Tejas Mk2 (Medium Weight Fighter) - News and discussions

[randomradio]

Then this article is right?
Maybe extended to roll out by 2025
Production from 2028.

Anyways same was the plan before too..
Mk2 production following Mk1A isn't it?

Question is will 2-3 years enough for mk2 flight testing?

Don't get too worried about the specifics. Any effective warfighting capability will happen only around 2035. The same with AMCA, it will take until 2045 to get enough jets and trained pilots. Any delay will compensate in other aspects, like introduction of other technologies that were not planned on the initial roll-out, including software-unlocks that open up expected combat capabilities.

Yeah, 2-3 years is enough as long as they don't screw it up. The alternative is they will brag about how it's the world's best tested aircraft, just like the F-35. Even Arjun and ATAGS are now the world's best tested tank and artillery gun.

My personal date since many years has always been 2030 and looks like ADA is gonna meet my expectations. That's the best you can expect too. AMCA too, it's 9 years from first flight, without incident. Even though they used to claim 2032, my date has always been 2035. So if they get it flying in 2026, 2035 is the earliest possible date to achieve IOC. So that's at least around 2040 and beyond for FOC and a new engine. That takes us to 2045 to get warfighting capabilities.

So you're worried about first flight and IOC, but the IAF is more interested in FOC + 2 squadrons. Delays in the former can be made up by higher production speed for the latter.

 

[Sathya]

Don't get too worried about the specifics. Any effective warfighting capability will happen only around 2035. The same with AMCA, it will take until 2045 to get enough jets and trained pilots. Any delay will compensate in other aspects, like introduction of other technologies that were not planned on the initial roll-out, including software-unlocks that open up expected combat capabilities.

Yeah, 2-3 years is enough as long as they don't screw it up. The alternative is they will brag about how it's the world's best tested aircraft, just like the F-35. Even Arjun and ATAGS are now the world's best tested tank and artillery gun.

My personal date since many years has always been 2030 and looks like ADA is gonna meet my expectations. That's the best you can expect too. AMCA too, it's 9 years from first flight, without incident. Even though they used to claim 2032, my date has always been 2035. So if they get it flying in 2026, 2035 is the earliest possible date to achieve IOC. So that's at least around 2040 and beyond for FOC and a new engine. That takes us to 2045 to get warfighting capabilities.

So you're worried about first flight and IOC, but the IAF is more interested in FOC + 2 squadrons. Delays in the former can be made up by higher production speed for the latter.

Many new terms we are using it now like

Modular building with private players
Concurrent engineering
Minimum initial weapon integration
Iterative technology development from mk1A - Mk2 - Amca - tedbf

All those, still my belief in test flighting in 3 years is practically nil.

We are someone who delayed 2 years in just price negotiations for Mk1A.

 

[randomradio]

Many new terms we are using it now like

Modular building with private players
Concurrent engineering
Minimum initial weapon integration
Iterative technology development from mk1A - Mk2 - Amca - tedbf

All those, still my belief in test flighting in 3 years is practically nil.

We are someone who delayed 2 years in just price negotiations for Mk1A.

3 years is enough for Mk2 'cause enough prototypes have been planned. My 2035 date for 2 squadrons caters for other kinds of delays as well. Delivery has to start from 2033 for that to happen.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Many new terms we are using it now like

Modular building with private players
Concurrent engineering
Minimum initial weapon integration
Iterative technology development from mk1A - Mk2 - Amca - tedbf

All those, still my belief in test flighting in 3 years is practically nil.

We are someone who delayed 2 years in just price negotiations for Mk1A.

We seem to be forgetting that the metal cutting of Mk-2 started mid 2021. Plus some numbers of GE F-414 have been ordered & delivered late last yr IIRC . Thus we could very well see 1 prototype being built from residual sums of the FSED project funds allocated in 2009 . Fingers crossed .

PS - I quite distinctly recall RST spin yarns mid to late 2021 or was it early 2022 about how we can expect FOC of Mk-2 by 2028 & a squadron maybe 2 by 2030 . Now we have this . Anyway hope you're cheered up by RST's "uplifting" post .

