Ukraine - Russia Conflict

When did saddam, asad do that? Any sources?

Some 182,000 Kurds were killed in the Anfal genocidal campaigns of the regime of Saddam Hussein during the 1980s. Most victims were taken to killing fields in southern Iraq and executed by the truckload.


Some 5,000 people – mainly women and children – died on the day, and up to 12,000 have lost their lives since.

And At that time West turned blind eye, Infact west was supplying weapon to iraq.
And Russia was supplying weapons to Iran and Syria to attack Israel. But the US never told Saddam to do what he did, and that justified his removal on its own, even without his invasion of Kuwait and multiple other offences. In total Saddam was responsible for the deaths and disappearance of up to 2 million Iraqis during his rule.
 
We all know dictators are bad. That doesn't mean you blow up their country without a proper plan in place for the aftermath. But the West leaves these countries for the dead after they are done.
Outside actors were a large part in making sure any plan failed. I'm talking about Iran and Russia. Ditto that for Libya. If Russia and Iran can't keep allied dictators in play they make sure they intervene either by proxies or PMC and turn the country into a hell hole so that they can blame it on the west.
Turkey is no different from any of the kangaroos you personally have a dislike for.
Disagree. Imperfect yes, but if I had to choose a country in that region to live in, it would be Turkey by a long way.
'Cause a massive mobilisation of Russian forces into Belarus has been happening since the end of Sept.

Belarus claims 9000 troops, but it could be 5-10 times that.

But the Russians may possibly be using Belarus and their facilities for training their own troops over the winter though.
Why? Don't they have training facilities in Russia. Likely there's going to be an intervention if Russia and Belarus launch a large scale assault on Kyiv.
 

Great day for the recently mobilised yesterday.

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We all know dictators are bad. That doesn't mean you blow up their country without a proper plan in place for the aftermath. But the West leaves these countries for the dead after they are done.
If the dictator is their subordinate that make him a democratic dictator like Gen Musharraf in Pakistan who attacked a democratic country India and US befriended him. He remained a dictator and as well as a strategic ally of US. If dictator is pro Russian he is not a democratic dictator.

This is a power play between two countries, Russia and US , if we go for terminology and argue what is right and wrong then its an unending debate, what matters here is might which is always right.
 
Obvious bullshit. They declared they had no intention to occupy territory three years after Zelensky's elections, so don't go claiming that it's Zelensky's election that changed the rule. The only rule is that Russia always lies, and that rule hasn't changed.
They wasted no time painting the Russian colors everywhere, as early as in February. So the intent always was to invade, occupy, and annex.
And there was no avoiding war. Putin wanted that war and would not be budged.

My point being the Russians had no intention of invading Ukraine until Zelensky pushed their buttons. Even before the war began, all of the Russian efforts were aimed at not fighting. Even after the war began, they expected they wouldn't fight. In fact, had their assessments been accurate and had they predicted the current outcome, there wouldn't have been a war in the first place. So they screwed up too. But the first one to screw up was Zelensky.

So slow? They started by going as fast as they could, which is why they had supply line issues.

Slow as in not using the appropriate amount of power right off the bat, like the US against Iraq. 'Cause they didn't expect to fight. Supply line issues, they thought their army was only gonna be for parades, not war.

Let's always maintain the fact that the Russians never expected to fight a war.

No, they absolutely are considering every Ukrainian as Nazi. Read this:
It's from RIA Novosti, so you know it's content that is officially endorsed by the Kremlin. A few translated excerpts:

See? Their definition of "Nazi" is "Ukrainian". Every Ukrainian is a Nazi. And the only cure is complete destruction of Ukraine, massive brainwashing into being obedient little slaves, and complete dependence on Russia for every aspect of society with no space left for any sort of local autonomy. Independence, autonomy, and even neutrality are considered to be Nazism. The only way not to be a Nazi in Russia's eyes is to be a Russian.

This article conflates the age-old Soviet-style indoctrination with denazification. Their 'original' definition was just purging the fighters. Killing UAF and other soldiers was considered demilitarisation. We are arguing semantics, but I agree that commie indoctrination will be the main societal goal post war. They seem to be calling it denazification, but it's more accurately de-democratisation.

Zelensky is only a puppet of the Ukrainian people. He's not a puppet of the West, and anyone who claims so is full of shit.

Then he would have overturned the language law, as promised. Then he wouldn't have complained about how the EU and US didn't come to rescue Ukraine after the invasion.

The problem is you are seeing this situation as if there's any merit at all in the Russian position. It's Russian imperialism vs. Ukrainian sovereignty.

