Ukraine - Russia Conflict

Autocratic countries can absorb more losses, the West cannot. Plus the main war is being fought on the diplomatic table. The Russians have shifted to concentrate on one city at a time. So after Mariupol, we may see Russian forces concentrating on Kharkiv or Odessa. After both fall, they may move on to Dnipro or take out the Ukrainian military in the Donbas. Then they could take Sumy and Chernihiv. Every time they do this, the more pressure Zelensky is under to surrender, because there's a good chance the Russians won't return territories won by blood.

Even if autocratic forces can absorb losses higher than liberal ones, if the rates being reported are even close to the lower ends commonly reported there is no way the Russians can sustain these losses. Mariupol is probably the most "Russian" city in Ukraine and is resisting to this extent, I can only imagine how other cities will fare. As for diplomacy, the never surrender at any cost attitude of Zelensky seems to be faring better than the Russian advance.

I don't think the Russians possess either the number of precision munitions or intelligence on Ukrainian positions to conventionally defeat the Ukrainian military. At this point they either slowly suffer losses to attrition and simply fold with whatever they've managed to take or resort to unconventional munitions or indiscriminate attacks on cities to try and demoralize the populace. Both will just make controlling the conquered lands even more unrealistic than it currently is, if such tactics even work.

I have no idea if Putin was so mislead on the capabilities/readiness of his military or if the Russians just lost all tactical fortitude over the last decade or so.
 
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Even if autocratic forces can absorb losses higher than liberal ones, if the rates being reported are even close to the lower ends commonly reported there is no way the Russians can sustain these losses. Mariupol is probably the most "Russian" city in Ukraine and is resisting to this extent, I can only imagine how other cities will fare. As for diplomacy, the never surrender at any cost attitude of Zelensky seems to be faring better than the Russian advance.

I don't think the Russians possess either the number of precision munitions or intelligence on Ukrainian positions to conventionally defeat the Ukrainian military. At this point they either slowly suffer losses to attrition and simply fold with whatever they've managed to take or resort to unconventional munitions or indiscriminate attacks on cities to try and demoralize the populace. Both will just make controlling the conquered lands even more unrealistic than it currently is, if such tactics even work.

I have no idea if Putin was so mislead on the capabilities/readiness of his military or if the Russians just lost all tactical fortitude over the last decade or so.
Yup. It's almost a month so stock taking becomes necessary. I think it's safe to pronounce that the war hasn't gone the way Russia thought it would . Their shortcomings have been exposed & the Ukranians have proven to be much more resilient than anybody including the Russians expected.

Where do we go from here ? Well in the next 45-60 days give or take a fortnight if Russia doesn't achieve it's aims ( whatever they are ) or most of it , it's in deep trouble particularly Putin ( not that Russia isn't in trouble otherwise. In the long run - read post Putin , I don't foresee Russia being of much strategic significance in the world. This war may well serve as a catalyst to unleash those forces which eventually ends up consuming Russia. )

So ,what can we expect in Ukraine ? I'm afraid that means more bloodshed or bloodbath on both sides with greater atrocities and a significantly bigger body count for Ukraine.
 
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Even if autocratic forces can absorb losses higher than liberal ones, if the rates being reported are even close to the lower ends commonly reported there is no way the Russians can sustain these losses.

It goes both ways. Neither side can sustain high losses and the Russians can replenish faster, if they want to. Furthermore, Ukraine's economy's been disrupted. These are still rookie numbers for a near-peer war.

Mariupol is probably the most "Russian" city in Ukraine and is resisting to this extent, I can only imagine how other cities will fare.

The Russians are fighting arguably the most dangerous Ukrainian fighters, the Azovs. They numbered 2500 strong altogether before the war. Although it's a "Russian" city, the density of Russia-haters from outside is pretty high, while holding "Russian" civilians hostage. Most of the Russian offensive has been halted everywhere else in preparation to take Mariupol.

As for diplomacy, the never surrender at any cost attitude of Zelensky seems to be faring better than the Russian advance.

That's how it is early in a conflict. It's all he can do. Even Niazi was boasting about his invincibility until he had to surrender unconditionally.

I don't think the Russians possess either the number of precision munitions or intelligence on Ukrainian positions to conventionally defeat the Ukrainian military. At this point they either slowly suffer losses to attrition and simply fold with whatever they've managed to take or resort to unconventional munitions or indiscriminate attacks on cities to try and demoralize the populace. Both will just make controlling the conquered lands even more unrealistic than it currently is, if such tactics even work.

I'm sure they do. We use a lot of the same stuff they do, and there's a lot of precision stuff around. They are trying to keep civilian casualties at a minimum.

I have no idea if Putin was so mislead on the capabilities/readiness of his military or if the Russians just lost all tactical fortitude over the last decade or so.

It may be a mixture of many factors, even technological. Even sending troops into enemy territory requires adequate mental conditioning of said troops, which they likely failed at.

