Twin-Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF)

Didn't know ACM Raha was a fanboy. I learn new things every day.

Anyway, "he said medium, he sees Rafale".

When he made the comment, in 2016, MWF didn't even exist.

Let's get the actual quote, shall we?

December 29, 2016
“But we have just ordered 36 aircraft and we require more aircraft i
n this middle weight category to give entire spectrum of capability,” he said,

He refers to the Rafale and other twin-engine aircraft of its class. You see, there is another middle weight category, and that was the Gripen/F-16 back during Raha's days, which is the main reason he visited Sweden.

So how can Raha be talking about MWF when it didn't exist until 2 years after he left office? Common sense, dude.
No, I'm calling you the fanboy.

I don't know what's so confusing here. Airforce realized they won't be getting even the 126 (MMRCA) of overpriced Rafales let alone 200+. Thus they explored the possibility of single-engine medium fighters. Now they are betting on MRFA under the strategic partnership program. Which MoD will drag on for few more years before having any real decision to move forward or scrap. In the next 5 years they could order a few more rafale squadrons as a follow-on order. That's it!. And yet here you are talking about 200+ rafales.


The redesign of LCA mk2 began during 2014. Of course, the airforce chief was aware of its existence.
 
No, I'm calling you the fanboy.

I'm pretty sure you are referring to Raha. Since it was Raha's claim, not mine. After all, I didn't decide IAF wants 200+ Rafales, it was Raha.

I don't know what's so confusing here. Airforce realized they won't be getting even the 126 (MMRCA) of overpriced Rafales let alone 200+. Thus they explored the possibility of single-engine medium fighters. Now they are betting on MRFA under the strategic partnership program. Which MoD will drag on for few more years before having any real decision to move forward or scrap. In the next 5 years they could order a few more rafale squadrons as a follow-on order. That's it!. And yet here you are talking about 200+ rafales.


Nope. The air force realised Rafale class will be too expensive, so they switched sights to Gripen class. Then Gripen class switched to MWF, so now Rafale class is back on.

There will be MRFA for Rafale class, starting with 114 jets and climbing to 150-250 over the years. And then there's the MWF. Both are separate requirements.

Our current Chief has already made it very clear.

Bhadauria said Monday that the list of aircraft planned to be inducted by the IAF includes 36 Rafales, 114 multirole fighter aircraft, 100 advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) and over 200 LCAs in different variants.

However, IAF chief Bhadauria told news agency ANI Monday: “This project (114 jets) is in the middle-weight and is in the Rafale class, in this issue, we will deal with it in the Make in India region, with an increase in FDI, with support to the private sector. I think in future this will bring in technology which is required to support the aviation sector. I think it is important to have another generation of aircraft in terms of capability, technology as we go along (sic).”


It literally doesn't get any clearer than this. Literally, like it's in your face. Right there. You can't miss it.

Again, there are two separate programs. One for 114 Rafale and the other for 118 MWF/LCA Mk2. This requirement has been since the last 2 decades. Hasn't changed.

The redesign of LCA mk2 began during 2014. Of course, the airforce chief was aware of its existence.

Nope. The configuration itself was finalised in 2018.

What you are referring to is the first modification of the Mk2, which wasn't all that great. There were three main modifications, and the third one became MWF in 2018. Then came the PDP stage. Until its finalisation in 2018, it didn't exist. It wasn't even vapourware when Raha was in office.

EFo_KrfUUAM2LIR.png


In fact it's because the IAF under Raha released the requirement for a Gripen/F-16 class fighter that ADA responded with MWF to replace it. Only in 2018 the govt backed out of the Gripen/F-16 tender and supported Rafale class tender once ADA decided to pursue MWF. Ever since 2018, the medium weight category publicly branched off into two different fighter jets.

