Tejas Mk2 (Medium Weight Fighter) - News and discussions

[randomradio]

If you put it that way, the F 404 is from the 1970s，India is also using it,
I'm just surprised the Indians are so greedy, even Korea didn't get the license to make the F 414, India fantasizes about getting 100% of his technology transfer,
The aero-engine is the jewel of every country's industry, and it will not be transferred unless it is the closest ally

Greed or influence?

The US considers India important enough, more so than Korea or Sweden. Plus the deal will be for hundreds of engines, at least 500 engines in total.

Furthermore, they are interested in helping India develop a next gen engine, and the intellectual property and technology of the new engine will belong to India in its entirety, it's for AMCA. Both contracts are being studied by the US govt for clearance. UK and France are competing for the second project.

 

[LX1111]

Greed or influence?

The US considers India important enough, more so than Korea or Sweden. Plus the deal will be for hundreds of engines, at least 500 engines in total.

Furthermore, they are interested in helping India develop a next gen engine, and the intellectual property and technology of the new engine will belong to India in its entirety, it's for AMCA. Both contracts are being studied by the US govt for clearance. UK and France are competing for the second project.

Well, good luck, if you believe you can get all the F 414 technology with 500 engines, When India bought 300 Su 30，Did India get the AL 31 technology? India just got the assembly line.Besides, India is not an ally of the US, so the US is not worried about India secretly selling technology to Russia?

 

[randomradio]

Well, good luck, if you believe you can get all the F 414 technology with 500 engines, When India bought 300 Su 30，Did India get the AL 31 technology? India just got the assembly line.

The era is different. In 2000, India was a $450B economy, today it's $3.5T. With the same rate of growth, in 20 years India will be worth $27T. Also, India is the only country today that has the ability to invade China, and that is bound to further improve. So the US sees India as China's natural competitor. This deal will only help cement US-India ties.

Another reason is the French have offered 100% of both the Rafale's airframe and engine to India. AMCA's engine requirements are high enough that if the US wants to take it seriously, then giving up a previous gen F414 tech won't be a problem for them. Or we will manufacture F414 with 60% ToT, as agreed before, and the AMCA engine deal will go to either France or the UK, which the US will see as a major failure. It's because signing large defence deals with India is becoming less and less likely due to indigenous weapons development.

As for the Flanker, we manufacture 85% of the engine. It's not just assembly.

HAL hands over Sukhoi engine to IAF

The AL31FP engine powers Su30 MKI fighter aircraft

www.governancenow.com

“The AL31FP engine powers Su30 MKI and is manufactured from raw material stage. All the components, including heavy forging,s are manufactured at HAL,” said HAL CMD T Suvarna Raju.

Besides, India is not an ally of the US, so the US is not worried about India secretly selling technology to Russia?

That was never a problem. Indian MIC doesn't do any copyright infringement, nor do they reverse engineer by policy, let alone sell foreign technology to someone else, which has never happened. We have a very good name, which is why foreign companies want to cooperate with us.

Plus the Russians already have superior engine tech.

 

[LX1111]

The era is different. In 2000, India was a $450B economy, today it's $3.5T. With the same rate of growth, in 20 years India will be worth $27T. Also, India is the only country today that has the ability to invade China, and that is bound to further improve. So the US sees India as China's natural competitor. This deal will only help cement US-India ties

I think you're being overly optimistic, not to mention the economy, I don't know much about economics
I don't understand，How did you come to the conclusion that India has the ability to invade China?

 

[LX1111]

Another reason is the French have offered 100% of both the Rafale's airframe and engine to India. AMCA's engine requirements are high enough that if the US wants to take it seriously, then giving up a previous gen F414 tech won't be a problem for them. Or we will manufacture F414 with 60% ToT, as agreed before, and the AMCA engine deal will go to either France or the UK, which the US will see as a major failure. It's because signing large defence deals with India is becoming less and less likely due to indigenous weapons development.

As for the Flanker, we manufacture 85% of the engine. It's not just assembly

You put India too high, India AMCA life and death have any impact for the United States? the simplest solution, let India line up to buy F 35,I think the US would like to see the Indian aviation industry die and then take over the market,As for the rest, how do you conclude that the UK is willing to transfer EJ 200 technology to India? I'm afraid you have to pay a lot of money to ask someone to do a technical guidance, how can they give you their core technology.