US imperialism vs Iraqi sovereignty
French imperialism vs Libyan sovereignty

Dress it up how you like, I don't see a difference. To me it's all senseless murder for political benefits. You guys left your enemies for the dead. If you do not follow destruction with nation-building, then it's just genocide, pure and simple.

Hence the accusation of hypocrisy. The West simply isn't capable of leading by example, it only looks out for itself. It was because of Chinese actions via BRI that the Third World is now getting modern infrastructure. And the US and Europe want to contribute now after all these decades, have yet to do so, all because of the political benefits of doing it. Garden and jungle and whatnot, without talking about the centuries of exploitation needed to build that garden in the first place.

But I understand that India likes colonial imperialism, as long as it happens to other people.

In this context, it's different. The land Russia plans to occupy is Russian. Politically, we are somewhat in the same situation post partition, but we are less emotional about it.

Look, it's simple. Had it not been for the language law, I would have sympathised more with the Ukrainians. This is something you haven't understood. And you won't understand until someone else comes to France, sidelines the French language and imposes their language on you. This is a conversation we are having in India right now. The central govt wants to impose Hindi everywhere in the country. They are doing it for both selfish reasons, like spreading their votebank around, and altruistic reasons, like national unity, but it's not gonna work if it's done forcefully. And it's much worse for the Russian-speakers because they are being legally ousted from the system forcefully. So, if you as an individual, are willing to give up on the French language, to the point where you will not teach your children French, for their benefit, for the 'bigger picture', like EU unity around a majority language, maybe Spanish, only then can you argue that the Russians are not justified.

What people forget to realise is the occupied territories are largely peaceful, because the occupied residents don't mind Russian presence. Normally, after so much time has passed, the Russians should have been dealing with a major insurgency by now. It's not happened, it's unlikely to happen, because the residents have picked their side already. From the Russian perspective, they are liberating their own people. And the people being liberated pretty much agree with that.
 
Why? Don't they have training facilities in Russia. Likely there's going to be an intervention if Russia and Belarus launch a large scale assault on Kyiv.

Will obviously be overstretched right now. It makes sense to use foreign facilities.

Plus the images released of these 'soldiers' indicate they need fitness training. Most of them look like regular joe couch potatoes.
 
My point being the Russians had no intention of invading Ukraine until Zelensky pushed their buttons. Even before the war began, all of the Russian efforts were aimed at not fighting. Even after the war began, they expected they wouldn't fight. In fact, had their assessments been accurate and had they predicted the current outcome, there wouldn't have been a war in the first place. So they screwed up too. But the first one to screw up was Zelensky.
They had every intention of invading. They just lied. They said they wouldn't attack Ukraine, and then invaded Ukraine. They said it was just a special military operation with no intent to occupy, but as they took control of cities they repainted them in white-blue-red and burned the books written in Ukrainian language from the schools and libraries, renamed streets in honor of Lenin and Stalin, and appointed their own puppet governors. They're full of shit and nothing the Kremlin says can be trusted. Always assume they lie. If Putin says the sky is blue, rush to the nearest window and double-check.

Look, it's simple. Had it not been for the language law, I would have sympathised more with the Ukrainians. This is something you haven't understood.
No, it's you who hasn't understood. You still don't get what this language law business is. Just a massively overblown pretext.
1. Ukrainian is the sole official language of Ukraine, this is part of its constitution, this is older than Euromaidan or the Orange Revolution.
2. The Russian language is not banned. For *censored*'s sake, Volodimir Zelensky is a native Russian speaker. And his TV series, "Servant of the People"? Guess which language it's in? It's in Russian! It's not in Ukrainian!

All the hubbub has been about a law allowing regions to have their own official languages, that was deemed unconstitutional and repealed. This repeal is what Russia called a genocide and why they invaded. It was never anything more than a pretext. If it hadn't been that, it would have been something else.

Please read this:
It's quite an important read because this is all from the viewpoint of an insider. Putin has become obsessed that he is the leader of the "anti-west" world, going on a crusade to put an end to the current world order and instead establish Russia has the new hegemon. This is the imperial delusion that is at the core of Russian policy for the last 15 years at least.

What people forget to realise is the occupied territories are largely peaceful, because the occupied residents don't mind Russian presence.
Normally, after so much time has passed, the Russians should have been dealing with a major insurgency by now.
A major insurgency is what happened in the early days when grandmas threw Molotov cocktails at tanks. Now it's a lot less possible in the occupied territories because they are occupied by armed military men who have unlimited rights to detain, torture, and murder. Insurgency is possible against police, not against armies. So instead there's partisan activity.
It's not happened, it's unlikely to happen, because the residents have picked their side already.
They have, and they side with Ukraine. You're just willfully blind to that.
From the Russian perspective, they are liberating their own people.
No, from the Russian perspective, they are disciplining unruly slaves that tried to emancipate. The "khokhols" are not "their own people", they're just people that belong under their boots.
And the people being liberated pretty much agree with that.
Absolutely *censored*ing not.