So when we talk about MRFA today, it's about Rafale vs Typhoon all over again. If MRFA is going to be scrapped, according to you, then the full 200 jet requirement will have to come in as a single vendor GTG. But then I agree with this rather than the tender. The MoD wanted GTG for 90 jets whereas the IAF wants a tender. I'd definitely agree that the tender should be cancelled and those "few" squadrons you mentioned, numbering at least 9 according to me, should come in through GTG. But then I'm fine with a tender as well, the delay will allow the induction of the Rafale F4.2 instead of the F3R or F4.1.

I hope this ends this stupid discussion. It's been going on for the last 4 years now.
 
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The dates are not sequential though. The project did not get approval because govt decided to wait for ADA to finish LCA and then approve the project. And after FGFA was cancelled, they changed ASR.
All your projects are like that, there are always challenges or reasons to restart from scratch or to stop. This is partly why Indian time is 8X
 
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I'm pretty sure you are referring to Raha. Since it was Raha's claim, not mine. After all, I didn't decide IAF wants 200+ Rafales, it was Raha.
No raha, said medium fighter not rafale.

Nope. The air force realised Rafale class will be too expensive, so they switched sights to Gripen class. Then Gripen class switched to MWF, so now Rafale class is back on.

There will be MRFA for Rafale class, starting with 114 jets and climbing to 150-250 over the years. And then there's the MWF. Both are separate requirements.

Our current Chief has already made it very clear.
Hilarious, where exactly the current chief said 150-250 over the years? Here Chief is saying they are not clear and its under discussion with various stakeholders. As i said, Your confidence in predicting decades from now is always admirable.

Nope. The configuration itself was finalised in 2018.
I said, redesign started 2014. You are saying finalised. We both are right.



Here is the ADA chief explaining how the program become MWF from the reengining of Mk1.

"Somewhere in 2014-15 IAF decided to by LCA Mk1A so There was no longer a need for mig-21 replacement. So we redesigned to MWF as a replacement for Mirage class with MTOW 17.5ton"

So when we talk about MRFA today, it's about Rafale vs Typhoon all over again. If MRFA is going to be scrapped, according to you, then the full 200 jet requirement will have to come in as a single vendor GTG.
The ridiculous level of confidence to make such claims as if its directly from MoD/IAF HQ. Even they don't know whats going to happen. These are just your conjectures. If it is going to be Rafale vs EF then it won't be finalized next 5 years. That is something we have to learn from MMRCA or any other fighter procurement. Expecting the numbers to reach 200+in this decade at this point is just fanboyism.
 
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All your projects are like that, there are always challenges or reasons to restart from scratch or to stop. This is partly why Indian time is 8X

The issue is requirements change because the funding is not secure. But you need to consider the time after project starts. For example, the official PDP phase of AMCA started only in 2015. Before 2015, it was all simply hype. And detailed design stage began only last year in Feb. So now we have a paper design.

Another problem is that the ADA is handling too many projects, so it's a problem for the govt also to make funds available, not counting ADA distributing resources at other projects. Apart from LCA Mk2 and AMCA, during the same time ADA also designed the IUSAV, so resources were split between two stealth programs at the same time. And we do not yet know if there are other programs also in the mix, for example, ADA could be delivering their stealth expertise to other DRDO labs for future missiles.

So all that you are seeing are issues relating to an industry that's still not mature doing a lot of things at once, and at the same time being funded by a country that's still too poor to execute all these projects at the same time.
 
No raha, said medium fighter not rafale.

Yeah, bro, you decide what he's talking about. No one else, not even Raha.

Hilarious, where exactly the current chief said 150-250 over the years? Here Chief is saying they are not clear and its under discussion with various stakeholders. As i said, Your confidence in predicting decades from now is always admirable.

That's how our production programs are. 114 is merely the initial requirement.

I said, redesign started 2014. You are saying finalised. We both are right.

Wah, bhai. Redesign started even before configuration was finalised.

Only in your world you eat food even before it's cooked.

Here is the ADA chief explaining how the program become MWF from the reengining of Mk1.