But I think one of the most important factors was their restraint. The US did not have any sort of moral restraint when they took Iraq and Afghanistan. Russia entered the war thinking Ukraine will surrender quickly, so it seems they never prepared for a mid term war or the fact that they will have to be prepared to kill civilians.
 
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It goes both ways. Neither side can sustain high losses and the Russians can replenish faster, if they want to. Furthermore, Ukraine's economy's been disrupted. These are still rookie numbers for a near-peer war.
I think "faster" is relative. If the Russian defense industry is able to retool and start pumping out munitions quickly then yes.. they will be able to restock faster than a devastated Ukraine... after many many months/years. They will never be able to keep up with the output of the collective West supplying Ukraine with various munitions/manpads/atgms/etc. Before this conflict I would never have called Ukraine a "near-peer" to Russia. After the display by Russia, yea perhaps they are closer to that.

Also Ukraine's "economy" was barely existent before the war, it has been severely disrupted since 2014.
The Russians are fighting arguably the most dangerous Ukrainian fighters, the Azovs. They numbered 2500 strong altogether before the war. Although it's a "Russian" city, the density of Russia-haters from outside is pretty high, while holding "Russian" civilians hostage. Most of the Russian offensive has been halted everywhere else in preparation to take Mariupol.
Halting an invasion of an entire nation to take 1 completely surrounded city that was basically on the frontlines before the conflict erupted is telling though right? If you want you can compare this to the battles of Fallujah in 2004 - well armed, organized and fanatic infantry occupying a city. Operations in Iraq did not stop simply to fight these battles, even after getting bloodied noses in the initial stages.

That's how it is early in a conflict. It's all he can do. Even Niazi was boasting about his invincibility until he had to surrender unconditionally.
It's not a great comparison. Niazi was completely isolated and running short of supplies. East Pakistan could not possibly sustain governing an actively hostile population while engaging a superior military force encroaching from all sides. Zelensky enjoys popular support from his populace as well as massive economic/military/food and especially C4ISR aid from the West. I think Zelensky speaks from a better position.

I'm sure they do. We use a lot of the same stuff they do, and there's a lot of precision stuff around. They are trying to keep civilian casualties at a minimum.
India might use a lot of the same stuff as Russia and Russian stuff might even be world class, but what good is it if they don't use it? I am taking the assumption that they lack the quantities necessary because I can't think of another reasonable explanation. After a month of siege the Ukrainians are still conducting sorties, still using heavy equipment and are overall still conducting a conventional war. With the on paper advantage this just should not be the case. The low usage of precision guided munitions by the Russians is truly perplexing.

If they are trying to take civilian causalities into account, you would expect greater usage right? It would also give the advantage of keeping Russian jets higher in the air and out of range of simple/old AA systems employed by the Ukrainians.. or reduce the amount of artillery needed to barrage an area and therefore reduce collateral damage and more effectively destroy conventional opposition.

It may be a mixture of many factors, even technological. Even sending troops into enemy territory requires adequate mental conditioning of said troops, which they likely failed at.

But I think one of the most important factors was their restraint. The US did not have any sort of moral restraint when they took Iraq and Afghanistan. Russia entered the war thinking Ukraine will surrender quickly, so it seems they never prepared for a mid term war or the fact that they will have to be prepared to kill civilians.
I am inclined to believe the Russians didn't prepare for a longer, drawn out conflict and that the average Russian private doesn't want to fight/kill Ukrainians .... but the continued inability to refocus and resupply to wage this type of war weeks after the ground reality has become abundantly clear and the Russians have suffered nearly 10k fatalities and untold numbers of other causalities ... it's understandable why it's easy to draw the conclusion that the Russians just aren't what people chalked them up to be.
 
I think "faster" is relative. If the Russian defense industry is able to retool and start pumping out munitions quickly then yes.. they will be able to restock faster than a devastated Ukraine... after many many months/years. They will never be able to keep up with the output of the collective West supplying Ukraine with various munitions/manpads/atgms/etc. Before this conflict I would never have called Ukraine a "near-peer" to Russia. After the display by Russia, yea perhaps they are closer to that.

I was actually referring to manpower. In terms of equipment, Russia has a ridiculous amount of Soviet stores. And their production capacity is also ridiculous.

Since this is mainly an army war with old equipment on both sides, I'd rather say Ukraine has some advantages here, it's a near-peer conflict. Taiwan is also a near-peer adversary to China, it is all about local advantages within a given area that a near-peer adversary is capable of bringing to bear against a more powerful adversary. Like Pakistan is near-peer to India, and India is near-peer to China. Basically an adversary capable of fighting back.

Also Ukraine's "economy" was barely existent before the war, it has been severely disrupted since 2014.

Yeah. So the more time the conflict takes, the less options Zelensky has.

Halting an invasion of an entire nation to take 1 completely surrounded city that was basically on the frontlines before the conflict erupted is telling though right? If you want you can compare this to the battles of Fallujah in 2004 - well armed, organized and fanatic infantry occupying a city. Operations in Iraq did not stop simply to fight these battles, even after getting bloodied noses in the initial stages.