 

[Chain Smoker]

We seem to be forgetting that the metal cutting of Mk-2 started mid 2021. Plus some numbers of GE F-414 have been ordered & delivered late last yr IIRC . Thus we could very well see 1 prototype being built from residual sums of the FSED project funds allocated in 2009 . Fingers crossed .

PS - I quite distinctly recall RST spin yarns mid to late 2021 or was it early 2022 about how we can expect FOC of Mk-2 by 2028 & a squadron maybe 2 by 2030 . Now we have this . Anyway hope you're cheered up by RST's "uplifting" post .

All the FSED money was already exhausted in 2019,even the CDR was done using internal funds post 2019 . So this news of metal cutting was bullshit . No work happened after completion of CDR for at least one yr bcz it didn't got CCS approval on time.

 

[Sathya]

We seem to be forgetting that the metal cutting of Mk-2 started mid 2021. Plus some numbers of GE F-414 have been ordered & delivered late last yr IIRC . Thus we could very well see 1 prototype being built from residual sums of the FSED project funds allocated in 2009 . Fingers crossed .

PS - I quite distinctly recall RST spin yarns mid to late 2021 or was it early 2022 about how we can expect FOC of Mk-2 by 2028 & a squadron maybe 2 by 2030 . Now we have this . Anyway hope you're cheered up by RST's "uplifting" post .

Even he couldn't help with Mk2 timelines.

I remember people posting 2022 roll out to 2028 production in 6 years is highly ambitious that even Gripen cannot do..

Metal cutting business I was totally annoyed, it happened many times with Mk2.

GE 414 deal also happened very long back.
Few samples were also delivered and didn't sign for the rest of 98 .
I doubt we ll get the engine at the price we signed long ago..


We should be pragmatic , order LCA sport variant with new cockpit like in Mk2 with large area display, side stick etc .

1 or 2 squads of sport after Mk1A production ends.

But we won't plan it now.

like nothing planned after production of K9, scorpene, we ll be in limbo. .

 

[_Anonymous_]

Well , then it's 2026 roll out , 2027 first flight , 2031 or 32 FOC & 2033 or 34 first production grade FA roll-out from mfg plant.

AMCA CDR which was to have been completed in Dec 2022 is expected to be thru by mid 2023 hopefully. Roll-out will happen 3 yrs after allocation of funds & first flight a yr after that which looks more like 2027-28 for the first flight & 5 yrs for FOC which effectively means the Mk-2 program of AMCA gets pushed to 2040-42 T/L .

WE seem to be getting good & better news in 2023 & the year's just begun . But 2028 is the new 2022 , remember y'all. It's official.

All the FSED money was already exhausted in 2019,even the CDR was done using internal funds post 2019 . So this news of metal cutting was bullshit . No work happened after completion of CDR for at least one yr bcz it didn't got CCS approval on time.

 

[Chain Smoker]

Well , then it's 2026 roll out , 2027 first flight , 2031 or 32 FOC & 2033 or 34 first production grade FA roll-out from mfg plant.

AMCA CDR which was to have been completed in Dec 2022 is expected to be thru by mid 2023 hopefully. Roll-out will happen 3 yrs after allocation of funds & first flight a yr after that which looks more like 2027-28 for the first flight & 5 yrs for FOC which effectively means the Mk-2 program of AMCA gets pushed to 2040-42 T/L .

WE seem to be getting good & better news in 2023 & the year's just begun . But 2028 is the new 2022 , remember y'all. It's official.

Considering how generous iaf is regarding indigenous weapons I bet testing won't complete before 2034, then add another 2-3 yrs for all the drama & sabotage by IAF( which they already did with mk1), then 2-3 yrs for negotiations and then another 2-3 yrs for delivery after contract so it will easily stretch to 2040.

 

[Hydra]

Considering how generous iaf is regarding indigenous weapons I bet testing won't complete before 2034, then add another 2-3 yrs for all the drama & sabotage by IAF( which they already did with mk1), then 2-3 yrs for negotiations and then another 2-3 yrs for delivery after contract so it will easily stretch to 2040.