 

[LX1111]

That was never a problem. Indian MIC doesn't do any copyright infringement, nor do they reverse engineer by policy, let alone sell foreign technology to someone else, which has never happened. We have a very good name, which is why foreign companies want to cooperate with us.

Plus the Russians already have superior engine tech

Then I wish India could rely on these foreign technologies to improve its poor engine,After all, India so respects intellectual property that it is still waiting to experiment in the corner of Russia

“The AL31FP engine powers Su30 MKI and is manufactured from raw material stage. All the components, including heavy forging,s are manufactured at HAL,” said HAL CMD T Suvarna Raju.

Then please refuel India and try to add some thrust to the AL 31 instead of using the poor 12,500 kn

“The AL31FP engine powers Su30 MKI and is manufactured from raw material stage. All the components, including heavy forging,s are manufactured at HAL,” said HAL CMD T Suvarna Raju.

Then please refuel India and try to add some thrust to the AL 31 instead of using the poor 12,500 kn

 

[Hydra]

If this is the attitude of GOI ,IAF will be completely become obsolete even against Bangladesh.

 

[randomradio]

I think you're being overly optimistic, not to mention the economy, I don't know much about economics
I don't understand，How did you come to the conclusion that India has the ability to invade China?

Economy was quite a bit pessimistic actually, but the number includes inflation. You can cut it by half for current prices. So about where China is today. Makes sense right? We are 15-20 years behind China, so in that much time, we will be where China is today.

We have an army with offensive units meant to invade Chinese territory.

You put India too high, India AMCA life and death have any impact for the United States? the simplest solution, let India line up to buy F 35,I think the US would like to see the Indian aviation industry die and then take over the market,As for the rest, how do you conclude that the UK is willing to transfer EJ 200 technology to India? I'm afraid you have to pay a lot of money to ask someone to do a technical guidance, how can they give you their core technology.

India isn't interested in importing, and all three countries wish to be India's primary partners in this program.

Both UK and France have shown willingness to part with whatever it takes to sell India this tech. General Electric has shown the same willingness, but it's up to the US govt.

US, UK Compete To Co-Develop Engine For India's Next Generation Fighter Aircraft

India's search for a partner to co-develop a powerful jet engine for its next generation combat fighter has led to a competition between the UK and the US, as discussions with France have remained stalled for seven years

swarajyamag.com

"What the UK is committed to is the biggest ever capability transfer in history. This means ensuring that the engine that is co-created would be to Indian specifications and if India wants to export it, that would be a matter entirely for India to decide," UK minister for defence procurement Alex Chalk was quoted by the Economic Times as saying.

We propose full technology transfer for engine to power next gen fighters: French manufacturer Safran

Our technologies make France one of the four countries in the world to master the complete development of a fighter jet engine. And if India needs us on this particularly strategic field, we will be there. Safran is definitely ready for a partnership with India, with the full support of the...

economictimes.indiatimes.com

The air force has mandated that the AMCA should have an indigenous engine after the first two squadrons. Is that an achievable goal and how can a French partnership work for this?
The development of an indigenous fighter jet engine is a key factor for strategic autonomy. If India chooses to cooperate with France in this field, we will be delighted and honoured to make our contribution. We are ready to propose a full transfer of technology and know-how. That is the strength of our partnership.

US Revives Offer To Co-develop AMCA Fighter Jet Engine With India

American turnaround overrides “export control” concerns which aborted an earlier bid for collaboration on jet engine technology through DTTI in 2019, , AMCA, general electric, GE-F414, GE-F414 EPE, drdo, ADA, Safran, rolls royce, TEDBF, LCA Mk-2

www.businessworld.in

As for F414:

American GE working with India on jet engines for LCA, AMCA

US GE is open to the transfer of technology to India for the indigenous manufacture of engines for light combat aircraft LCA Mark2 by 2028 as it does not want to lose a big market o Europe.

economictimes.indiatimes.com

Kamat said the engines would be manufactured indigenously once the clearance comes through from the US government. He said that the matter was discussed during National Security Adviser Ajit Doval's visit to the United States.

