Tejas Mk2 (Medium Weight Fighter) - News and discussions
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The thing is, it escapes our collective conscience that we have to start somewhere. That proverbial first step of a thousand mile walk. You can't realistically expect to be placing that first step on the finish line. Similarly our first iteration products won't be state of the art. But we would only buy state of the art. There we dug up the grave for Indian defence industry, and in due course india as a nation state
True.
But to be honnest, at those time Rafale will not be our front line fighter. A little bit like french Mirage 2000 D : Yesterday one of our main weapon, and tomorrow mainly used on second lines front like Sahel.
SCAF will began to replace Rafale in the 2050'
But going all out with 5th and 6th gen fighter jets would be an extremely expensive affair regardless of the size of the defence budget in the future.
You are right.
A lot of missions don't need so costly fighter. That's why in France we used older fighter for African tour (Jaguar when Mirage F1 was frontline, F1 when M2000 was frontline, M2000 now with Rafale). It's more than enough to kick the *censored* of some muslims in a Toyota.
The main problem India has is a lack of commitment to its projects.
Aircraft, especially modern combat aircraft, are very expensive machines. Especially if you want to master every part of them, like the US, Russia, or France do, and like China is starting. It's more affordable if you only worry about mastering some parts of it, like Sweden, but still expensive.
For the Tejas like for the Kaveri, there never was a will to fully commit. Invariably, the program to acquire all the know-how and know-why was much more expensive than originally hoped for (due to excessive optimism and confidence in the ability to do the same thing as other countries but at a tenth of the cost), causing the project to be delayed so as to reduce the cost-per-year, meaning that it arrives too late to still be relevant, so it has to be redesigned, so the cost increases, and you get an infernal endless loop until the project is eventually canceled (Kaveri) or begrudgingly accepted in a subpar config (Tejas).
But for imports, there's the same problem. Gotta get the very best thing from some other country, better than even their domestic variant, but it has to be cheaper, and it cannot be magically cheaper, so again the whole deal gets redtaped to death.
The Tejas was meant to be a Desi Mirage 2000. Now we have an ORCA that is meant to be a Desi Rafale. So I expect a repeat of the Mirage 2000/Tejas story with the Rafale/ORCA story.
Aircraft, especially modern combat aircraft, are very expensive machines. Especially if you want to master every part of them, like the US, Russia, or France do, and like China is starting. It's more affordable if you only worry about mastering some parts of it, like Sweden, but still expensive.
For the Tejas like for the Kaveri, there never was a will to fully commit. Invariably, the program to acquire all the know-how and know-why was much more expensive than originally hoped for (due to excessive optimism and confidence in the ability to do the same thing as other countries but at a tenth of the cost), causing the project to be delayed so as to reduce the cost-per-year, meaning that it arrives too late to still be relevant, so it has to be redesigned, so the cost increases, and you get an infernal endless loop until the project is eventually canceled (Kaveri) or begrudgingly accepted in a subpar config (Tejas).
But for imports, there's the same problem. Gotta get the very best thing from some other country, better than even their domestic variant, but it has to be cheaper, and it cannot be magically cheaper, so again the whole deal gets redtaped to death.
The Tejas was meant to be a Desi Mirage 2000. Now we have an ORCA that is meant to be a Desi Rafale. So I expect a repeat of the Mirage 2000/Tejas story with the Rafale/ORCA story.
To create a complete aero cluster is a long and costly task. Too lang and costly for India.
Too long : it takes 10 years to built a proper radar or engine, for world top supplier as Westinghouse, Thales, Selex, RR, PW, Safran. 10 years are a century in Indian time !
Too costly : see Kaveri. How many trials to find a west supplier to help ending the dev and industrial phases ? always "too costly". So now what is the status of the project? a boat turbine or a UCAV engine.... what a pity.
exactly, how can AMCA be above 5Gen if we are yet to invent tech that'd go in 6th gen & expect it to be inducted in 2030. Wishful thinking. Like I always say, we should be more concerned about timeline. 2030 should not become 2040.
Compared to the LCA, the ORCA is nothing more than a basic program.
