Air Battle over Kashmir : MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16

[thinkingcap81]

Quoting @randomradio from this thread: Mirage 2000H, MiG-29UPG, Jaguar DARIN III - Medium Multirole Aircraft of IAF

The M2000 with the current upgrade makes it an extremely advanced aircraft. It's actually the most useful jet for short wars.

It carries hardware specific to some missions that other aircraft cannot carry out properly.



120 Mig-21s are leaving by 2024-25. They are already well past their shelf lives. Rafale won't help. We need a single engine jet like the LCA, Gripen, F-16 or M2000. LCAs will take time, post 2025. Gripen/F-16 are not going to happen. Second-hand M2000 are the fastest. Those 13 new jets alone can cover an entire sector all on their own, like the LoC.

We will be in a very uncomfortable position between the end of 2023 and the end of 2027. That's how long it will take us to get 3 new squadrons of LCA. So every new squadron of M2000 buys us an extra year.



The IAF achieved their goal of attacking terrorists, quite successfully. PAF failed to retaliate successfully.

Can't speculate on what Pak would have done. But as per Indian chiefs, had Abhinandan not been caught, we would have followed up with a Brahmos attack on Pak naval installations, post which we would have seen the army initiate a short border war all along the IB. That man ruined it for us. But his saving grace was he brought down an F-16, which has been witnessed by many, including a lot of circumstantial evidence unwittingly given away by both the ISPR and the general public in the viscinity of the action. There's a lot of material on this subject already in the Balakot thread.

In terms of material loss, they blundered Op Swift Retort magnificently, and then lost 2 highly qualified pilots and their second best jet. Not to mention the loss of their EM capabilities and tactics. It's difficult to quantify their true loss since the loss of face amongst the terrorist leadership was immense.

Any names of the two pilots? Do we have proofs of two pilots? How do we know which F-16 version went down? As i said before whi losing ECM capabilities is with Pak alone? Supposedly our aircrafts also tried to counterattack. See i don't understand much - i'm just asking.

US told us to back off and told Pak to return Abhinandan ASAP. Pak also has cruise missiles. A short war has no winners, only the economic damage would have been more serious for Pak than India. And what about the Chinese tickling us no end?

 

[Lolwa]

Quoting @randomradio from this thread: Mirage 2000H, MiG-29UPG, Jaguar DARIN III - Medium Multirole Aircraft of IAF



Any names of the two pilots? Do we have proofs of two pilots? How do we know which F-16 version went down? As i said before whi losing ECM capabilities is with Pak alone? Supposedly our aircrafts also tried to counterattack. See i don't understand much - i'm just asking.

US told us to back off and told Pak to return Abhinandan ASAP. Pak also has cruise missiles. A short war has no winners, only the economic damage would have been more serious for Pak than India. And what about the Chinese tickling us no end?

It's because of the dgispr claims of three pilots being found. You don't claims three pilots captured by your military's PR if you aren't sure. Then we have video proofs of the locals talking about the "doosra banda" after they caught abhinandan. Plus awac imagery shown by IAF makes sense of the plane going down. US did not tell us crap. It was a UAE done diplomatic maneuvering that forced Pakistanis to give us abhinandan.
And since Pakistanis could not do any real damage on their own the element of escalation had passed..

 

[Hydra]

Quoting @randomradio from this thread: Mirage 2000H, MiG-29UPG, Jaguar DARIN III - Medium Multirole Aircraft of IAF



Any names of the two pilots? Do we have proofs of two pilots? How do we know which F-16 version went down? As i said before whi losing ECM capabilities is with Pak alone? Supposedly our aircrafts also tried to counterattack. See i don't understand much - i'm just asking.

US told us to back off and told Pak to return Abhinandan ASAP. Pak also has cruise missiles. A short war has no winners, only the economic damage would have been more serious for Pak than India. And what about the Chinese tickling us no end?

I dont beleive our version of missile threat, we were scared if their nukes just like hiw they scared about our nukes.

Actually Abhinandan saved our face, he become a pseudo pow and we backed of or escaped from retaliation for feb 27.

I do have the same doubt, unlike an army man a fighter pilots death or death funeral cannot be un noticed by his neighborhood people, and Pakistan still have some free media. If my memory is correct @randomradio or @vstol Jockey mentioned one such news came in pak media on death of a pak pilot. But i could not find it.

 

[Lolwa]

we were scared if their nukes just like hiw they scared about our nukes.