The numeral advantage the US and allies had against a very significantly weaked enemy that even decided to actually not fight back is a completely different situation. The Russians do not have a numerical advantage in Ukraine, so they are going about it differently.

It's not a great comparison. Niazi was completely isolated and running short of supplies. East Pakistan could not possibly sustain governing an actively hostile population while engaging a superior military force encroaching from all sides. Zelensky enjoys popular support from his populace as well as massive economic/military/food and especially C4ISR aid from the West. I think Zelensky speaks from a better position.

Agreed. Not the same. But just pointing out that what they say and the ground realities may not be the same. If city after city starts falling, and Ukraine's Donbas troops get surrounded, the Russians will have the advantage.

India might use a lot of the same stuff as Russia and Russian stuff might even be world class, but what good is it if they don't use it? I am taking the assumption that they lack the quantities necessary because I can't think of another reasonable explanation. After a month of siege the Ukrainians are still conducting sorties, still using heavy equipment and are overall still conducting a conventional war. With the on paper advantage this just should not be the case. The low usage of precision guided munitions by the Russians is truly perplexing.

They don't want to turn Ukraine into their Pakistan. Massive fires will kill civilians in large numbers, especially if the enemy has decided to hide themselves amongst civilians, particularly in Russian friendly cities like Mariupol. The Russians are working through all of it in phases, aiming for a diplomatic solution to end the war. I suppose they think by taking Mariupol, they will at least take care of their de-Nazification goal to a certain extent, and could force Zelensky to surrender far more quickly.

If they are trying to take civilian causalities into account, you would expect greater usage right? It would also give the advantage of keeping Russian jets higher in the air and out of range of simple/old AA systems employed by the Ukrainians.. or reduce the amount of artillery needed to barrage an area and therefore reduce collateral damage and more effectively destroy conventional opposition.

Precision or not, if you park a gun next to a kindergarten school, the school's gonna be taken out too. Ukraine's committing war crime after war crime.

I am inclined to believe the Russians didn't prepare for a longer, drawn out conflict and that the average Russian private doesn't want to fight/kill Ukrainians .... but the continued inability to refocus and resupply to wage this type of war weeks after the ground reality has become abundantly clear and the Russians have suffered nearly 10k fatalities and untold numbers of other causalities ... it's understandable why it's easy to draw the conclusion that the Russians just aren't what people chalked them up to be.

I don't believe the Russians will back down though. The only real options are either Zelensky surrenders or the Russians retreat. I don't think the Russians are in a position to allow a Ukrainian victory. I mean, whatever's happening with Pakistan will happen to Russia. A second more brutal war will have to be fought in the future, and you can bet Ukraine will somehow get their hands on nukes, because they have the ability to. Ukraine was always gonna go down. This is the West's gambit towards divide and rule. Too bad the Ukrainians got suckered into it. Zelensky the genius thought he was one of them.
 
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It's good you aren't a Jerry , Paddy or it'd back to stone ages for you . No baths during winter , hunt for firewood & light up a fire in the fireplace & if there isn't one at home , build it but more importantly plenty of toilet paper to be stocked . These are just some of the perks I can think of . I'm sure you can come up with plenty of others . @BMD
 
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It's not gonna happen, which is why Russia's gotta finish this war on their own terms.
That will never happen and Russia will be sanctioned until long after it finished if Putin, or his cronies, are still in power.
 
Autocratic countries can absorb more losses, the West cannot. Plus the main war is being fought on the diplomatic table. The Russians have shifted to concentrate on one city at a time. So after Mariupol, we may see Russian forces concentrating on Kharkiv or Odessa. After both fall, they may move on to Dnipro or take out the Ukrainian military in the Donbas. Then they could take Sumy and Chernihiv. [/quote]
Until they can't. The Russians have no choice but to concentrate on one city at a time, their communications structure is too poor to do anything else.

Every time they do this, the more pressure Zelensky is under to surrender, because there's a good chance the Russians won't return territories won by blood.
Then the Russians will bleed to death.


Then we would have seen a lot more photos than just a handful.
Not all destroyed tanks lie in places where people can easily photograph them and they were only up against muppets. You won't find as many pictures of destroyed Challenger IIs.
 
Also no aps still can't stop a top attack munition. No one in the market. The Russians managed to make a one that can stop apfsds. But I doubt how effective they will be same for the Israelis. Right now any third gen atgm means the tank goes boom. It's sad really. Armoured warfare is really cool. But like guns made medivial armour obsolete same has happened with third gen atgm's they have heavy armour obsolete
I believe the updated Trophy system can.

An RPG-28 injured the foot of a Challenger II driver due to ablation not penetration but they added a new modular armour block in that area since.

RPG-28 > RPG-29
Wow. They are about to incircle Russian forces. We'll likely see a lot of Russian forces surrendering like Iraqi soldiers did in Desert Storm.
I don't think they actually want to fight because they don't believe in what they're fighting for.
 
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