Air Battle over Kashmir : MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16

vstol Jockey said:
The development of R-77-1 was cleared in mid 2000 and it was supposed to be the standard weapon for SU-30MKI. IAF asked for this version the moment russians offered it to IAF. However the order from IAF did not come till after Balakot. This delayed the operational deployment of this missile as Russians were having financial problems then and had very limited budget to develop this missile.
But even if it was mass produced in 2015, why did we not go for it when we knew that F-16s now outrange our main fighters?
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The one released in 2015 was the Russian version, it's unclear how long the export version, RVV-SD, took to become ready. Then we need to follow it up with flight trials of our own, then contract negotiations etc. It's unfortunate that the Russians took so long to develop an Aim-120C equivalent. However their main focus is on the R-77M.

And, as I have pointed out before, DRDO does a splendid job of vetoing imports. Take the IA's QRSAM requirement, they said they will accept 5 regiments of DRDO's QRSAM while importing 3 regiments of SPYDER SR. This was promptly vetoed. DRDO pointed out that they will deliver the QRSAM for user trials in 2019 and have it delivered from 2020 onwards. But it's already 2021 and the user trials are yet to begin (although it's set to happen very soon). Development trials completed last year in November. So instead of having even 1 fully operational SPYDER regiment inducted and placed in Ladakh, while in the process of inducting the third this year, the army only has a few prototype batteries of the QRSAM deployed in Ladakh. Similarly, the SRSAM requirement for 2 SPYDER regiments was also scuttled in favour of Akash Mk1 Prime, which is yet to be ordered as well.

However, to be fair to DRDO, even the IAF was interested in Astra over importing Russian missiles, so it's likely that the IAF also miscalculated, although even if they wanted to, they wouldn't have been able to procure RVV-SDs through the normal route regardless. Anyway, the IAF wouldn't be working on Derby ER if it wasn't for emergency purchases, the DRDO would have vetoed even that due to Astra Mk2. And now, with SFDR's success, you can bet the DRDO will veto any Meteor-related purchases for non-Rafale aircraft in the future. DRDO can put the UNSC to shame.
 
randomradio said:
The one released in 2015 was the Russian version, it's unclear how long the export version, RVV-SD, took to become ready. Then we need to follow it up with flight trials of our own, then contract negotiations etc. It's unfortunate that the Russians took so long to develop an Aim-120C equivalent. However their main focus is on the R-77M.

And, as I have pointed out before, DRDO does a splendid job of vetoing imports. Take the IA's QRSAM requirement, they said they will accept 5 regiments of DRDO's QRSAM while importing 3 regiments of SPYDER SR. This was promptly vetoed. DRDO pointed out that they will deliver the QRSAM for user trials in 2019 and have it delivered from 2020 onwards. But it's already 2021 and the user trials are yet to begin (although it's set to happen very soon). Development trials completed last year in November. So instead of having even 1 fully operational SPYDER regiment inducted and placed in Ladakh, while in the process of inducting the third this year, the army only has a few prototype batteries of the QRSAM deployed in Ladakh. Similarly, the SRSAM requirement for 2 SPYDER regiments was also scuttled in favour of Akash Mk1 Prime, which is yet to be ordered as well.

However, to be fair to DRDO, even the IAF was interested in Astra over importing Russian missiles, so it's likely that the IAF also miscalculated, although even if they wanted to, they wouldn't have been able to procure RVV-SDs through the normal route regardless. Anyway, the IAF wouldn't be working on Derby ER if it wasn't for emergency purchases, the DRDO would have vetoed even that due to Astra Mk2. And now, with SFDR's success, you can bet the DRDO will veto any Meteor-related purchases for non-Rafale aircraft in the future. DRDO can put the UNSC to shame.
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Last sentence is funny & an Eye opener, sadly you can see same mentality among many members even in this "DEFENSE " forum.

By the way if my memory is correct, you have said earlier that even Rafale could not shoot f26 at that range provided by being in MKI's height.
 
Hydra said:
Last sentence is funny & an Eye opener, sadly you can see same mentality among many members even in this "DEFENSE " forum.

By the way if my memory is correct, you have said earlier that even Rafale could not shoot f26 at that range provided by being in MKI's height.
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The Rafale can, with the Meteor. There's no point in discussing tactics though.
 
STEPHEN COHEN said:
We must thank them for the following things

1 Pushing the acquisition of SDRs
Because they Foolishly Boasted about Having jammed our Communications

They could have kept it a secret and we would have been still unaware of it
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This was in the works since 2013. We signed the contract for BNET a few days before the attack on Balakot.