Jumping from nothing to LCA was massive. Jumping from LCA to MWF to AMCA and then to ORCA is actually a massive downgrade. AMCA is in the demonstration stage while ORCA is only in the design stage.
The LCA was originally a Mirage III. Basic hydraulics controls, a radar with the ability to track just 1 target, so on.
DRDO changed it to a Mirage III with M 2000 tech. Digital FBW, BVR capability, HMS, glass cockpit, HOTAS etc.
So the way LCA evolved since the beginning and through the course of its development is very different from what's been planned for ORCA.
For ORCA, all the basic technologies have more or less been developed through other programs, like the Su-30/Jaguar upgrade and LCA/MWF. The only task now is to build the airframe and flight test it.
But what this shows is India's aerospace capabilities have increased a lot, to the point where we now have Gripen E, Rafale and F-35 programs running in parallel, not counting the LCA. That's pretty much all of US and Europe's ongoing fighter jet programs combined.
So I don't see how this shows a "lack of commitment to its projects."
The problem with Kaveri was the failure to anticipate that the LCA will become overweight. The engine itself is fine.
AMCA has been divided into two separate programs. One with an inferior engine (which is available now) and the other with a more advanced engine (with a foreign partner).
AMCA's avionics will be 5.5th/6th gen.
For example, Rafale F4 will come with avionics that are more advanced than what's on the F-35. AMCA Mk1 has similar goals as Rafale F4.
5th gen hua nahi 5.5 ho gaya bhai?
slow down bro. lets get the prototype up first.
MWF will easily have 5th gen avionics.
LCA Mk1A will also carry 5th gen avionics, although it's mostly Israeli. But it will be more similar to the avionics on the F-22, rather than Rafale or F-35, due to lack of MAWS, IRST and internal jammer (the F-22 lacks these as well).
AESA, EW suite, SDR, CIT and sensor fusion are more than enough to give Mk1A's avionics the 5th gen tag. MWF will replace most of the Israeli systems with Indian systems and will also come MAWS, IRST and internal jammer. All these are pretty much what's on the F-35 and Rafale as well.
Apart from that, MWF will be optionally manned, will have AI and other cognitive capabilities, and also have the ability to control drones as wingmen. All these are pretty much well above 5th gen features. In case our design takes more time, the Israelis can easily offer a laser pod as well (they will start field testing a ground based system for operational use this year).
So forget AMCA, MWF itself exceeds the 5th gen tag. And most of the stuff I named will be ready even before MWF's first flight. Hell, they are talking about integrating some of it, like Uttam, on 1 or 2 squadrons of LCA Mk1A itself. MWF's radar and EW suite are already being flight tested on LCA, so I am not writing fiction.
If the F 22 itself isn't fully 5 gen in spite of being stealth with all the attendant problems in maintenance to maintain its stealth, how's the MWF, which if it arrives in 2030 equal the F-22 which was inducted into service in the late 1990's & what equivalence is this?
Wow. Mk1a 5 th generation in avionics? Without MAWS?
That's what I'm afraid of. That ADA will try something they're not capable of & doggedly pursue it for decades.
This is why I hate Old Monk. I used to binge on it. Shifted to McDowwell's white rum. Some clarity. Shifted to be what you want to be. Not much nasha. Spent a bomb too. That's why it should be DSP Black or blenders pride.
Read carefully. I said "avionics". The F-22 is a 5th gen "fighter jet". LCA Mk1A will only carry 5th gen "avionics".
The F-22 was introduced in 2005, but by the time it undergoes MLU in 2025, the avionics of the F-22 and MWF will be very similar. And mind you, the F-22 is a much larger and more important program than the MWF for their respective air forces. In either case, both jets will have avionics that will far exceed the definition of 5th gen. So I am only enlarging the view of your friend who thinks we can't do it, and is obviously unclear on what 5th gen means.
So? There are plenty of technologies that the Mk1A will have that even the F-22 doesn't. Like an SDR and CIT. Having just one technology doesn't define 5th gen. Rather I can make fun of F-22 for not possessing SDR and CIT.