Actually Abhinandan saved our face, he become a pseudo pow and we backed of or escaped from retaliation for feb 27

No we weren't. Indian army isn't scared of the nuclear overhang. Our AD and BMD can pretty much handle most of their CM and Ballistic assets. What stopped us was abhinandan. The only facesaver was the dgispr screwing up and leaking that they had lost the F16 which made it a stalemate for the most part. There was a blackout in Karachi with CAPs done by the PAF all night.
And we only stopped because abhinandan was used to negotiated to stop the escalation. Cold start exists for a reason..

 

[randomradio]

Quoting @randomradio from this thread: Mirage 2000H, MiG-29UPG, Jaguar DARIN III - Medium Multirole Aircraft of IAF



Any names of the two pilots? Do we have proofs of two pilots?

That's up to PAF and GoP to publish.

How do we know which F-16 version went down? As i said before whi losing ECM capabilities is with Pak alone? Supposedly our aircrafts also tried to counterattack. See i don't understand much - i'm just asking.

Their attack was a flull fledged attack. They showed pretty much all their hands because their intention was to kill our CAPs, penetrate our air space and attack our air bases. We only defended, and hell we didn't even get to fire our own long range missiles. Our MKIs only have to perform manoeuvres to force the PAF to disengage. Their entire gambit rested on killing the MKIs for penetration. Failure there ended their mission by default since the air space immediately got crowded with IAF jets taking off, post which would only be a melee. And the only aircraft that showed off some capability was the Mig-21. They can keep its secrets.

Yeah, it's obvious even we would have lost some things, but it's not to the same level as what's needed for an offensive.

US told us to back off and told Pak to return Abhinandan ASAP. Pak also has cruise missiles. A short war has no winners, only the economic damage would have been more serious for Pak than India. And what about the Chinese tickling us no end?

You pointed out that Pak only wants to demonstrate equality. But what if the entire situation would have ended up with Indian troops on Pak soil all across the IB?

 

[randomradio]

I dont beleive our version of missile threat, we were scared if their nukes just like hiw they scared about our nukes.

Actually Abhinandan saved our face, he become a pseudo pow and we backed of or escaped from retaliation for feb 27.

I do have the same doubt, unlike an army man a fighter pilots death or death funeral cannot be un noticed by his neighborhood people, and Pakistan still have some free media. If my memory is correct @randomradio or @vstol Jockey mentioned one such news came in pak media on death of a pak pilot. But i could not find it.

The IA has constantly recommended taking over PoK using force.

Military deaths are easy to hush up.

 

[thinkingcap81]

It's because of the dgispr claims of three pilots being found. You don't claims three pilots captured by your military's PR if you aren't sure. Then we have video proofs of the locals talking about the "doosra banda" after they caught abhinandan. Plus awac imagery shown by IAF makes sense of the plane going down. US did not tell us crap. It was a UAE done diplomatic maneuvering that forced Pakistanis to give us abhinandan.
And since Pakistanis could not do any real damage on their own the element of escalation had passed..

Do we give so much importance to UAE (even if PAF uses F-16s from UAE)?

 

[thinkingcap81]

That's up to PAF and GoP to publish.



Their attack was a flull fledged attack. They showed pretty much all their hands because their intention was to kill our CAPs, penetrate our air space and attack our air bases. We only defended, and hell we didn't even get to fire our own long range missiles. Our MKIs only have to perform manoeuvres to force the PAF to disengage. Their entire gambit rested on killing the MKIs for penetration. Failure there ended their mission by default since the air space immediately got crowded with IAF jets taking off, post which would only be a melee. And the only aircraft that showed off some capability was the Mig-21. They can keep its secrets.

Yeah, it's obvious even we would have lost some things, but it's not to the same level as what's needed for an offensive.

As i said, i don't understand how they would convince the world of any justification for actual attack on Indian military bases. War and economy are interlinked. I feel that we're missing something.

Possibly if what you said is true and if they were successful then:

1. They would have said that IAF bombed their military installations and not any terrorist hideouts. They would have said that there are no terrorist hideouts and IAF actually bombed PA positions and GoI lied about targeting terrorist hideouts.
2. PAF is capable and has the guts to take IA and IAF bases out in retaliation. And their retaliation is justified since they are not the initiators.
3. If India continues with it's aggression then paint us as warmongers in the international community. Even if Pak is on the receiving end then still it makes their armed forces worthy of their existence and bravado.
4. Taking a gamble that in addition to bombing our infrastructure, downing a few MKIs would have led to IAF being too shell-shocked to respond and that there would be no option for India but to initiate a bigger war which would have few international takers.

