Ukraine - Russia Conflict

Right now, while Ukraine is fighting an existential war for survival against a bloodthirsty nemy that wants only to rape and pillage, the opposition to Zelensky is located in Russia. And of course also in India.

And the UK. Basically, all of Zelensky's opponents are not in Ukraine.

No, that's not enough to justify results so overwhelming. We're talking 2/3 of the population even in the most russified and Russophile areas. This requires a desire for self-governance that goes beyond a simple desire for change. Lots of scholarly books on the Ukrainian national identity and why it's separate from the Russian national identity despite the Empire and despite the USSR.
A blatant difference is how Ukrainian society is a lot more horizontal than Russia's, which is absurdly vertical. Lots of local initiatives. That's why the Ukrainian army managed to reform efficiently these past eight years, after two decades of neglect, while the Russian attempts at reform have failed.

It's very common if people are more loyal to a country or region than to a party or language. Like it's the case in India, where most people have no party loyalty than say America, where there are these bozos who are eiher Democrats or Republicans for life.

He yeeted away the first two bombs, it's only the third that got him. Also he apparently survived anyway, according to Russian sources he was later rescued and evacuated.

The fact that he survived doesn't mean a war crime wasn't committed.

I find you have a lot more concern and solicitude for a Russian invader that got away with non-critical wounds than for the thousands of civilians that the Russians have tortured and murdered; something which I remember you argued was no big deal, just war business as usual, not a war crime.

No, you guys are so rabidly anti-Russian that I have to take a stand against it. I am not pro-Russia, I am more anti-your opinion, a contrarian.

It is no big deal because you have done it too. It's become par for the course.

Oh yeah? Ukraine was gonna invade Russia? Get real.

No, but America can, using Ukr soil. It gets worse if those "anti-missile defences" that Ukr will eventually get also come with nuclear warheads. That will put nuclear weapons on Russia's doorstep. And we all know a SAM can also act as a BM.

If India can put nukes in SAMs, so can the US.

The only threat Ukraine represented to Russia was that of a different model. If the Russian society saw their neighboring Ukraine go from poor and corrupt to prosperous and much-less-corrupt after tying with the West and embracing Western values, it might give them ideas that don't align with the Silovikis' plans for the country.

We had argued this a long time ago. Even if there was no war, it would take 30+ years for Ukr to have the same lifestyle as the Russians.

Poland's per capita income PPP is $41K, Russia's is $31K and Ukraine's is/was $14K. Ukraine would have to grow 2 or 3 times faster than Russia to eventually catch up maybe 40-50 years down the line. By then Russia would have caught up with the West in living standards, thereby rendering your argument moot.

Ukraine never had a chance at joining the EU simply because the population would have migrated to the EU. You wanna bet? Mexico's PPP per capita is $21000, but if the US opens up its border, pretty much the entire country will empty into the US.

So the politics involving this war is far deeper than simply economics or the EU. It's a very carefully planned action against Russia spanning decades.
 
If I support the decision (to withdraw), then I am calling for a violation of the territorial integrity of Russia, and according to Article 280 paragraph 1 (...) it is several years in prison. But if I oppose the decision, then I disrespect the leadership of the armed forces, and according to the same article, but paragraph 3, it is also several years in prison.

I don't want to go to jail, so we'll watch the report, and then I'll let the experts speak

Which is why some rights are suspended even in democracies, when martial law is enacted.
 
Propganda....all i see is a typical Artillery duel, for some reason i am having a bad feeling about all this.... Russians maneuvers look like a feigned retreat to me.

If a retreat was 'planned', they wouldn't have bothered with a mobilisation.

The Russians have claimed a 2-month period for training of the mobilised troops. So we have to see what they do by the end of Nov and Dec.
 
I didn't know 1941 was 210 years ago. :rolleyes:
True, I forgot about that crazily enough, but that was still 81 years ago and Russia thoroughly deserved it for siding with the Nazis in the first place and invading other countries in Europe with them as partners. Point is, Russia has invaded plenty of European countries since then and none have invaded Russia since then. So the original point still stands. Europe has the security genuine concerns, not Russia.
 
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True, I forgot about that crazily enough, but that was still 81 years ago and Russia thoroughly deserved it for siding with the Nazis in the first place and invading other countries in Europe with them as partners. Point is, Russia has invaded plenty of European countries since then and none have invaded Russia since then. So the original point still stands. Europe has the security genuine concerns, not Russia.
They want to become bigger thugs than us......
we will never let that happen. 🤣
 
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What are the latest, most reliable estimates as to the number of Russian casualties so far?