"Somewhere in 2014-15 IAF decided to by LCA Mk1A so There was no longer a need for mig-21 replacement. So we redesigned to MWF as a replacement for Mirage class with MTOW 17.5ton"

Yeah, he's talking about the time after Raha left office. I'm pretty sure I know the story better than you do.

The ridiculous level of confidence to make such claims as if its directly from MoD/IAF HQ. Even they don't know whats going to happen. These are just your conjectures. If it is going to be Rafale vs EF then it won't be finalized next 5 years. That is something we have to learn from MMRCA or any other fighter procurement. Expecting the numbers to reach 200+in this decade at this point is just fanboyism.

How did 200+ requirement suddenly change into "in this decade"? No one said we are going to get 200+ Rafale and 200+ MWF "in this decade". Is this your best attempt at wriggling out of the hole you have dug yourself into?

The requirement is for 200+ Rafale and 200+ MWF. Two separate requirements. If you understood simple facts about geography and how the IAF plans to distribute their forces, this is a pretty normal force structure for their primary frontline aircraft.

The IAF plans to reach those numbers over a very long period of time, at 12 Rafales per year and 16 MWF per year, not counting parallel inductions of Rafale from French factories, like it was done for MKI. So now you do the math for how long it will take. You will get a more realistic date.

Anyway, at the very least, now, after 4 years, you have finally understood the extent of our requirements. Back in 2015-16 I could only back up my claim of SE MII and TE MII with my word. Now the requirement for both is all public knowledge.
 
All your projects are like that, there are always challenges or reasons to restart from scratch or to stop. This is partly why Indian time is 8X
Are you seriously kidding? What indian time? If you think a developing country under $4 billion dollar able to develop a 4th /4+ SE gen fighter within 15 years time period since the first flight is a bad thing, then you are delusional.

It is indeed Indian time, no one else capable to do such thing. A developed country had to spend $15 billion to get similar know how & know why and then rollout a prototype.

It is not 8x, it is actually a marvelous job that ADA has done.
 
Presidents II Russia latest version of which is fitted in Su57
Leonardo from Rahul’s Nanihal
ATIRCM BAE ( in most European fighter jets and Hepters including F35 and Apache)
LAIRCM Northrop Grumman

Question : @randomradio @Gautam @others do we have anything similar in our fleet

And any project to develop something similar for Mk2/MWF/TEDBF/ORCA/AMCA ? Or as Lca-fan-bhai said a slingshot and a functional ejection sheet is enough for IAF pilots.


@Bon Plan does France uses any DIRCM in rafale ? And Eurofighter ?
 
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Presidents II Russia latest version of which is fitted in Su57
Leonardo from Rahul’s Nanihal
ATIRCM BAE ( in most European fighter jets and Hepters including F35 and Apache)
LAIRCM Northrop Grumman

Question : @randomradio @Gautam @others do we have anything similar in our fleet

And any project to develop something similar for Mk2/MWF/TEDBF/ORCA/AMCA ? Or as Lca-fan-bhai said a slingshot and a functional ejection sheet is enough for IAF pilots.


@Bon Plan does France uses any DIRCM in rafale ? And Eurofighter ?
Why are you posting this on the TEDBF thread?
 
Presidents II Russia latest version of which is fitted in Su57
Leonardo from Rahul’s Nanihal
ATIRCM BAE ( in most European fighter jets and Hepters including F35 and Apache)
LAIRCM Northrop Grumman

Question : @randomradio @Gautam @others do we have anything similar in our fleet

And any project to develop something similar for Mk2/MWF/TEDBF/ORCA/AMCA ? Or as Lca-fan-bhai said a slingshot and a functional ejection sheet is enough for IAF pilots.


@Bon Plan does France uses any DIRCM in rafale ? And Eurofighter ?

DIRCMs have been used for decades, but mainly in transports, helicopters and some types of strike aircraft. On air superiority fighter jets the tech is still in its infancy, so right now only PAK FA and Rafale are getting it over the next few years as far as we know as of today. Elisra is making it available for our fighter jets as well. DRDO is working with the Israelis here.
 
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