Sabotage by IAF? If IAF denies MK2 in the year 2030, you cannot blame them for doing it. Inducting Mk2 post 2030 is like inducting mig29 today.

 

[Chain Smoker]

Sabotage by IAF? If IAF denies MK2 in the year 2030, you cannot blame them for doing it. Inducting Mk2 post 2030 is like inducting mig29 today.

Still it's their fault why they didn't finalised their requirements on time , that's why project dragged on for decade.

 

[randomradio]

Still it's their fault why they didn't finalised their requirements on time , that's why project dragged on for decade.
View attachment 26188

Requirements change based on threats. The fault happened in 1985, and the ones suffering for it now are this generation.

 

[Chain Smoker]

Requirements change based on threats. The fault happened in 1985, and the ones suffering for it now are this generation.

Even the future generations will continue to suffer .

 

[_Anonymous_]

Even he couldn't help with Mk2 timelines.

I remember people posting 2022 roll out to 2028 production in 6 years is highly ambitious that even Gripen cannot do..

Metal cutting business I was totally annoyed, it happened many times with Mk2.

GE 414 deal also happened very long back.
Few samples were also delivered and didn't sign for the rest of 98 .
I doubt we ll get the engine at the price we signed long ago..


We should be pragmatic , order LCA sport variant with new cockpit like in Mk2 with large area display, side stick etc .

1 or 2 squads of sport after Mk1A production ends.

But we won't plan it now.

like nothing planned after production of K9, scorpene, we ll be in limbo. .

Just here after seeing the recording of the IAH . S. Jha is insisting that ADA confirmed to him as late as last month that the revised schedule for the Mk-2 still stands at rollout Dec 2023 or first quarter 2024 followed by flight trails a yr later . He claims the leftover of the funds from the FSED part of the project was good enough for 1 prototype to be developed.

He also claims that the recent report which came out a few days ago pushing the program to 2025 & beyond could be a case of either misreporting or lost in translation.

In the event it still means we'd have just one plane to validate a whole host of technologies till 2026-27 which in itself could & would definitely delay the entire program & all this is because the CCS sanction didn't come for 2 yrs + & the funds haven't been disbursed up until now .

It seems we never learn . Most of this episode he spent griping on how both the MoD & the services had no appreciation whatsoever for the complexities of production & the dynamics of the supply chains placing orders on a piecemeal basis thereby pushing up the prices , hindering exports besides leading to unnecessary delays on account of time spent reviving dormant supply chains every now & then .

 

[Sathya]

Just here after seeing the recording of the IAH . S. Jha is insisting that ADA confirmed to him as late as last month that the revised schedule for the Mk-2 still stands at rollout Dec 2023 or first quarter 2024 followed by flight trails a yr later . He claims the leftover of the funds from the FSED part of the project was good enough for 1 prototype to be developed.

He also claims that the recent report which came out a few days ago pushing the program to 2025 & beyond could be a case of either misreporting or lost in translation.

In the event it still means we'd have just one plane to validate a whole host of technologies till 2026-27 which in itself could & would definitely delay the entire program & all this is because the CCS sanction didn't come for 2 yrs + & the funds haven't been disbursed up until now .

It seems we never learn . Most of this episode he spent griping on how both the MoD & the services had no appreciation whatsoever for the complexities of production & the dynamics of the supply chains placing orders on a piecemeal basis thereby pushing up the prices , hindering exports besides leading to unnecessary delays on account of time spent reviving dormant supply chains every now & then .

He needs to conduct indigenous appreciation hour every time controversy breaks out.

Early 2024 roll out is what Dr. Kamat has told in that interview too.

Having a platform by 2024 , followed by another in 2026, 27 & 28 - seems good to me.

Compared with Korea or Turkey, and our long experience in building fighters, I think we have lots of area to improve.

If all party were upto the mark, we could have achieved Mk2 in place of Mk1A.

Hopefully atleast in future , we improve at a better rate.

 

[randomradio]

He needs to conduct indigenous appreciation hour every time controversy breaks out.

Early 2024 roll out is what Dr. Kamat has told in that interview too.