The Russians mobilised 82000 troops into Ukraine after the first week of mobilisation. So that's likely more than a 1:1 replacement.

Gen Milley claimed 100,000 recently, which means it's most definitely less than that. So 82000 is a good measure, meaning it's not more than that in reality at least.
 
True, I forgot about that crazily enough, but that was still 81 years ago and Russia thoroughly deserved it for siding with the Nazis in the first place and invading other countries in Europe with them as partners. Point is, Russia has invaded plenty of European countries since then and none have invaded Russia since then. So the original point still stands. Europe has the security genuine concerns, not Russia.

Stalin never sided with the Nazis. He tried to, but as a feint.

Europe is still collectively stronger than Russia conventionally.
 
Stalin never sided with the Nazis. He tried to, but as a feint.

Europe is still collectively stronger than Russia conventionally.
Wasn't a feint.

The Changing Reading of the Hitler–Stalin Alliance​


BY CLAUDIA WEBER

On August 23, 1939 in Moscow, Hitler’s foreign minister Joachim von Ribbentrop and Stalin’s people’s commissar for foreign affairs Vyacheslav Molotov signed a nonaggression pact between Germany and the Soviet Union. Germany and the Soviet Union promised to maintain neutrality in the event of military conflicts with a third party and to refrain from attacking each other. The two regimes also secured their respective zones of influence in Eastern Europe and described those zones in a secret supplementary protocol, a document whose very existence the Soviet Union denied for decades. The treaty, known in Germany as the Hitler-Stalin Pact (though more commonly referred to as the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact), laid the foundation for the outbreak of World War II in Europe.

The Beginnings

On August 23, 1939, the German foreign minister’s plane landed in Moscow. Joachim von Ribbentrop had reluctantly interrupted his summer vacation in Salzburg for the signing of a treaty, which he thought was already a done deal. The talks between Britain, France, and the Soviet Union on a potential triple alliance had just failed. The big threat had just been avoided; everything else, in Ribbentrop’s view, paled in significance.

Yet Stalin did not think the matter resolved. He demanded that Ribbentrop go to Moscow so that, as Hitler informed his minister, “the essentials of the additional protocol desired by the Government of the USSR ... could be finalized as soon as possible.” After seven hours of intense negotiations, the parties drew up a secret supplementary protocol. In it, Germany and the Soviet Union agreed on the partition of Poland and Eastern Europe, including Finland. Four hours later, Ribbentrop and Molotov signed a nonaggression pact between Germany and the USSR. With this, the road to World War II in Europe was opened.

A few days later, on September 1, the German Wehrmacht entered Poland, and on September 17 the Red Army approached from the east. For the first twenty-two months of World War II, the Third Reich and the Soviet Union acted as allies and divided up the European continent between themselves. When, almost two years later, on June 22, 1941, the pact was violated, the territory that Hitler was adding to his realm had increased by 800,000 square kilometers, while Stalin had expanded his empire to the west and southeast by 422 square kilometers.


They were on the same side. Russia is 50% responsible for WW2. Without Stalin agreeing Der Fuhrer might have not made a move on Poland it was important for Der Fuhrer that Stalin agreed to this pact.

I'm pretty sure Indian history has a whole different account how this went. :rolleyes:
 
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Nice rifle he got there
1668202499224.png


If all Ukraine forces were armed with M4s Ukraine would have likely gained more of its territory quicker. A higher velocity and accurate round does that. :p
 
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Chalo agar Mae Hota, Mae bhi retreat karta , Dushman ko aur depth Mae lekar Ata jitna ho sake ,
Fir flank karta Belarus ke sidese direct Kyiv ke liya , city ko bhi flank karta , city ko nahi breach karta , lekin usko istamal karta as a bait , than rear (withdrawal) side se push karta phirse

Let's see if this happens in the future , right now looks slims though but than who can predict

I just posted to place this on record for Indians only, no interest in the conflict
 
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And the UK. Basically, all of Zelensky's opponents are not in Ukraine.
Yes, when a country is attacked, it rallies behind its leader. That's normal human psychology. Our group is threatened, we unite. When the threat is gone, then the internal squabbling can return. A good example of that was how Dubya Bush, which everyone held to be the stupidest POTUS ever and half the country thought had stolen the election through his brother's shenanigans in Florida, was triumphantly re-elected thanks to 9/11.

