Why you are bringing feb27 & follow up incidents when i said that PAF pilots are skilled? Go through you own post and find out what is its relevance to the thing i said.
Air Battle over Kashmir : MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16
- Thread starter Ashwin
- Start date
First ask to them have equal flying hours. No one can create skills by sitting on ground.
What is the sense in talking of only the Skills of PAF pilots
I would say that IAF pilots showed greater Tactical skills because they held off a much Larger package of enemy planes , Shot down a F 16 And evaded Amraams
The Battle must be looked at Comprehensively draw the Right lessons
Imagine that there was NO Balakot and Feb 27
And then Later , Suddenly Galwan happened and a Two front war breaks out
We would have been completely unaware of our weaknesses
Ok jokes apart...
PAF and their pilots of 1965-1999 and PAF and their pilots of 2020s Both are different.
During 1965 PAF had F-86 sabre Jets and during 1980-1990s PAF had F-16s which were one of the best and most advanced fighters of respective era and due to better economy of Pakistan during that era pilots were highly trained and very much at par with the best in the world.
Alas not now. Those F-16s are no longer the best or most advanced fighters, in fact can be brought down by a IAF vintage MiG-21 as seen in the skirmish after balakot strike. Jf17s are not even in the league of F-16 block 52 and with Russian klimov 93 engines are more of a FLYING COFFIN than a fighter plane.
And due to Pakistan economy in doldrums there isn't money for proper training of fighter pilots as it needs costly fuel and spares for maintenance to keep flying those fighter planes for training which PAF don't have luxury of doing in current scenario.
Now compare it with IAF which is having Rafale, su30mkis, MiG 29upg, upgraded Mirage 2k, and LCA Tejas IAF is one of the most advanced Air force in the world with its pilots having ample training as shown by wing commander Abhinandan who shot down F-16 with a vintage MiG-21...
Ok jokes apart...
PAF and their pilots of 1965-1999 and PAF and their pilots of 2020s Both are different.
During 1965 PAF had F-86 sabre Jets and during 1980-1990s PAF had F-16s which were one of the best and most advanced fighters of respective era and due to better economy of Pakistan during that era pilots were highly trained and very much at par with the best in the world.
Alas not now. Those F-16s are no longer the best or most advanced fighters, in fact can be brought down by a IAF vintage MiG-21 as seen in the skirmish after balakot strike. Jf17s are not even in the league of F-16 block 52 and with Russian klimov 93 engines are more of a FLYING COFFIN than a fighter plane.
And due to Pakistan economy in doldrums there isn't money for proper training of fighter pilots as it needs costly fuel and spares for maintenance to keep flying those fighter planes for training which PAF don't have luxury of doing in current scenario.
Now compare it with IAF which is having Rafale, su30mkis, MiG 29upg, upgraded Mirage 2k, and LCA Tejas IAF is one of the most advanced Air force in the world with its pilots having ample training as shown by wing commander Abhinandan who shot down F-16 with a vintage MiG-21...
If we are discussing IAF planes and likely battle scenarios , then I think Feb 27 and Balakot discussion cannot be Avoided
It was like an Entire "Graduation course " packed in 2 days
Why not when just 8 Indian pilots defeated 24 top pilots of PAF and made them to flee. This alone shows the level of training.
Post Balakot strike Mujra by PAF was the best thing that could have happened to IAF. Now PAF will get a huge shock in air. It was also a wake up call for our Babus in MOD who sat on files for long resulting in degradation of the capabilities of IAF. The high point of the day was the exceptional ability of IAF to evade incoming missiles. Out of a total of six AIM120C fired only one could get a hit that too on a MIg-21. Su-30MKI defeated all of them. Now we have formulated new tactics and new procedures to ensure that PAF Barrier CAP is effectively repulsed and taken care of with maximum damage done to them if they try it next time. It is like finding a counter to Chakraview formation.
If you members may recall, I had posted that I would have launched a massive counter attack and attacked the bases from which these aircraft took off to catch them either in air or on ground while the act in POK was still on as the entire IAF was ready for such an eventuality and so were other sister services. This forum is read by the people who are in this business. They have done exactly this. The PAF aircraft will not be allowed to land back next time. They will all be either shot down during the battle or while they return for landing or taken out on ground or will have no place to land.
