Ukraine - Russia Conflict

To put things in perspective, in Vietnam the US lost 58,000 people, 47,000 in combat. That lasted 8 years, that's about 7,250 per year.

The Korean War lasted 3 years, 170,000 allies were killed. That's about 4,700/month.

Putin has lost >13,000 in 23 days.
To put things into perspective Ho Chi Minh declared that even if he's to sacrifice 2-3 million more, he could afford to do it but the US could never afford to sacrifice 50 k more.

To put things into perspective that's precisely what the Talibunnies did to the US yet again 5 decades later.

To once again put things into perspective SU lost 20 million of it's people as against an equal number of Germans on all fronts or probably lesser , yet won the war .

To put things into perspective China & N Korea lost ~ 2 million yet brought the war to a stalemate.
 
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Source BBC: The three Russian astronauts just arrived on the International Space Station.

:p
 
Why it's happening always with Russia weapons? If some illiterate Mujahideen can use western weapons successfully without training in 90s,and now Ukranians too, there is clearly an advantages with weapon design.

It has more to do with circumstances.

The SU left Afghanistan because their country was collapsing. The Ukrainians are doing well because the Russians are not really fighting, they are just standing around getting shot at, while the enemy is using weapons that the West created to counter old Cold War tech that the Russians are using today.

It's no different from how our Mig-21 shot down PAF's F-16. The Mig-21's weapon was a generation ahead compared to the F-16's basic design. Only later designs really had the ability to counter it. So in Ukraine, they are using 3rd gen Javelins and NLAWs which are a generation ahead compared to Russia's Cold War era armour which has only been designed to defeat 2nd gen ATGMs. The counter to that is artillery and helicopters, but RA is not using either one properly in Ukraine.

In the Iraq War, the Iraqis were two generations behind the Americans. Iraqi generals were bribed, so they gave up and retreated into Syria.

Otoh, look how quickly the Taliban took control of Afghanistan even though the ANA were a generation ahead with Western weapons.

India has done very well against Pakistan with Russian weapons. Particularly 1971.

Plus the Soviet Union kept their clients a generation behind themselves. And after its dissolution, even the Russians have fallen behind by a generation. But their modernisation plan will give them a generation advantage over the coming decade against NATO.

In India's context, we accept what works, like the S-400 and AK-203, and reject what we think is not good enough, like the Pantsir and Amur. So we preferred Biho over Pantsir, or Rafale over Mig-35, but we will likely prefer S-550 over AEGIS. And if it's good enough, we will pick Indian over import. We are choosing whatever works best for us at that moment, be it Russian, Western or Indian.

SoKo prefers to work with Russia when it comes to missiles because the Russians are really good at it. So SoKo's new SAMs and BMs are based on Russian designs. They also have a JV with Russia for Brahmos. So importers have to mix and match when they have the opportunity. Not one country makes the best of everything.
 
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It has more to do with circumstances.

The SU left Afghanistan because their country was collapsing. The Ukrainians are doing well because the Russians are not really fighting, they are just standing around getting shot at, while the enemy is using weapons that the West created to counter old Cold War tech that the Russians are using today.

It's no different from how our Mig-21 shot down PAF's F-16. The Mig-21's weapon was a generation ahead compared to the F-16's basic design. Only later designs really had the ability to counter it. So in Ukraine, they are using 3rd gen Javelins and NLAWs which are a generation ahead compared to Russia's Cold War era armour which has only been designed to defeat 2nd gen ATGMs. The counter to that is artillery and helicopters, but RA is not using either one properly in Ukraine.

In the Iraq War, the Iraqis were two generations behind the Americans. Iraqi generals were bribed, so they gave up and retreated into Syria.

Otoh, look how quickly the Taliban took control of Afghanistan even though the ANA were a generation ahead with Western weapons.

India has done very well against Pakistan with Russian weapons. Particularly 1971.

Plus the Soviet Union kept their clients a generation behind themselves. And after its dissolution, even the Russians have fallen behind by a generation. But their modernisation plan will give them a generation advantage over the coming decade against NATO.

In India's context, we accept what works, like the S-400 and AK-203, and reject what we think is not good enough, like the Pantsir and Amur. So we preferred Biho over Pantsir, or Rafale over Mig-35, but we will likely prefer S-550 over AEGIS. And if it's good enough, we will pick Indian over import. We are choosing whatever works best for us at that moment, be it Russian, Western or Indian.