So your idea that Ukraine is not a democracy because everyone currently supports Zelinsky is not the slam dunk you think it is. When Russia stops killing Ukrainian civilians for fun, then we'll take another look. In the meantime, Russia is a police state dictatorship where contradicting the regime's talking points is deemed a worse criminal offense than murder (15 years of jail vs. 10...). Stop trying to equivocate.
The fact that he survived doesn't mean a war crime wasn't committed.
Your idea that a war crime was committed rests entirely on the assumption that attempting to kill an enemy soldier on the field of battle, while he is active and not surrendering, is a war crime. Since this is completely wrong, you are completely wrong.
No, you guys are so rabidly anti-Russian that I have to take a stand against it. I am not pro-Russia, I am more anti-your opinion, a contrarian.
So you support Russia just because you want to annoy Europeans.
It is no big deal because you have done it too. It's become par for the course.
So you keep claiming, without ever substantiating this claim.
No, but America can, using Ukr soil.
And Martians could land in Belarus and invade Russia!!!!
It gets worse if those "anti-missile defences" that Ukr will eventually get also come with nuclear warheads. That will put nuclear weapons on Russia's doorstep. And we all know a SAM can also act as a BM.
How many nuclear-tipped missile defense systems are there in Poland or Romania right now? Has NATO nuclear sharing ever been extended to new countries since the NPT?

Heck, how many nuclear-tipped SAMs are there in America? Not talking about long-retired systems like the Sprint, Spartan, or Nike. I'm talking stuff that exists now, is in use now, is part of doctrine now, and has not been abandoned as a terrible idea before you were even born.

Russian claims are bullshit. As usual.
We had argued this a long time ago. Even if there was no war, it would take 30+ years for Ukr to have the same lifestyle as the Russians.

Poland's per capita income PPP is $41K, Russia's is $31K and Ukraine's is/was $14K. Ukraine would have to grow 2 or 3 times faster than Russia to eventually catch up maybe 40-50 years down the line. By then Russia would have caught up with the West in living standards, thereby rendering your argument moot.
Having a GDP growing ten times faster by Russia is really easy, you just need not to be a corrupt hellhole of a country. Good thing is, Ukrainians want their country not to be a corrupt hellhole. This has greatly upset Putin, because corruption is the only tool Russia has to keep their former colonies into their sphere of influence. Russia's GDP growth goes directly into the oligarch's pockets, outside of he handful of big cities, Russia is still less developed than a poor third world country. Russia will never catch up with the West in living standards. The country's economy is not designed for that.
In fact, that's where just looking at the numbers blinds you to the reality. The reality is that the Ukrainians were already matching, and even exceeding, the living standards of Russia. You have to really understand how massive inequality is in Russia. Sure, the western-most parts of Russia are relatively prosperous, near the big cities. But as soon as you get away from those, it's abject poverty everywhere. All the money is concentrated in just a few pockets.
A frequent cause of Russian brutality against Ukrainian populations was caused by jealousy at just how prosperous the Ukrainians were for these Russian soldiers from underdeveloped regions.
Ukraine never had a chance at joining the EU simply because the population would have migrated to the EU. You wanna bet? Mexico's PPP per capita is $21000, but if the US opens up its border, pretty much the entire country will empty into the US.
The phenomenon exists but you greatly exaggerate it. This has happened to every formerly Soviet-satellite country that joined the EU, a lot have emigrated to the West for higher paying jobs, but the countries are not emptied. And there's very rapid economic growth as the countries rapidly catch up with the average.
CD4LFpy.jpg

SHL8iw6.png
(GDP per capita at purchasing power parity, the 2008 dip is caused by the subprime crisis if you forgot about it)
Ukrainians are smart, they're very good with maths and IT, they'd be able to create a lot of business at home.

So the politics involving this war is far deeper than simply economics or the EU. It's a very carefully planned action against Russia spanning decades.
Of course! Everything is a conspiracy of the Reptilians from Tau Ceti!

Nope, sorry. The reason Russia sucks is because of Russia. Specifically, because Russia is a dictatorial police state run by criminals. If you want "a carefully planned action against Russia spanning decades", then look at the FSB's plotting to seize control of Russia.
Stalin never sided with the Nazis.
Tell that to the Poles.
 