You have intoxicated yourself with Russian propaganda and lies. Open your eyes and realize that nothing Russia says can be trusted. The Ukrainians in the occupied territories hate the Russians invaders that have come to loot and torture. But they get murdered when they say so openly.
 
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In this context, it's different. The land Russia plans to occupy is Russian. Politically, we are somewhat in the same situation post partition, but we are less emotional about it.
I couldn't disagree more. Language or NO Language russia has no right to invade.
Yes, Militias party Like right sektor, svoboda , azov batalian were terrorizing some russian speaking people( also torturing and killing them), But
Russia should have Raised this issue in UN, and should have Involved it, But russia took International law in their hand.
But I understand that India likes colonial imperialism, as long as it happens to other people.
I genuinely want to know, how do you come to this conclusion?
 
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I couldn't disagree anymore. Language or NO Language russia has nor right to invade.
Yes, Militias party Like right sektor, svoboda , azov batalian were terrorizing some russian speaking people( also torturing and killing them), But
Russia should have Raised this issue in UN, and should have Involved it, But russia took International law in their hand.

I genuinely want to know, how do you come to this conclusion?
What would be your take if India attacks Pakistan and takes back POK? West would still support Pakistan like they have always done and are doing in Ukraine. A strong India, Russia and China is their biggest nightmare.


Russia is doing in Ukraine exactly what we should do to annex POK and we should fully support it.
 
What would be your take if India attacks Pakistan and takes back POK? West would still support Pakistan like they have always done and are doing in Ukraine. A strong India, Russia and China is their biggest nightmare.


Russia is doing in Ukraine exactly what we should do to annex POK and we should fully support it.
Not Even close.
What russia is doing is clearly Violating Inernational law, otoh Annexation of kashmir was done by the Books.( Accor. to International laws.)
Though UN at that didn't certified it, Since pakistan sent militias in kashmir and destablized it.
What Russia is doing is just Wrong on each and every level.
There is no Comparison.
 
They had every intention of invading. They just lied. They said they wouldn't attack Ukraine, and then invaded Ukraine. They said it was just a special military operation with no intent to occupy, but as they took control of cities they repainted them in white-blue-red and burned the books written in Ukrainian language from the schools and libraries, renamed streets in honor of Lenin and Stalin, and appointed their own puppet governors. They're full of shit and nothing the Kremlin says can be trusted. Always assume they lie. If Putin says the sky is blue, rush to the nearest window and double-check.

The intent to occupy was always there since Putin talked about Novorossiya back in 2014. There was no doubt that if Russia crossed the border, it was to occupy whatever they could get. And there was no doubt that they went in completely unprepared.

No, it's you who hasn't understood. You still don't get what this language law business is. Just a massively overblown pretext.
1. Ukrainian is the sole official language of Ukraine, this is part of its constitution, this is older than Euromaidan or the Orange Revolution.
2. The Russian language is not banned. For *censored*'s sake, Volodimir Zelensky is a native Russian speaker. And his TV series, "Servant of the People"? Guess which language it's in? It's in Russian! It's not in Ukrainian!

All the hubbub has been about a law allowing regions to have their own official languages, that was deemed unconstitutional and repealed. This repeal is what Russia called a genocide and why they invaded. It was never anything more than a pretext. If it hadn't been that, it would have been something else.

Entertainment in a different language is not the same as holding office in a different language.

Good luck explaining this:
The provision, which entered into force on January 16, is stipulated in article 25 of the law. It requires print media outlets registered in Ukraine to publish in Ukrainian. Publications in other languages must also be accompanied by a Ukrainian version, equivalent in content, volume, and method of printing. Additionally, places of distribution such as newsstands must have at least half their content in Ukrainian.

Article 25, regarding print media outlets, makes exceptions for certain minority languages, English, and official EU languages, but not for Russian. Ukrainian authorities justify this by referring to the country’s European ambitions and “the century of oppression of … Ukrainian in favor of Russian.”


Such tactics make it impossible for most publishers to publish their articles due to the added cost of translations. Newstands required to hold 50% of their merchandise in Ukrainian will push them out of business.

What's only fair? Nothing concerning a language must be touched as long as it follows the law of the land on an equitable basis. As I said before, Ukraine ceased being a democracy in 2014. There's literally nothing you can say that can justify Ukraine's actions.

