they meant tech wise it will be ready ie their share of work. Now they handover this tech to industry, who themselves will take some time to turn that into product, 2-4 years. Uttam ToT handed over in one of the seminars this week, but it takes time for a product uttam radar to realise. This ToT I think was likely GaAs.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1626929544577036288

Uttam Mk-1 has been in testing since the past 5 yrs IIRC. They've still not been certified. Same T/L applicable for Mk-2 or GaN .

 

[RASALGHUL]

Which means, next year onwards MKI will have insanely good EW, maybe even better than SPECTRA.

I am not sure about it.
Hell, even @randomradio will agree with me.

 

[marich01]

Uttam Mk-1 has been in testing since the past 5 yrs IIRC. They've still not been certified. Same T/L applicable for Mk-2 or GaN .

I do not know if Uttam project was MM or TD, I would guess it was at TD stage. Hence long tech validation time. If it were a mission mode project then less delay would have happened.

 

[Rajput Lion]

I am not sure about it.
Hell, even @randomradio will agree with me.

GaN produces almost twice as power as GaA with similar power input. Thus it needs much less power to reach same efficacy. Su-30MKI having a GaN based EW from next year along with Tejas MK1A is amazing news for us. MKI is already a very powerful jet, just imagine the kind of jamming power at its disposal with GaN EW suite. It will have power to make even AESA LPI radars and AESA missile seekers totally ineffective like SPECTRA.

 

[_Anonymous_]

I do not know if Uttam project was MM or TD, I would guess it was at TD stage. Hence long tech validation time. If it were a mission mode project then less delay would have happened.

No clue but I don't think it was in Mission Mode project. It began somewhere around 2008/09 & last August DRDO handed over ToT for mfg to HAL. DDR reports as of last yr that MKI version will take 3-4 yrs including 2 yrs of in flight testing .

 

[Ashwin]

 

[_Anonymous_]

View attachment 26616

No mention of GaN here . @Rajput Lion

 

[Rajput Lion]

No mention of GaN here . @Rajput Lion

Even Tejas' ASPJ's brochure didn't mention GaN, but @3:27 here confirmation that both small brother and big brother will have GaN based pods from next year onwards(from horse' mouth directly):

View attachment 26616

As previous brochure mentions RWR to be wideband between 1GHz to 40GHz, but strangely they are still calling it DR118.

Anyways, good news is that its now cleared for induction. But in only 129 Flankers though?? Why not the entire 260+ fleet??!!

 

[_Anonymous_]

Even Tejas' ASPJ's brochure didn't mention GaN, but @3:27 here confirmation that both small brother and big brother will have GaN based pods from next year onwards(from horse' mouth directly):

As previous brochure mentions RWR to be wideband between 1GHz to 40GHz, but strangely they are still calling it DR118.

Anyways, good news is that its now cleared for induction. But in only 129 Flankers though?? Why not the entire 260+ fleet??!!

Yes that was precisely my point. I'd linked this video y'day. These idiots can't even design the brochures accurately.

 

[Rajput Lion]

Yes that was precisely my point. I'd linked this video y'day. These idiots can't even design the brochures accurately.

Maybe GaN part was not supposed to be revealed now but Alpha Defense guy managed to ask about it and got the answer.

Maybe the export version of these pods will be GaA based and GaN for domestic use

 

[Rajput Lion]

@randomradio

In our last discussion you said that MKI's EW would be full external. But it looks like the next gen EW systems consists of an "internal wideband receiver" and external jamming pods. Same for Tejas MK1A. The difference is Tejas' pod seems to be smaller and it'll have one receiver, one ASPJ pod configuration whilst Su-30UPG will have one internal receiver and two wingtip mounted ASPJ pods. Along with wideband RWR(1GHz to 40GHz), it is almost bleeding edge. What say?

Here is comparison of Tejas MK1A's ASPJ vs Su-30UPG's ASPJ. We can see both the jamming pod plus the "internal receiver"(black box) in both pics:

 

[Rajput Lion]

Earlier SAP-518 pods were one transmitter and one receiver configuration. That configuration makes it hard to do cross-eye jamming. While these twin ASPJ/HBJ pods we've developed for Su-30MKI are both capable of transmitting and receiving, thus consisting of both TX and RX antennas.

This configuration would allow MKI to do cross-eye jamming much effectively, thereby deceiving the enemy radar by creating false targets:

Cross-eye jamming image for reference:

This is where MKI's twin wing-tip ASPJ configuration is going to be more advance and effective than Tejas' single ASPJ configuration. But since Tejas' RCS is small, even that should suffice.

Source of the above image: Cross-eye - EMSOPEDIA

 

[Rajput Lion]

In the above post, I somewhat compared Su-30MKI's new EW configuration with Eurofighter's EW one(in reference of cross-eye jamming). Now during the Swiss Evaluation both Rafale and Gripen were rated above Typhoon in EW.

SAAB has introduced new GaN based EW system in Gripen-E. So its EW has taken a quantum jump from where it was during the Swiss Evaluation, talking of which even with External GaA pods Gripen was much closer to Rafale's SPECTRA. Take a look:

Look at the left corner, the green line is so close to the blue.

Link of above link: https://files.newsnetz.ch/upload//1/2/12332.pdf

Now Gripen-E gets GaN based pods, I think now its EW might have surpassed that of the Rafale(GaN EW coming post 2030 in F5).

Now why am I harping about Gripen-E' EW system in Su-30MKI thread. Well take a look:

Link of the image: BACK TO BASICS: STEALTH AND COUNTERMEASURES

Now what do we see here. The configuration with two GaN based wing-tip pods and 6 spread RWR sensors is almost identical to what we're going to put in MKI from late next year onwards.


It's my wild assumption, I may be right or wrong, but once we put Digital ultra wideband RWR (1-40GHz) along with these twin GaN based ASPJ pods, MKI's EW is going to surpass that of the Rafale. Lets see......