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This means that in 10 months the Russians lost more than 4x times the number of troops they lost over a 10-year period in the Soviet-Afghan war.

There are no words to describe what a colossal screw-up this has been for Russia.
This was expected , it is what you called a proper war in a very very long time.
 
Wasn't a feint.

The Changing Reading of the Hitler–Stalin Alliance​


BY CLAUDIA WEBER

On August 23, 1939 in Moscow, Hitler’s foreign minister Joachim von Ribbentrop and Stalin’s people’s commissar for foreign affairs Vyacheslav Molotov signed a nonaggression pact between Germany and the Soviet Union. Germany and the Soviet Union promised to maintain neutrality in the event of military conflicts with a third party and to refrain from attacking each other. The two regimes also secured their respective zones of influence in Eastern Europe and described those zones in a secret supplementary protocol, a document whose very existence the Soviet Union denied for decades. The treaty, known in Germany as the Hitler-Stalin Pact (though more commonly referred to as the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact), laid the foundation for the outbreak of World War II in Europe.

The Beginnings

On August 23, 1939, the German foreign minister’s plane landed in Moscow. Joachim von Ribbentrop had reluctantly interrupted his summer vacation in Salzburg for the signing of a treaty, which he thought was already a done deal. The talks between Britain, France, and the Soviet Union on a potential triple alliance had just failed. The big threat had just been avoided; everything else, in Ribbentrop’s view, paled in significance.

Yet Stalin did not think the matter resolved. He demanded that Ribbentrop go to Moscow so that, as Hitler informed his minister, “the essentials of the additional protocol desired by the Government of the USSR ... could be finalized as soon as possible.” After seven hours of intense negotiations, the parties drew up a secret supplementary protocol. In it, Germany and the Soviet Union agreed on the partition of Poland and Eastern Europe, including Finland. Four hours later, Ribbentrop and Molotov signed a nonaggression pact between Germany and the USSR. With this, the road to World War II in Europe was opened.

A few days later, on September 1, the German Wehrmacht entered Poland, and on September 17 the Red Army approached from the east. For the first twenty-two months of World War II, the Third Reich and the Soviet Union acted as allies and divided up the European continent between themselves. When, almost two years later, on June 22, 1941, the pact was violated, the territory that Hitler was adding to his realm had increased by 800,000 square kilometers, while Stalin had expanded his empire to the west and southeast by 422 square kilometers.


They were on the same side. Russia is 50% responsible for WW2. Without Stalin agreeing Der Fuhrer might have not made a move on Poland it was important for Der Fuhrer that Stalin agreed to this pact.

I'm pretty sure Indian history has a whole different account how this went. :rolleyes:

It was an alliance of convenience. Before WW2 began, France's number 1 threat was the SU and vice versa. So SU wanted to use Germany against France. Unbeknownst to all, the Nazis had their own plans. Neither side thought Germany was a threat 'cause they were all drunk on Kool-Aid. The Germans had built their war machine in secret.

The Germans of that time are like the Russians of today. Replace France with NATO and the SU with China and we see history repeating itself.
 
Yes, when a country is attacked, it rallies behind its leader. That's normal human psychology. Our group is threatened, we unite. When the threat is gone, then the internal squabbling can return. A good example of that was how Dubya Bush, which everyone held to be the stupidest POTUS ever and half the country thought had stolen the election through his brother's shenanigans in Florida, was triumphantly re-elected thanks to 9/11.

Er... I didn't know living in exile under treason charges is supporting one's country.

So you support Russia just because you want to annoy Europeans.

No. This war adversely affects the third world and India. If nothing else, I'm at least pro-India. If there's economic hurt in the EU, then imagine what's happening elsewhere. This war needs to finish very quickly. No one outside Europe gives two sh!ts about Ukraine. It's a Europe problem, so stop dragging down the world with you.

I really wonder what Germany will do without Russian gas the next winter. I wonder if France will bail out Germany. In the bigger picture, ensuring Russia's safety is more important. If not, just go to war with Russia and finish them off in one big swoop, NATO can win easily today at the cost of some 300 million Western lives, perhaps another few billion globally. Take China out too. We can rebuild the world later. Then everybody will be living in democracies.

So you keep claiming, without ever substantiating this claim.

Okay, you spoke about Ukraine going without power as something horrifying...

20 years on and Baghdad's power supply is still lesser than it should be.