Having a platform by 2024 , followed by another in 2026, 27 & 28 - seems good to me.

Compared with Korea or Turkey, and our long experience in building fighters, I think we have lots of area to improve.

If all party were upto the mark, we could have achieved Mk2 in place of Mk1A.

Hopefully atleast in future , we improve at a better rate.

Korea has received a lot of active assistance from the West, it's not all them. For example, they simply got a digital FBW from the US for the T-50. Even for KF-X they are receiving a lot of assistance.

 

[_Anonymous_]

He needs to conduct indigenous appreciation hour every time controversy breaks out.

Early 2024 roll out is what Dr. Kamat has told in that interview too.

Having a platform by 2024 , followed by another in 2026, 27 & 28 - seems good to me.

Compared with Korea or Turkey, and our long experience in building fighters, I think we have lots of area to improve.

If all party were upto the mark, we could have achieved Mk2 in place of Mk1A.

Hopefully atleast in future , we improve at a better rate.

It just struck me that even with FOC in 2029 , mfg won't commence immediately given our babudom. There's the certification , then there's the usual rites of AON , CCS clearance , price negotiations , etc post which the contract will be drawn up & signed post which it'd take 2-3 yrs for first roll out . Which means , even if the contract is signed in 2031 , the first FA roll out would be 2034 , which IMO defeats the purpose of the Mk-2

I'm trying to stick to as realistic a time schedule as possible without being overtly optimistic or cynical & going by past precedents. Ofcourse all this is assuming we don't slip up on tests & the ADA / HAL / DRDO stick to the schedule as per S Jha comments & that all these tests go relatively smoothly .

I think you need to confer with Resident ST coz honestly speaking even I find this bit of news depressing.

 

[randomradio]

It's concurrent engineering, F-35 style. First 20 jets will be contracted during flight testing itself, perhaps all 118 jets. Even LCA Mk1A, order for all 73 was contracted before flight testing began in May last year. So metal cutting will begin even before IOC is achieved.

Without concurrency, a 7-year process will be 10 in this case.

So, if the Mk2 starts flying in 2025, then if IOC is expected by 2028, we can start metal cutting of the first few jets in 2027, for delivery by 2030, followed by full scale deliveries in 2031 or 2032, with first squadron fully raised by 2032-33. The IAF will then have 2 squadrons, IOC and FOC each, before 2035, ie 8-10 years after first flight.

Even if the IAF delays things from their end, HAL doesn't need a contract to start manufacturing the first 2-4 SP jets.

 

[Hydra]

He needs to conduct indigenous appreciation hour every time controversy breaks out.

Early 2024 roll out is what Dr. Kamat has told in that interview too.

Having a platform by 2024 , followed by another in 2026, 27 & 28 - seems good to me.

Compared with Korea or Turkey, and our long experience in building fighters, I think we have lots of area to improve.

If all party were upto the mark, we could have achieved Mk2 in place of Mk1A.

Hopefully atleast in future , we improve at a better rate.

Dalals like hime are the real curse for armed force, these people let indian defense industries to sell paper project to military or sabotage modernisation by imports.

Korea has received a lot of active assistance from the West, it's not all them. For example, they simply got a digital FBW from the US for the T-50. Even for KF-X they are receiving a lot of assistance.

T50 is mere a training aircraft for soko, & Mk1/1a is a fighter jet or wanna be jet for IAF. The scary part is the fighter jet we designed lost to T50 in Malaysia, probably in Egypt too.

 

[Ankit Kumar]

The scary part is the fighter jet we designed lost to T50 in Malaysia, probably in Egypt too.

Egypt is looking for a K-8 subsonic trainer replacment. And Malaysia for Hawk subsonic trainer replacment.

An advanced trainer makes economic sense over proper fighter jet.

 

[randomradio]

T50 is mere a training aircraft for soko, & Mk1/1a is a fighter jet or wanna be jet for IAF. The scary part is the fighter jet we designed lost to T50 in Malaysia, probably in Egypt too.

Training aircraft or not, it uses the same tech as LCA.

Our offer was too overspec'd for Malaysia and Egypt. Also more expensive, probably why we lost.