You pointed out that Pak only wants to demonstrate equality. But what if the entire situation would have ended up with Indian troops on Pak soil all across the IB?

We do not have the same mindset as Pak armed forces and their security apparatus. We (and some of our policitians) may fantasize about taking over PoK, but carrying it out given the losses that would occur requires a totally different level of perception management for the domestic and international arena.

Even US did not smash Pakistan even thought they knew that Pak was double-crossing them in Afghanistan.

The IA has constantly recommended taking over PoK using force.

Military deaths are easy to hush up.

What is the reason for IAF to order 12 MKIs when we officially lost 11 of them?

 

[Lolwa]

Do we give so much importance to UAE (even if PAF uses F-16s from UAE)?

Saudi and UAE had a lot of influence on the Pakistanis because a lot of investment and loans come from them to the Pakistani and a lot of pakistani elite live in the UAE. So they had a lot of influence in Pakistani circles uptill 2020. Now since the MBS and UAE snubbing Pakistanis because of not sending there troops in yemen it's the Turks and qataris who are backing the Pakistanis and unlike the diplomatic Arabs. Turks and qataris are far more belligerent which will make the Pakistanis even more belligerent.

 

[randomradio]

As i said, i don't understand how they would convince the world of any justification for actual attack on Indian military bases. War and economy are interlinked. I feel that we're missing something.

Possibly if what you said is true and if they were successful then:

1. They would have said that IAF bombed their military installations and not any terrorist hideouts. They would have said that there are no terrorist hideouts and IAF actually bombed PA positions and GoI lied about targeting terrorist hideouts.
2. PAF is capable and has the guts to take IA and IAF bases out in retaliation. And their retaliation is justified since they are not the initiators.
3. If India continues with it's aggression then paint us as warmongers in the international community. Even if Pak is on the receiving end then still it makes their armed forces worthy of their existence and bravado.
4. Taking a gamble that in addition to bombing our infrastructure, downing a few MKIs would have led to IAF being too shell-shocked to respond and that there would be no option for India but to initiate a bigger war which would have few international takers.

Since we attacked Pakistan's sovereign territory, even though we had dressed it up as a non-military strike, the Pakistanis would have argued that they attacked us in defence. Until the world has a use for Pakistan, they won't get punished.

However we were prepared to go to war. And I'm sure that was conveyed to the Pakistanis in no uncertain terms. Anyway, I don't think downing the MKIs would have make the IAF unresponsive. The MKI isn't a magic bullet, even when it was introduced it was only said to have a 10-30% advantage over other 4th gen jets, which has slowly eroded due to not upgrading the jet.

We do not have the same mindset as Pak armed forces and their security apparatus. We (and some of our policitians) may fantasize about taking over PoK, but carrying it out given the losses that would occur requires a totally different level of perception management for the domestic and international arena.

Even US did not smash Pakistan even thought they knew that Pak was double-crossing them in Afghanistan.

We can take PoK, we have the ability, and with acceptable losses. The Pakistanis do not have the ability to fight us in the mountains. The problem is what to do after that, primarily dealing with the radicalised population living there.

What is the reason for IAF to order 12 MKIs when we officially lost 11 of them?

It's attrition replacements. All air forces do this.

We have lost 10 jets in total and have ordered 14 extra. We had once ordered 42 jets, 2 of those were attrition replacements, and now 12 more. There are no unofficial losses, all that we have lost is public information as per our laws. Anyway the 4 extra jets would take care of any future crashes, so we will maintain full strength this decade.

 

[Hydra]

We can take PoK, we have the ability, and with acceptable losses. The Pakistanis do not have the ability to fight us in the mountains. The problem is what to do after that, primarily dealing with the radicalised population living there.

Gilgit & Baltistan people aren't radicalized one. We can take back these two areas and control it,if we are capable for a military attack.

 

[randomradio]

Gilgit & Baltistan people aren't radicalized one. We can take back these two areas and control it,if we are capable for a military attack.

Most of the place is infested by radicals, because that's what Pak has done to it. The original inhabitants are now the minority.

 

[thinkingcap81]

We can take PoK, we have the ability, and with acceptable losses. The Pakistanis do not have the ability to fight us in the mountains. The problem is what to do after that, primarily dealing with the radicalised population living there.

Managing the perception and justification of acceptable losses is difficult at this age. The art of war is changing. Cyberspace is getting very important.