And this even goes back to 1991.
Ever since the Operation Desert Storm in 1991, when the U.S. military repeatedly attacked its electric grid, Iraq has struggled to produce enough electricity to meet demand. In May 2018, some neighborhoods in Baghdad were getting just three hours of electricity per day. The ongoing electricity shortages sparked widespread anti-government protests that continued into 2019.

Iraq’s electricity woes can be traced to 1991, when the U.S.-led bombing campaign nearly destroyed Saddam Hussein’s electricity infrastructure. The campaign included 215 sorties aimed at Iraq’s grid. Cruise missiles outfitted with “blackout bombs,” which used tiny carbon filaments to short-circuit the Iraqi grid, also were used. Before the war, Iraq had about 9,500 megawatts of electricity generation capacity. By the time the bombing stopped, that had been reduced to about 300 megawatts. One analyst concluded that the attacks “virtually eliminated any ability of the Iraqi national power system to generate or transfer power.”


Would you like to calculate all the potential deaths caused by all that power the West destroyed and failed to build back? You do realise Western sanctions are one of the biggest global killers right?

How many nuclear-tipped missile defense systems are there in Poland or Romania right now? Has NATO nuclear sharing ever been extended to new countries since the NPT?

Heck, how many nuclear-tipped SAMs are there in America? Not talking about long-retired systems like the Sprint, Spartan, or Nike. I'm talking stuff that exists now, is in use now, is part of doctrine now, and has not been abandoned as a terrible idea before you were even born.

Russian claims are bullshit. As usual.

You do realise there are "ZERO" tactical nukes in the IA/IAF as well, right? Everything's supposed to be in civilian hands.

But you do realise there are stockpiles of tactical nukes in America that can be very, very quickly weaponised overnight, just like in India?

Having a GDP growing ten times faster by Russia is really easy, you just need not to be a corrupt hellhole of a country. Good thing is, Ukrainians want their country not to be a corrupt hellhole. This has greatly upset Putin, because corruption is the only tool Russia has to keep their former colonies into their sphere of influence. Russia's GDP growth goes directly into the oligarch's pockets, outside of he handful of big cities, Russia is still less developed than a poor third world country. Russia will never catch up with the West in living standards. The country's economy is not designed for that.
In fact, that's where just looking at the numbers blinds you to the reality. The reality is that the Ukrainians were already matching, and even exceeding, the living standards of Russia. You have to really understand how massive inequality is in Russia. Sure, the western-most parts of Russia are relatively prosperous, near the big cities. But as soon as you get away from those, it's abject poverty everywhere. All the money is concentrated in just a few pockets.
A frequent cause of Russian brutality against Ukrainian populations was caused by jealousy at just how prosperous the Ukrainians were for these Russian soldiers from underdeveloped regions.

The phenomenon exists but you greatly exaggerate it. This has happened to every formerly Soviet-satellite country that joined the EU, a lot have emigrated to the West for higher paying jobs, but the countries are not emptied. And there's very rapid economic growth as the countries rapidly catch up with the average.
CD4LFpy.jpg

SHL8iw6.png
(GDP per capita at purchasing power parity, the 2008 dip is caused by the subprime crisis if you forgot about it)
Ukrainians are smart, they're very good with maths and IT, they'd be able to create a lot of business at home.

Russia's 75% urban, it's not easy to hide poverty. Their Gini coefficient is all right and their HDI is higher than Ukraine.

That graph was a different time, when they had a lower base. Expecting Ukraine to do the same when they have to compete with the upcoming third world is quite unrealistic. As I said, even if Ukraine grows 2-3 times faster, the Russians will still get richer faster 'cause of their higher base, plus the fact that they are energy independent. This argument has no basis in reality. Only India and a few others in the third world have the potential today to meet such expectations, ie, 7% and higher growth, 'cause of lower base. Ukraine's higher base prevents such levels of growth.

Nope, sorry. The reason Russia sucks is because of Russia. Specifically, because Russia is a dictatorial police state run by criminals. If you want "a carefully planned action against Russia spanning decades", then look at the FSB's plotting to seize control of Russia.

I am talking about the US.
This was expected , it is what you called a proper war in a very very long time.

No. The Russians screwed up. Although Ukraine is a near-peer enemy to Russia, the Russians went in with no real plan. They were living in a dreamland when they started, and couldn't turn back time after waking up.