"The matter was discussed during our NSA (Ajit Doval's) recent US visit. The US government said it was open to it (indigenous manufacture of engines). Hopefully, in the next 3-6 months, an announcement of the transfer of technology will happen and these engines would be made in the country itself," he said.

 

[LX1111]

I don't want to argue with you, let's see if India can get the full F 414 technology, after all, don't have that condition， The Indian Parliament would not give Tejas Mk 2 funding for research and development,

Economy was quite a bit pessimistic actually, but the number includes inflation. You can cut it by half for current prices. So about where China is today. Makes sense right? We are 15-20 years behind China, so in that much time, we will be where China is today.

We have an army with offensive units meant to invade Chinese territory.



India isn't interested in importing, and all three countries wish to be India's primary partners in this program.

Both UK and France have shown willingness to part with whatever it takes to sell India country itself," he said

Can only say good luck, after all, at least the next 5-10 years, India can come up with a new aircraft only Tejas Mk 1A, After all, it's not hard to change An Israeli radar

 

[randomradio]

Then I wish India could rely on these foreign technologies to improve its poor engine,After all, India so respects intellectual property that it is still waiting to experiment in the corner of Russia

We are doing that, and we are doing that with very little money.

Example:

https://www.safran-group.com/products-services/ardiden-1h1-shakti-engine-indian-dhruv-helicopter

HAL is cooperating with GE to produce ship engines too.

INS Vikrant to be powered by GE Marine’s LM2500 gas turbine engines - ET Infra

India’s first indigenously manufactured aircraft carrier INS Vikrant, which is being commissioned by Prime Minister Narendra Modi on Friday will be powered by four LM2500 marine gas turbine engines, manufactured by GE Marine and assembled by state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.

infra.economictimes.indiatimes.com

“For more than 30 years, GE has worked with HAL, which assembles, inspects, and tests all LM2500 gas turbines built for the Indian Navy. The LM2500 gas turbine kits were manufactured at GE's Evendale, Ohio, facility and assembled and tested
by HAL's Industrial & Marine Gas Turbine Division in Bangalore, India,” said GE Marine.

https://hal-india.co.in/HAL%20Produced%20Gas%20Turbines%20Power%20India%E2%80%99s%20Pride%20INS%20Vikrant/ND__390

IAC is powered by four General Electric LM2500 Gas Turbines supplied by HAL. These Gas Turbines were assembled and tested at HAL’s dedicated facility at Bangalore. With the power of 88 MW and top speed of 28 Knots, INS Vikrant is truly enhancing the maritime capability of India.

We are probably using our cooperation with Russia to negotiate with the West.

Then please refuel India and try to add some thrust to the AL 31 instead of using the poor 12,500 kn

MKI has not seen any weight increase for it to require a thrust upgrade. Any new avionics additions have been offset by weight reduction measures.

But whether the engine will be upgraded or replaced is yet to be seen.

 

[Ashwin]

Is there something getting missed in translation? Or cultural?

Its a manufacturing ToT which they have with multiple countries. We have the same for AL-31.

Just because we manufacture it does not give us the right to increase thrust or clone new stuff out of it.

Then I wish India could rely on these foreign technologies to improve its poor engine,After all, India so respects intellectual property that it is still waiting to experiment in the corner of Russia

Then please refuel India and try to add some thrust to the AL 31 instead of using the poor 12,500 kn

Then please refuel India and try to add some thrust to the AL 31 instead of using the poor 12,500 kn

 

[randomradio]

I don't want to argue with you, let's see if India can get the full F 414 technology, after all, don't have that condition， The Indian Parliament would not give Tejas Mk 2 funding for research and development,

Govt is apparently waiting for US clearance for more clarity.

Can only say good luck, after all, at least the next 5-10 years, India can come up with a new aircraft only Tejas Mk 1A, After all, it's not hard to change An Israeli radar

China started its J-10 effort in the early 1980s and came with up a product only in 2003. India started in the early 1990s and came up with a product in 2013. The timelines seem similar.

