Tejas Mk2 (Medium Weight Fighter) - News and discussions

You forgot one little fact.
The labs in Europe and USA aren't sitting idle.
They are churning out 'solutions' as we speak.
They have higher number and better labs with magnitudes of scale higher funding.
They are also starting from a higher base than India.

The heavy optimism you spread often leads to disappointment. Because we start expecting a lot more from our resources and efforts.

It's amazing what we have achieved so far but we are not where near Europe. Heck China is no where near Europe and we are no where near China.
And the gap is increasing as the day progresses.

Actually, we are. And China's already on par with Europe (minus jet engine). Look at the level of work they are doing in something easily visible like the navy, carriers, LHDs, supply ships etc.

At this moment, India is conducting research at the same level as the US and Europe. The only difference is they have been conducting it for longer so are ahead. We need time and cross some hurdles of uncertainty, which we have all mostly crossed.

And no, we do not need the same level of funding they need because most of their funding goes into paying salaries. At $50000 to $200000 a year, their pay is simply far beyond imagining. Similar level of expertise gives you less than $15,000 per annum in DRDO. DRDO chief's salary is less than $50,000 pa, whereas LM's CEO's pay is in the tens of millions of dollars.

For a 10-year project, the combined salary of 100 high level scientists in India is just $1.5-2 million, absolute peanuts. In the US, it's as much as $200 million, a ridiculously high amount. Now think about 1000 or 5000 scientists. So that's where a huge chunk of their funding goes.

With our funds, we are currently managing 3 fighter jet R&D programs. MWF and TEDBF alone puts us on par with ongoing projects in Europe. So this story about funds being an issue is wrong. Funding is one of the few areas which scientists say are well covered for current projects. It is one of the few areas where the govt has not failed scientists. The only ones complaining about funding is the media, because they use their ognorance to create false equivalence.

As for starting from a higher base, I don't know what that means. Is it experience? There's no doubt they are ahead when it comes to real world products, but we are prototyping those same products now as well, which means we have more or less caught up. Take AMCA Mk1, it will be more advanced than the Rafale and Typhoon, and the only European equivalents (or superiors) will become available 10 years after AMCA Mk1, ie 2040. By the time AMCA Mk1 is ready, we could very well start work on something that's even better than a European next gen program for induction in 2050.

When it comes to products with smaller gestation periods, we have already caught up in some areas, like radars, sonars etc. For example, Uttam with GaN could enter service at the same time as Rafale comes with a GaN radar. Su-30MKI is currently being tested with a GaN based ECM kit, at the same time as Gripen and Rafale.
 
And no, we do not need the same level of funding they need because most of their funding goes into paying salaries. At $50000 to $200000 a year, their pay is simply far beyond imagining. Similar level of expertise gives you less than $15,000 per annum in DRDO. DRDO chief's salary is less than $50,000 pa, whereas LM's CEO's pay is in the tens of millions of dollars.

For a 10-year project, the combined salary of 100 high level scientists in India is just $1.5-2 million, absolute peanuts. In the US, it's as much as $200 million, a ridiculously high amount. Now think about 1000 or 5000 scientists. So that's where a huge chunk of their funding goes.
Please explain why would a brilliant engineer work for DRDO or BEL when he can get 5 times more salary in India itself !! None of my batch mates including me, stayed back in public sector research labs. With all due respect to my ex-coworkers, only the bottommost performers are still hanging around there. They have no ambition of making money and at the same time they don't want to deliver anything either. It's the bitter truth.

In this world, you get what you pay for. Expecting world class results while paying peanuts is wishful thinking, same as comparing LM with DRDO !!
 
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2 years for a radar ?? Even a smartphone takes 3-4 years from concept to volume production, with delta changes. A brand new phone from scratch, takes 5-6 years !!

I'm talking about the gestation period required for prototyping and testing. Not the initial design stage and component development. For radars, it's 2 years. Full development from scratch can take 5 years or more depending on the complexity.
 
I'm talking about the gestation period required for prototyping and testing. Not the initial design stage and component development. For radars, it's 2 years. Full development from scratch can take 5 years or more depending on the complexity.
Even a simple chip takes at least 1 year just for validation which means testing the chip for all designed parameters. A complicated system like radar is not built just like a lego. Each sub module, module and subsystem need to be validated prior to integration and prototyping and in spite of parallel planning takes lot of time to validate. 2 yrs is simply out of question.
 
Please explain why would a brilliant engineer work for DRDO or BEL when he can get 5 times more salary in India itself !! None of my batch mates including me, stayed back in public sector research labs. With all due respect to my ex-coworkers, only the bottommost performers are still hanging around there. They have no ambition of making money and at the same time they don't want to deliver anything either. It's the bitter truth.

In this world, you get what you pay for. Expecting world class results while paying peanuts is wishful thinking, same as comparing LM with DRDO !!