Guess what? Even Poroshenko came to power after sucking up to Russian-Ukrainians about the language laws, no different from Zelensky.

PS: The new law also says Russians can only learn in Russian up to primary school. And 90% of all audio/video entertainment must be in Ukrainian.

Massively overblown, eh?

Please read this:
It's quite an important read because this is all from the viewpoint of an insider. Putin has become obsessed that he is the leader of the "anti-west" world, going on a crusade to put an end to the current world order and instead establish Russia has the new hegemon. This is the imperial delusion that is at the core of Russian policy for the last 15 years at least.

His opinion would have helped if backed by embassy/consulate cables, a la Snowden style.

His personal opinion when seeking asylum counts for jacksh!t without actual proof. He will obviously say anything that's pleasing to Western ears.


Nothing special about this. It's part and parcel of any war. It's among the reasons why people don't like war. The idea is to spread fear amongst the populace so they don't get ideas.


France will do the same, India will do the same... And of course, the US has done it.

A major insurgency is what happened in the early days when grandmas threw Molotov cocktails at tanks. Now it's a lot less possible in the occupied territories because they are occupied by armed military men who have unlimited rights to detain, torture, and murder. Insurgency is possible against police, not against armies. So instead there's partisan activity.

Same rules anywhere for any insurgency. Abu Gharib.

Only India treats terrorists democratically. No one else does that.

Those Molotov idiots were misguided to create civilian deaths, so that can then be shown to the world. What do you expect a soldier to do if a grandma wants to kill him?

They have, and they side with Ukraine. You're just willfully blind to that.

That's not an insurgency.

No, from the Russian perspective, they are disciplining unruly slaves that tried to emancipate. The "khokhols" are not "their own people", they're just people that belong under their boots.

Absolutely *censored*ing not.

You have intoxicated yourself with Russian propaganda and lies. Open your eyes and realize that nothing Russia says can be trusted. The Ukrainians in the occupied territories hate the Russians invaders that have come to loot and torture. But they get murdered when they say so openly.

You are just talking about anecdotal stuff. One-off stuff from here or there. There are anti-French citizens in France as well. It's the majority that counts.
 
West would still support Pakistan like they have always done and are doing in Ukraine.


Though UN at that didn't certified it, Since pakistan sent militias in kashmir and destablized it.

UN and West has no role in Kashmir, it's Pakistan which is through its diplomacy trying to involve the UN and West into this because Pakistan knows alone they can't handle India.

Pakistan wants a Baghdad pact(METO) type alliance to counter India.
 
What would be your take if India attacks Pakistan and takes back POK? West would still support Pakistan like they have always done and are doing in Ukraine. A strong India, Russia and China is their biggest nightmare.


Russia is doing in Ukraine exactly what we should do to annex POK and we should fully support it.

No. Russia has no right over Ukraine. But the Ukrainians themselves have alienated their own people.

The situation can't be compared to PoK because PoK legally belongs to India, signed over via the Instrument of Accenssion, agreed to by all parties concerned.

What makes the Russian situation special is the Ukrainians themselves reduced their Russian citizens into second-class citizens in their own country. Unlike what's been propagated in Western fairy tales, the language law is very serious. This is like Sri Lanka in the 60s, when they disenfranchised the Tamils, which led to an insurgency. Had India been a powerful nation, we would have invaded Sri Lanka to liberate the Tamils, and it would have been morally justified.

The Ukrainians sank their own ship.
 
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No clue what he does. Some times, people with special skills, like medicine or engineering, but old, are also called in. They won't necessarily be on the frontlines of course, but their skills will be necessary in rear areas, even inside Russian territory itself. He could even be a priest.
From his puffed out cheeks I think it's obvious what he does best.
I couldn't disagree more. Language or NO Language russia has no right to invade.
Yes, Militias party Like right sektor, svoboda , azov batalian were terrorizing some russian speaking people( also torturing and killing them), But
Russia should have Raised this issue in UN, and should have Involved it, But russia took International law in their hand.
Russian involvement inside Ukraine since 2014 has made it difficult to understand exactly what has gone on. The only clear fact is that they should never have been there.
 
UN and West has no role in Kashmir, it's Pakistan which is through its diplomacy trying to involve the UN and West into this because Pakistan knows alone they can't handle India.

Pakistan wants a Baghdad pact(METO) type alliance to counter India.
The west is honestly sick of hearing about Kashmir and Palestine for that matter. Both areas where terrorists operate and there are alleged rights abuses, it's difficult to tell who's in the right most of the time. It's almost as if terrorists and rights abuses follow each other around the globe. Strange that.