SoKo prefers to work with Russia when it comes to missiles because the Russians are really good at it. So SoKo's new SAMs and BMs are based on Russian designs. They also have a JV with Russia on Brahmos. So importers have to mix and match when they have the opportunity. Not one country makes the best of everything.
We won 1971 because of many factors, u accept it or not the Mukti fighters had played a crucial role.. Also we used British Gnat,Canberra & Sea hawk to pound Pakistanis from air. British centurion Tanks, & British designed howitzers in ground. And recon service by French origin Alize ( @Picdelamirand-oil are you aware about its role in 71 war). So basically we won 71 war with the help of western weapons. The missile attack on Karachi is done with Russian one, i do agree with that.

In 1999 which platforms played crucial role? Its the job of Swedish howitzer, French fighter & Israeli targeting pods. Now tell me which battle we had won exclusively with Russian weapons?
 
And recon service by French origin Alize ( @Picdelamirand-oil are you aware about its role in 71 war).
The Alizé had the same radar as the Atlantic (ATL1).
Indian Alizés were used for reconnaissance and patrol missions during the operation to liberate Goa from the Portuguese in December 1961. They were also used for anti-submarine warfare missions during the third Indo-Pakistan war in 1971. During this conflict, an Alizé was shot down by an F-104 Starfighter of the Pakistani Air Force.
 
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The Pope also rejected the term “special military operation”—a phrase used by Russia which says that its intention is to demilitarise and “de-Nazify” its neighbour rather than occupying the territory.
 
It has more to do with circumstances.

The SU left Afghanistan because their country was collapsing. The Ukrainians are doing well because the Russians are not really fighting, they are just standing around getting shot at, while the enemy is using weapons that the West created to counter old Cold War tech that the Russians are using today.

It's no different from how our Mig-21 shot down PAF's F-16. The Mig-21's weapon was a generation ahead compared to the F-16's basic design. Only later designs really had the ability to counter it. So in Ukraine, they are using 3rd gen Javelins and NLAWs which are a generation ahead compared to Russia's Cold War era armour which has only been designed to defeat 2nd gen ATGMs. The counter to that is artillery and helicopters, but RA is not using either one properly in Ukraine.

In the Iraq War, the Iraqis were two generations behind the Americans. Iraqi generals were bribed, so they gave up and retreated into Syria.

Otoh, look how quickly the Taliban took control of Afghanistan even though the ANA were a generation ahead with Western weapons.

India has done very well against Pakistan with Russian weapons. Particularly 1971.

Plus the Soviet Union kept their clients a generation behind themselves. And after its dissolution, even the Russians have fallen behind by a generation. But their modernisation plan will give them a generation advantage over the coming decade against NATO.

In India's context, we accept what works, like the S-400 and AK-203, and reject what we think is not good enough, like the Pantsir and Amur. So we preferred Biho over Pantsir, or Rafale over Mig-35, but we will likely prefer S-550 over AEGIS. And if it's good enough, we will pick Indian over import. We are choosing whatever works best for us at that moment, be it Russian, Western or Indian.

SoKo prefers to work with Russia when it comes to missiles because the Russians are really good at it. So SoKo's new SAMs and BMs are based on Russian designs. They also have a JV with Russia on Brahmos. So importers have to mix and match when they have the opportunity. Not one country makes the best of everything.
So full of excuses. Russia has been using cruise missiles and aero-ballistic missiles, so it's not like they're not trying to use their best stuff. The fact is, if they could actually fly planes over targets, or use helicopters to bomb and rocket them with cheaper weapons they would, just as they did Syria and Afghanistan. The fact is that they can't.

JFC, if Russia isn't using there best stuff they should start, they've lost >13,000 personnel in 23 days, their entire army will be dead in a few years. Javelin does not care what tank Russia sends its way, they can send some T-14s if they like.

The fact you say you will likely prefer S550 over Aegis shows a non-neutral bias. S550 has not even been tested to date, whereas Aegis is probably the most tested anti-air system there is and the SM-6 Blk1B promises to be way better.

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Kharkiv and Mariupol are being completely leveled... Odessa's turn will come too as soon as Putin's forces can focus on it.

Yep. The Russians are working in phases. Targeting is still a lot more selective though, not like what they would actually be doing. Do we know to what extent the civilians have left?

Most likely. Because you have to ask yourself the opposite question. What do you think would have happened if he had chosen to submit instead of fighting?

I'll give you a hint. President Yanukovych was moving forward with an association agreement with the EU, received some explicit threats from Putin, and chose to submit -- reversing course to break all attempts at associating with the EU and instead going for the Eurasian Economic Union. The outcome was EuroMaidan.

It was always up for negotiations. Compared to what Russia wanted before the war, nothing much has changed except allowing Zelensky to continue, which was probably always gonna happen.