STEPHEN COHEN said:
2 Pushing for the Acquisition of Long Range Air to Air Missiles
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This was already in the works though. The IAF was deciding between the Meteor and Derby ER since a few years before Balakot. Where it helped is hastening the induction of the Derby ER.

STEPHEN COHEN said:
3 Pushing for Acquisition of More AWACS
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This was also in the works since years. Balakot did not change this.
 
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randomradio said:
This was in the works since 2013. We signed the contract for BNET a few days before the attack on Balakot.



This was already in the works though. The IAF was deciding between the Meteor and Derby ER since a few years before Balakot. Where it helped is hastening the induction of the Derby ER.



This was also in the works since years. Balakot did not change this.
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These are all Post Facto Excuses

If you look carefully , Our Enemies have been very helpful in Showing our Weaknesses

Right from 1962 , To 1965 , Kargil , Mumbai 26 / 11 , Pathankot , Uri , Pulwama and Feb 26 /27 --- ALL of these
Have been Great Learning Experiences

If Balakot had not happened then
We would have been badly defeated in case GALWAN had escalated into a 2 front conflict

Now imagine IAF planes carrying out CAPs over Ladakh and Close to LOC

And Suddenly at 10 AM in JUNE 2020 , BOTH F 16s and J 16s fire their Long Range BVRAAMs

At least after FEB 2019 , till JUNE 2020
We had acquired large number of Newer BVR AAMs from Russia as "Emergency Purchases "

The Shortcomings of Feb 2019 prevented a Bigger disaster after Galwan
 
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screambowl said:
I'll be more interested in discussing what changes did the Pakistanis bring any updates on their part of modernization?
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In case you have noticed , Now a Days
China is sending 30 planes together at once Towards TAIWAN

So we can and Should Expect a Similar Tactical Scenario

Both PAF and PLAAF will send 30 planes each Towards LOC and LAC

Can Srinagar and Avantipura Bases
Handle such Big Attacks

In case of PAF we will have to hit back across IB like Sargodha , Jacobabad and Masroor
 
randomradio said:
Oh, really? I had pointed out years ago that the Gripen E is the best bet for them to compete with the IAF.
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The Best thing that has happened to Pakistanis is that , finally they have Grudgingly Accepted that the LCA programme though late has created a massive industrial knowledge base
Which will take us towards MK 2 and AMCA

They are also accepting that their Role in Design and development of JF 17 was negligible and hence forth they are totally dependent on China and Turkey for more advanced planes

Their strategy against IAF is in firing
A Large number of PL 10 / PL 15 from their 150 odd JF 17s to prevent IAF from intrusions
 
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randomradio said:
Oh, really? I had pointed out years ago that the Gripen E is the best bet for them to compete with the IAF.
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It's a good match with their Erieye system along with J10s. And if they fail to get it once again then they will have to move to chinese option.

STEPHEN COHEN said:
In case you have noticed , Now a Days
China is sending 30 planes together at once Towards TAIWAN

So we can and Should Expect a Similar Tactical Scenario

Both PAF and PLAAF will send 30 planes each Towards LOC and LAC

Can Srinagar and Avantipura Bases
Handle such Big Attacks
Click to expand...

Last month they also activated their AfB near Indian border in POJK due to Af issue.
They have J10s we have Su30mki rest depends on the BVR systems.
 
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screambowl said:
It's a good match with their Erieye system along with J10s. And if they fail to get it once again then they will have to move to chinese option.



Last month they also activated their AfB near Indian border in POJK due to Af issue.
They have J10s we have Su30mki rest depends on the BVR systems.
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They do not have any J10s as of now.
 
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randomradio said:
Oh, really? I had pointed out years ago that the Gripen E is the best bet for them to compete with the IAF.
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They are thinking of J10s now to match our Rafale acquisition. Gripen E with US engine? No way. They are not fully convinced of JF17 blk3 against our Rafales though they claim many things. Its not very different from our MKI story post Balakot as we also realised now that our MKIs need serious upgrades.
screambowl said:
Yes, but they will be getting 36 soon by this year or next.

So their dream fleet is, F16 + Jas Gripen C/D, J10
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No more western fighter aircraft for them, support aircrafts like the ones from Leonardo are fine for now. It's over now and they know it. Pak economy isn't great and US will extract revenge. Making Pak more dependent on China is the way to weaken her.
 