If the Balakot Mi-17 had SDR and CIT, it wouldn't have been shot down.
In the current environment, SDR and CIT are far more important than MAWS.
Northrop’s fix for F-35 and F-22 communications problem involves Global Hawk drones
The F-22 lacks HMDS as well.
It's fine even if they are delayed. These are not hardware-centric, it's all software and can be patched into every jet overnight.
Most of it is necessary to develop UAVs and UCAVs anyway. So even these have parallel programs ongoing today.
The N-LCA already possess automated take off.
Navy's Tejas aims for first-ever take-off from aircraft carrier Vikramaditya
There is also a program to develop an unmanned Tejas.
Project to develop unmanned variant of Tejas planes in works
You drink and process it all wrong, no different from how you process information all wrong. Nothing wrong with the data or the drink, it's a processing problem.
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now since 200 rafales are not coming you are putting us in different set of clouds......
Not really.
Right now I'm still unclear as to the nature of ORCA, whether it's TEDBF or a separate program. But this is not an official program. So I don't think MMRCA (now called MRFA) will be affected by ORCA.
There was an alternate plan to produce 100+ jets for the navy, separate from their tender for 57 MRCBF. ORCA may very well be aimed towards that goal rather than the IAF. So it's the navy's requirement of 150+ jets that's in question, not IAF's MRFA.
Anyway, I doubt the ORCA's going to exceed the capabilities of the Rafale F4.2, maybe 4.1 is possible, so it's going to be difficult for ADA to convince the IAF to go for their jet, although the navy will be more willing due to problems with Rafale's unfoldable wing design for carriers.
So, as long as Rafale is L1, you will see 200 jets from MRFA. The IAF most definitely needs 200+ Rafale class jets.
Some experts are saying that F 21 is still a contender , it can be ordered when.it is Fully
Ready
There is no Guarantee that MMRCA 2
Will go to RAFALE
It's impossible for the F-16 to be considered in any capacity. Let others talk whatever they want. The MWF has completely killed any chance the F-16 and Gripen E had. Of course, if the MWF fails, then the F-16 becomes a contender again, but that's unlikely to happen.
Now, if a political deal is to be made and GoI is forced for some reason to go for an American aircraft, then it will be the Super Hornet, not the F-16. Due to reasons of long range, payload and survivability, the IAF needs a twin engine jet. So having MWF AND F-16 leads to duplication of the same capability, which makes the F-16 purchase pointless.
During MMRCA, F-16 and SH were rejected using flimsy reasons, one of them being the jets were too old, and this was back in 2010. So one can imagine how much older the jets are in 2020, or will be in 2023. So you can expect the same thing to happen this time as well. This is not counting all the advanced capabilities the IAF will ask for that neither the F-16 nor the SH possess today, like GaN radar and EW suite.
IAF wants jets which have a proper upgrade path well into the 2040s. They don't want to be in the same position as with the Jaguar today, where the OEM is asking for big bucks just for an engine upgrade. When the captive market is lost, the IAF loses price control.
Yep, there is no guarantee that MMRCA will go to Rafale again, but there's no other better jet in the contest right now.
That's semantics. We can argue on what 5 th gen is till the cows come home. What's your definition of 5th gen?
The MWF isn't stealth though it aims to be LO. We've defined the tech specs of MWF. I'm not aware of the tech specs of the F-22. If it's your point that the F-22 which has been geometrically designed to be stealth apart from the RAM coating which designates it's stealth capabilities as opposed to the MWF, then I've nothing to say.
It's all very well to be aspirational.
I guess the 2005 F 22 will get what the 2030 MWF will get. With the former being stealth & the latter attempting to be so with attempted LO & attempts at SPECTRA Like abilities.
What's your opinion? According to you Gaganshakti was a great success too. Till Balakote happened.
Already answered this.
Lasers too? You're claiming MWF will already have near 6 th gen capabilities.
Par for the course. Any enhancements in this regard to bring it to state of the art status is always welcome.How's it going to enhance the fighting abilities or stealth abilities?
I'd rather have processing problems than be insanely optimistic while being simultaneously sober. I will still be excused. What's your excuse?