I think that once we have machines effectively doing the work of a soldier the dynamics will again change - the battlefield can be controlled by humans staying away from danger. But this is a very long way off.

 

[Chain Smoker]

As i said, i don't understand how they would convince the world of any justification for actual attack on Indian military bases. War and economy are interlinked. I feel that we're missing something.

Possibly if what you said is true and if they were successful then:

1. They would have said that IAF bombed their military installations and not any terrorist hideouts. They would have said that there are no terrorist hideouts and IAF actually bombed PA positions and GoI lied about targeting terrorist hideouts.
2. PAF is capable and has the guts to take IA and IAF bases out in retaliation. And their retaliation is justified since they are not the initiators.
3. If India continues with it's aggression then paint us as warmongers in the international community. Even if Pak is on the receiving end then still it makes their armed forces worthy of their existence and bravado.
4. Taking a gamble that in addition to bombing our infrastructure, downing a few MKIs would have led to IAF being too shell-shocked to respond and that there would be no option for India but to initiate a bigger war which would have few international takers.

We do not have the same mindset as Pak armed forces and their security apparatus. We (and some of our policitians) may fantasize about taking over PoK, but carrying it out given the losses that would occur requires a totally different level of perception management for the domestic and international arena.

Even US did not smash Pakistan even thought they knew that Pak was double-crossing them in Afghanistan.

What is the reason for IAF to order 12 MKIs when we officially lost 11 of them?

1 su 30 will be for HAL.

 

[randomradio]

Managing the perception and justification of acceptable losses is difficult at this age.

We are still a third world country, so casualties is something that's last on the minds of the people. And it's been quite peaceful since Modi came to power. Before him, we used to always be peppered with attacks and bomb blasts. A mango man has a short memory.

I think that once we have machines effectively doing the work of a soldier the dynamics will again change - the battlefield can be controlled by humans staying away from danger. But this is a very long way off.

We need to find new ways to protect infantry. The Americans solved that by throwing money at it, using overwhelming firepower. China's following suit. We are gonna start that process in a big way as well, like the creation of a rocket force, while we already have that capability against Pakistan already.

 

[Lolwa]

Since we attacked Pakistan's sovereign territory, even though we had dressed it up as a non-military strike, the Pakistanis would have argued that they attacked us in defence. Until the world has a use for Pakistan, they won't get punished.

However we were prepared to go to war. And I'm sure that was conveyed to the Pakistanis in no uncertain terms. Anyway, I don't think downing the MKIs would have make the IAF unresponsive. The MKI isn't a magic bullet, even when it was introduced it was only said to have a 10-30% advantage over other 4th gen jets, which has slowly eroded due to not upgrading the jet.



We can take PoK, we have the ability, and with acceptable losses. The Pakistanis do not have the ability to fight us in the mountains. The problem is what to do after that, primarily dealing with the radicalised population living there.



It's attrition replacements. All air forces do this.

We have lost 10 jets in total and have ordered 14 extra. We had once ordered 42 jets, 2 of those were attrition replacements, and now 12 more. There are no unofficial losses, all that we have lost is public information as per our laws. Anyway the 4 extra jets would take care of any future crashes, so we will maintain full strength this decade.

One aircraft that was lost is actually repaired now or what??

 

[thinkingcap81]

One aircraft that was lost is actually repaired now or what??

You're referring to 10 MKIs in @randomradio 's post you quoted - so your question is about the 11th one?

 

[randomradio]

One aircraft that was lost is actually repaired now or what??

There's no news about it.

 

[Lolwa]

You're referring to 10 MKIs in @randomradio 's post you quoted - so your question is about the 11th one?

Yup. We had 262 mki's.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Ask any IAF veterans. The thing we & them boasted in defense forums are far from reality. They are skilled pilots like ours, they were having pretty good stuffs till mid 90s too.

We must thank them for the following things

1 Pushing the acquisition of SDRs
Because they Foolishly Boasted about Having jammed our Communications

They could have kept it a secret and we would have been still unaware of it

2 Pushing for the Acquisition of Long Range Air to Air Missiles

3 Pushing for Acquisition of More AWACS

4 Scrapping of Rules of Engagement

Now we can fire Meteors and R 37

5 Showing us the importance of a large stock of Stand Off PGMs , which we are now acquiring -- Both Domestic and Imported

6 Importance of Information Warfare

7 Showing that a limited one off Skirmish is a False and Bad Concept in an Ariel Battle

We will have to go for a Wider Air battle to declare victory

8 Rectifying the Mistakes in our IFF protocol which led to the friendly fire incident