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STEPHEN COHEN said:
They are also accepting that their Role in Design and development of JF 17 was negligible and hence forth they are totally dependent on China and Turkey for more advanced planes
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That Adm Shaheed Latif quite literally lied through his teeth about it in an interview, when he was asked to explain how India needed dozens of labs to create the LCA while Pak didn't have any such labs. That's how disingenous they really are.

STEPHEN COHEN said:
Their strategy against IAF is in firing
A Large number of PL 10 / PL 15 from their 150 odd JF 17s to prevent IAF from intrusions
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Good luck to them then.

screambowl said:
It's a good match with their Erieye system along with J10s. And if they fail to get it once again then they will have to move to chinese option.
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The Swedes won't sell it to them though.

thinkingcap81 said:
They are thinking of J10s now to match our Rafale acquisition. Gripen E with US engine? No way. They are not fully convinced of JF17 blk3 against our Rafales though they claim many things. Its not very different from our MKI story post Balakot as we also realised now that our MKIs need serious upgrades.
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There's nothing wrong with the MKI when it comes to air defence, it's still extremely formidable. Against 4th gen jets, it's still extremely effective, that's not changed. During Balakot, while it did not have equivalent missiles, the MKIs simply did not get the opportunity to fire back since the PAF formation had dissolved by then. You can also bet they had kept their missiles in reserve for a situation where the PAF actually crossed the LoC, so a closer range fight would have increased the pk of their missiles.

An upgraded MKI also wouldn't have helped in that situation because the main limiting factor was the BVR missile.
 
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I don't think they will purchase any j10 ,more or less they have accepted that they can't even have minimum deterrence against india san nuclear.ppl can say anything ,but china will not sell it for free and pakistani with their economy in gutter will be unable to afford anytime soon.i will believe only when I see j10 in pakistani color.

Hone ko to ,they have created 500 page of fantasy on peedef, ranging from su 35 to euro fighter
 
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vikata said:
I don't think they will purchase any j10 ,more or less they have accepted that they can't even have minimum deterrence against india san nuclear.ppl can say anything ,but china will not sell it for free and pakistani with their economy in gutter will be unable to afford anytime soon.i will believe only when I see j10 in pakistani color.

Hone ko to ,they have created 500 page of fantasy on peedef, ranging from su 35 to euro fighter
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Now that their cash cow " US " Has left,
U can expect terror strikes against Chinese and paid Pak army protection for them.

They earn somehow..

Involving army means expenditure..
While expendable terrorist is very cheap.. To reap some bucks.
 
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randomradio said:
Oh, really? I had pointed out years ago that the Gripen E is the best bet for them to compete with the IAF.
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Yeas, highly likely,Recent indo sweedish mistrust will prevent us from putting pressure over sweeden. They pulled back from P75I tendering processes first, before that we had awarded Russians the man portable SAM contract, despite of Russian systems being inferior to sweedish & french system. If Pakistan having money Sweeds will sell them Gripen E without any second thought. Problem is Gripen E will be almost a match for Rafale, and our 36 number wont be sufficient even for PAF.
vikata said:
I don't think they will purchase any j10 ,more or less they have accepted that they can't even have minimum deterrence against india san nuclear.ppl can say anything ,but china will not sell it for free and pakistani with their economy in gutter will be unable to afford anytime soon.i will believe only when I see j10 in pakistani color.

Hone ko to ,they have created 500 page of fantasy on peedef, ranging from su 35 to euro fighter
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When comes to national security, pakistan government dont care about money. A good example we should follows.

Just remember their infamous quote after we detonate the fist nuclear device some 50 yrs back.
 
randomradio said:
That Adm Shaheed Latif quite literally lied through his teeth about it in an interview, when he was asked to explain how India needed dozens of labs to create the LCA while Pak didn't have any such labs. That's how disingenous they really are.



Good luck to them then.



The Swedes won't sell it to them though.



There's nothing wrong with the MKI when it comes to air defence, it's still extremely formidable. Against 4th gen jets, it's still extremely effective, that's not changed. During Balakot, while it did not have equivalent missiles, the MKIs simply did not get the opportunity to fire back since the PAF formation had dissolved by then. You can also bet they had kept their missiles in reserve for a situation where the PAF actually crossed the LoC, so a closer range fight would have increased the pk of their missiles.

An upgraded MKI also wouldn't have helped in that situation because the main limiting factor was the BVR missile.
Click to expand...
Last time when plaaf SU30s faces Gripen in BVR combat in exercise , they suffered heavy loss.
 
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