So what you're saying is we don't have SSBNs, destroyers, frigates, space rockets and satellites, LCA, Arjun, Akash, BMD, ballistic missiles, nuclear weapons etc because everybody is a bottom feeder and just sitting around and doing nothing. Why are you talking like Gafoola?

"Bitter truth"? Dunno what that means.

I don't know what period of time you are talking about, but right now DRDO and ISRO are prime employers for our top engineer and science universities. Different people have different motivations. If you want to work on submarines, you look at DRDO. If you want to work on human spaceflight, then ISRO. If you want to develop smartphones, then join some MNC. Apart from that, DRDO and ISRO have started tie ups with IIT and IISc and some other universities, so even those people are now working on DRDO projects.

Now, IIT & IISc will help forces to get futuristic defence technologies
 
Even a simple chip takes at least 1 year just for validation which means testing the chip for all designed parameters. A complicated system like radar is not built just like a lego. Each sub module, module and subsystem need to be validated prior to integration and prototyping and in spite of parallel planning takes lot of time to validate. 2 yrs is simply out of question.

Uttam began flight testing a few months ago and is expected to finish by 2021. In 2022, it's expected to get production clearance. And this is our very first fighter AESA radar.
 
So what you're saying is we don't have SSBNs, destroyers, frigates, space rockets and satellites, LCA, Arjun, Akash, BMD, ballistic missiles, nuclear weapons etc because everybody is a bottom feeder and just sitting around and doing nothing. Why are you talking like Gafoola?



Now, IIT & IISc will help forces to get futuristic defence technologies
For each of the product you boasted above, check the time line of delivery of China. From 1950 till 1990, China's economic condition was no better than us, yet they achieved each of these decades before us. You are boasting like a person who completes a 100m sprint in 25 sec and claims he just took 15 seconds more than Usain Bolt !!

Oh BTW ISRO and DRDO always get some engineers from top universities. Issue is most of them do not last for more than 2-3 years. You can believe whatever you want to. Not everybody has guts to digest truth!!
 
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For each of the product you boasted above, check the time line of delivery of China. From 1950 till 1990, China's economic condition was no better than us, yet they achieved each of these decades before us. You are boasting like a person who completes a 100m sprint in 25 sec and claims he just took 15 seconds more than Usain Bolt !!

Oh BTW ISRO and DRDO always get some engineers from top universities. Issue is most of them do not last for more than 2-3 years. You can believe whatever you want to. Not everybody has guts to digest truth!!
Actually that analogy of a person taking 15 s more than Bolt is amusing though commendable & isn't all that wrong if you consider India vis a vis any of these developed nations.. Of course @randomradio expectedly imparts a Shane Warne style highly optimistic spin to it. I used to suspect he's with DRDO. Not anymore. I'm sure he's with them now.
 
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For each of the product you boasted above, check the time line of delivery of China. From 1950 till 1990, China's economic condition was no better than us, yet they achieved each of these decades before us. You are boasting like a person who completes a 100m sprint in 25 sec and claims he just took 15 seconds more than Usain Bolt !!

Completely wrong. China received a lot of Western tech in the 70s and the 80s, until Tiananmen Square massacre. Their diesel-electric submarine uses AIP tech acquired from Sweden. Their WS-10 engine is based on CFM-56 from the US. They also received ToT from Britain for Spey 202 engines. Their ships use German licensed engines, not their own engines, even today. They received a lot of help from Northrop Grumman when it came to designing aircraft, including J-10 and JF-17, not to mention Israeli help. The Israelis helped them develop the KJ-2000 as well. And the Israelis also transferred Lavi radar tech for the J-10, apart from software required to design aircraft. It is still unknown how much technology the Israelis have transferred during the military sanctions on China. It's actually the Israelis who are the main culprits when it comes to ToT of western technology to China. This was supported by reverse engineering every piece of hardware they got from the Soviets before 1969 and later from Russia. So everything they have today is a product of extensive tech transfer from the West from 1975 to 1989 (after they opened up their economy) followed by tech transfer of high end technologies from ex-USSR states and absorption of ex-Soviet scientists after 1991, all built on a foundation of reverse engineering. And all of this was supported on a much larger defence budget than India's.

Otoh, we developed everything we have ourselves, even though some of our older tech has been inspired from existing tech and we have received foreign assistance in many places, the base technologies itself are our own. We have been a perpetually technology denied nation because of the West's and Russia's bad experience with China. Everything we have is pretty much unique and Indian.

So, no, you have no clue what you are talking about.

What I'm talking about is the West completed their 9 second dash in 1995 and India did the same 9 second dash in 2015. The Chinese did it in 2005. The Chinese trained for this in Western training camps while India did it in Indian camps.

Oh BTW ISRO and DRDO always get some engineers from top universities. Issue is most of them do not last for more than 2-3 years. You can believe whatever you want to. Not everybody has guts to digest truth!!

So we don't have missiles, rockets, SSBN, ships, carrier, battle tank, fighter jet etc. I guess everything is CGI and photoshopped. Good to know.
 