 

[LX1111]

China started its J-10 effort in the early 1980s and came with up a product only in 2003. India started in the early 1990s and came up with a product in 2013. The timelines seem similar

If the Tejas Mk 1A enters service in 2025 according to India's timetable, this could be achieved, after all, simple, But for now, it is doubtful that the Tejas Mk 2 will be ready for service in 2028.I heard they also improved the aerodynamic shape in the wind tunnel at France this year
For now, the IAF is on its own for the next 10 years, I hope does HAL not delay, otherwise the Indian Air Force and the PLAAF will not only open the gap, but also let the PAF technology leading situation

 

[Rajput Lion]

If the Tejas Mk 1A enters service in 2025 according to India's timetable, this could be achieved, after all, simple,

Tejas MK1A is entering service next year. There might be few months delay, but that's it.

But for now, it is doubtful that the Tejas Mk 2 will be ready for service in 2028.

Without definitive engine deal, it could be delayed.

heard they also improved the aerodynamic shape in the wind tunnel at France this year

That was just for certification.

For now, the IAF is on its own for the next 10 years, I hope does HAL not delay, otherwise the Indian Air Force and the PLAAF will not only open the gap, but also let the PAF technology leading situation

Gap is in numbers regarding PLAAF. Tech wise, there is nothing in PLAAF arsenal that can touch Rafale. Hopefully, a new deal is signed soon for local manufacturing of 90 plus Rafales for both IAF and IN.

We may order more MK1As if MK2 is delayed. MK1A with Astra 2/Derby ER is going to be a very dangerous foe in BVR due to its small size/RCS and very good AESA radar plus GaN EW suite.

 

[RASALGHUL]

Tech wise, there is nothing in PLAAF arsenal that can touch Rafale

Lol! Really, Not Even J-20 with new Engines.

 

[LX1111]

We may order more MK1As if MK2 is delayed. MK1A with Astra 2/Derby ER is going to be a very dangerous foe in BVR due to its small size/RCS and very good AESA radar plus GaN EW suite

Even with these new missiles, tejas MK1A performance is roughly comparable to JF17block3,

 

[LX1111]

Gap is in numbers regarding PLAAF. Tech wise, there is nothing in PLAAF arsenal that can touch Rafale. Hopefully, a new deal is signed soon for local manufacturing of 90 plus Rafales for both IAF and IN.

Rafale is a bad discussion matter, at least I and most Chinese think Rafale is a higher thrust J10C,As for Rafale's proud ECM capabilities, I don't think it's necessary to cram too much ECM equipment into a front-line fighter with the J16D and Y9G

 

[Hydra]

Gap is in numbers regarding PLAAF. Tech wise, there is nothing in PLAAF arsenal that can touch Rafale.

Ok, thank you.
Next please

 

[randomradio]

If the Tejas Mk 1A enters service in 2025 according to India's timetable, this could be achieved, after all, simple, But for now, it is doubtful that the Tejas Mk 2 will be ready for service in 2028.I heard they also improved the aerodynamic shape in the wind tunnel at France this year
For now, the IAF is on its own for the next 10 years, I hope does HAL not delay, otherwise the Indian Air Force and the PLAAF will not only open the gap, but also let the PAF technology leading situation

It doesn't change the fact that both countries took roughly the same amount of time to come out with a modern jet.

The IAF will take a long time to close the gap with PLAAF, but they don't have any real issues with PAF. Pakistan's military has given up any hope of challenging India anytime soon. They have to fix their country first.

 

[randomradio]

Even with these new missiles, tejas MK1A performance is roughly comparable to JF17block3,

JF-17 is a modernised J-7. LCA Mk1/A is in the same category as Eurocanards, like the Gripen. Its airframe specifications are a generation ahead, even more so than Gripen too.

The tempo of operations the PAF is used to, having operated Western aircraft like the F-16 and Mirage III/V, the JF-17 will start falling apart after just 2-3 days of fighting. It will then take 2 or 3 JF-17s just to match the air presence of 1 LCA.

In terms of general capabilities, like range, payload, basic performance etc, the JF-17, J-10 and LCA Mk1/A are similar. LCA takes the lead in some areas, J-10 takes the lead in some others, JF-17 is perpetually at the bottom in pretty much all categories.