The overwhelming majority of the Ukrainian population wants to remain independent. They see Russia as an enemy. Why do you think cities like Kharkiv, Mariupol or Mykolaiv are fighting instead of surrendering? They could easily surrender. They don't need Zelensky's approval for that. They don't. They don't because the Ukrainian people want to fight. They want to repel the invader and save their country.

How do we know the citizens are making that choice rather than the general in charge of defence?

Except Donbas and some smaller areas, many of these places under siege have native Ukrainians in the majority, even though there are sizable native Russians around. The opinions of both groups should easily diverge. And the opinion of the weaker group can easily be dismissed when rifles get involved.

When faced with a popular desire to fight, the government has only one alternative: either they fight alongside their people against the invader, or they fight their own people alongside the invader. Which choice would you make?

Let's just safely admit that most civilians will be hiding in tunnels and basements rather than be fighting at all. A more responsible govt would have allowed rapid evacuation of the main eastern cities towards western Ukraine.

And to be honest, the speeches that you find cringe, about how NATO has abandoned them? That's what he needs to say in order to get the legitimacy to remove the constitutional provision about Ukraine aiming to join NATO. It's actually one thing that's a concession to Russia; in that he is willing to acquiesce to Ukraine's neutrality in exchange for the end of the hostilities.

If that's the objective, then fine. But I think he's more interested in actually getting NATO into Ukraine instead, 'cause he wants to keep fighting for as long as possible, for as much political brownie points as possible.

I think that's the easiest objective to achieve because it's pretty much the first demand of Russia, he can easily convince his people about it. Right now what he needs is the legitimacy to even end the war by surrender. What do you think will happen to him this early into the war, when morale is still high? He has to wait for things to get real dicey visibly if he wants to surrender, one of them being Russians killing civilians in large numbers or the Ukrainian Army has been routed. He wants a "I had no choice" surrender if he wants to be politically relevant for years to come. "Surrender monkeys" carry this label for life, even those who are not responsible end up having to do it.
 
So full of excuses. Russia has been using cruise missiles and aero-ballistic missiles, so it's not like they're not trying to use their best stuff. The fact is, if they could actually fly planes over targets, or use helicopters to bomb and rocket them with cheaper weapons they would, just as they did Syria and Afghanistan. The fact is that they can't.

JFC, if Russia isn't using there best stuff they should start, they've lost >13,000 personnel in 23 days, their entire army will be dead in a few years. Javelin does not care what tank Russia sends its way, they can send some T-14s if they like.

The idea behind modern warfare is to constrain the movements of infantry as much as possible. You can't do that without helicopters and artillery. The idea is the Javelin should never be able to come close enough to the tank to engage.

The fact you say you will likely prefer S550 over Aegis shows a non-neutral bias. S550 has not even been tested to date, whereas Aegis is probably the most tested anti-air system there is and the SM-6 Blk1B promises to be way better.

It's like you are saying I should support the proven F-15EX over a next gen Su-57M. How does that make sense?

Who's the one with the non-neutral bias here?
 
The idea behind modern warfare is to constrain the movements of infantry as much as possible. You can't do that without helicopters and artillery. The idea is the Javelin should never be able to come close enough to the tank to engage.



It's like you are saying I should support the proven F-15EX over a next gen Su-57M. How does that make sense?

Who's the one with the non-neutral bias here?
Hypotheticals not based on reality. The entire raison d'etre (@Picdelamirand-oil ;)) of the tank is to over-power infantry. If it can't do that, it's not really a tank. Helicopters are for taking out tanks. SEAD and air superiority is required before you can do either effectively, without that you have no CAS and no recon. And therein lies the problem.

There's an M variant already LOL? They were even flying the current Su-57, at low altitude. You don't fly stealth aircraft at low altitude because there's no need, ergo....

Clearly you. Just imagine the problems Putin would be having if Ukraine was covered in jungle.
 
I doubt whether any agreement made in the present situation would be binding under international law anyway. Contracts signed under duress have no validity in law.

Contrary to what? Allow Russia to invade Ukraine again, so you can standaside and then award the next idiot in charge of Ukraine a Nobel Peace Prize?
 
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How convenient for Zelensky to have positioned his worst troops in a deadend.
The government of Ukraine is a free, liberal democracy with genuine changes in power, the only reason the Azov battalion received support was because there's been a state of war since Russia invaded in 2014. And the origins of the battalion trace back to WWII, where Ukrainians were so sick of Stalin that they were willing to side with anyone to fight against him. It's a case of any port in a storm. Stalin caused them, Putin prolonged them.