That's quite misleading.

Both US and Europe will also be using F-16s, Gripen C/D, Mirage-2000 etc until the late 2040s and even the 2050s. So we have parity in that respect.

Russia, China and the US will continue to induct new 4th gen aircraft for quite sometime.

As for the limitations of LCA Mk1 and 1A in particular, it's fine within the limits of our environment where evne a less sophisticated aircraft like the Mig-21 is deadly. Also, we will have all LCA Mk1As with AESA radars and sensor fusion a few years before the Americans themselves get an equal number of F-16s with similar capability through an MLU program.

Furthermore, similar to our plans of buying MWF and MMRCA, the US is also purchasing new F-15s and SHs.
U.S. Air Force Buying 80 New F-15X Fighter Planes

US Navy orders additional 78 Super Hornets under $4B contract

And considering the ridiculous 10000 hour service life on SH and 20000 hours on the new F-15s, they will outlast our 4th gen jets. LCAs will be long gone by then.
USAF is primary/origin country operator of F16s and French air forces of Mirage 2000s.
And both USAF and French AF have been pushing F16s and Mirage 2000s in rear operations day by day as Rafale and F35 numbers keep getting increased. Doesn't mean much if they keep minimal numbers for low tempo ops/cold storage etc. Fact of the matter is these jets days are just getting over and passing into retirement age. And some people comparing those jets against the still in design phase indian prospective jets. What people don't realise is that by the time we reach from point A in history to point B in present (yet to Fully reach), USAF is already inducting fifth gen aircraft in big numbers and started working on sixth gen while France is working on fifth gen already.
 
Please explain why would a brilliant engineer work for DRDO or BEL when he can get 5 times more salary in India itself !! None of my batch mates including me, stayed back in public sector research labs. With all due respect to my ex-coworkers, only the bottommost performers are still hanging around there. They have no ambition of making money and at the same time they don't want to deliver anything either. It's the bitter truth.

In this world, you get what you pay for. Expecting world class results while paying peanuts is wishful thinking, same as comparing LM with DRDO !!
May I ask you a simple thing. The folks who do well in exam, who join likes Microsoft etc or those who skip their branches and join IT companies, if you put them in R&D will they produce better results?
Is this a fact or merely assumption?

Research as much as I have seen is not a game of smarts but a game of persistence.
 
USAF is primary/origin country operator of F16s and French air forces of Mirage 2000s.
And both USAF and French AF have been pushing F16s and Mirage 2000s in rear operations day by day as Rafale and F35 numbers keep getting increased. Doesn't mean much if they keep minimal numbers for low tempo ops/cold storage etc. Fact of the matter is these jets days are just getting over and passing into retirement age. And some people comparing those jets against the still in design phase indian prospective jets. What people don't realise is that by the time we reach from point A in history to point B in present (yet to Fully reach), USAF is already inducting fifth gen aircraft in big numbers and started working on sixth gen while France is working on fifth gen already.

Incorrect. The F-16s and M-2000s that the US and French use will not be used any different from the MWF. And MWF will be far more advanced than any version of the F-16 and M-2000. The technologies being developed for MWF are even more advanced than what's on the Gripen E. Would you believe me if I tell you the MWF will be competitive with the current version of the F-35?

Also, it doesn't matter if the US is inducting more 5th gen jets, we are not in competition with them. We are competing with Pakistan mostly. And China in a small way. So our funding and priorities will be based on what our enemies will bring. This is not a beauty contest. If the US was our enemy, obviously our funding and priorities would reflect that. For example, we would have signed up for FGFA long ago.

Also, 5th gen, 6th gen are all words. What matters is the technology that is actually used. MWF's avionics will be more advanced than the one on the F-35.
 
Uttam with GaN could enter service at the same time as Rafale comes with a GaN radar.
with how many T/R the UTTAM radar?
And the hardware is something, the software to drive the radar is another. You can't catch up years of fine tunning in a few months.
 
with how many T/R the UTTAM radar?

Currently 736, all GaAs, but that's only on the prototype. The production version will get GaN and more T/R modules.

And the hardware is something, the software to drive the radar is another. You can't catch up years of fine tunning in a few months.

We have developed a lot of experience working on AESA radars. We now have AESA radars at every level, from the smallest to the largest. The Netra AEWCS carries an Indian radar. And DRDO's QRSAM uses X band GaN modules. So a lot of software development has already been carried out.

Anyway, even if the radar will be ready in 2 years, the aircraft meant to carry the radar will take a lot of time.
 
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It's time, India must test LCA combat capability in real time scenario. Otherwise we will never know what it is capable of. It hardly takes any rocket science to understand this. Every country tests it's weapon somewhere in the world. Without that your machine holds no competency among others. That's basic marketing or technology proving step.
Before India went for Rafale, India observed it's capabilites in Libya, Migs were proven in Arab war and then in many other fronts.
 
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MWF loadout drawing

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