If you members may recall, I had posted that I would have launched a massive counter attack and attacked the bases from which these aircraft took off to catch them either in air or on ground while the act in POK was still on as the entire IAF was ready for such an eventuality and so were other sister services. This forum is read by the people who are in this business. They have done exactly this. The PAF aircraft will not be allowed to land back next time. They will all be either shot down during the battle or while they return for landing or taken out on ground or will have no place to land.
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Sir;
a) "degradation of IAF's skills" - is that a pardonable crime? How many babus (if any) were punished?
b) why did the IAF need to get shock treatment before they realized lacunae in their skills / tools? Does the exercises with various other airforces not show them the lacunae?
c) my understanding of your post "IAF was able to evade missiles effectively. Other than that, PAF did come out well on that day". Is my understanding correct?
PS: I am at work and typed hurriedly. Hopefully, I communicated my questions well.
@vstol Jockey @randomradio
I was watching "cut the clutter" by sekhar gupta (I am aware he is no military expert). He suggested that the friendly fire that hit the IAF helicopter during PAF on Y2019 is because of lack of co-ordination between IAF and IA. Basically, he seemed to suggest that the IA units (which fired the missile) was not made aware by IAF that it's helicopter took off.
a) Could that be true? I am aware the accident happened due to lack of communication / co-ordination. But my question is - Is that lack of communication / co-ordination between IAF and IA units?
b) I was under the impression (not sure where I gathered it) that the unit that fired the missile is also from IAF. True??
c) Also, he suggested that the theatre commands will avoid such lack of co-ordination.
There was no degradation of skills but that of capabilities. PAF acquired AIM120C in mid 2000 and they outranged our missiles. IAF wanted longer ranged missiles but that clearance did not come till after Balakot.
PAF did not come out well on that day as they failed to shoot down any aircraft on that day which they intended to shoot down even with a Barrier CAP of over 12 F-16s and 8 JF-17s. Just 2xSu-30MKI and 2x M2k were able to hold them off and the point defence fighter like Mig-21 managed to shoot down an F-16. If anyone says that PAF outperformed IAF on 27th, that guy needs to get his head checked.
PAF had come out to shoot down atleast one Su-30MKI on that day but ended up losong an F-16 to a Mig-21.
The missile was not fired by IA but by IAF. The clearance to fire was given by the Station COO, a Gp. Capt. The Air defence center had not marked it hostile nor did they initiate any action against the Helicopter but the local commanders misjudged and they took a decision at local level defying the area air defence center. The command structure is well proven and worked well even on 27th in all other areas except for Srinagar where this mistake was done.
Coupta is the last man you should ever hear/read on Military matters.
IA doesn't operate SPYDERs, it was the IAF.
Theatre Command doesn't solve the issue of adhering to SOPs. The SAM commander screwed up big time, nothing else to it. AFAIK, he pulled rank over his junior officers even when they pointed out that it's a friendly. The helicopter pilots also screwed up by not switching on their IFF. So failure of SOPs all around.
We had 2 Rambos in the IAF that day. Rambos in the military are fine for reel life, not real life.
The RVV-SD for the RuAF began deliveries only in 2017 and the Derby ER achieved IOC in 2018, so neither of them would have made it into the IAF in time. We just got unlucky with the supplies.
The 110km range improved R-77 was available since mid 2000.
More than range of an a2a missile, lacking platform which is designed to handle the scenarios forces us to taste bitter experience.
A single mig31 would have changed the scenario, it could easily target PAF AWACS with no time, and they would have gone blind. IAF did miss the mig25 successor on that day.
You're mistaken with the R-27EA. The RVV-SD entered service only in 2015, and serial production deliveries began in 2017. The Su-35S was the first to get it. The Russians showed the missile off in Syria for the first time. Before RVV-SD the Russians never operated the R-77 family.
You are mistaken bro. When USA gave Aim-120C to PAF, they very clearly stated that they wanted to bring somekind of parity between IAF and PAF. In Kargil war IAF had the advantage as we had BVRAAMs while PAF lacked them. If you read the news reports of that time, IAF had asked for R-77-1 as a counter and that was held back.
The first time Russians ordered it was back in 2009, but it was LRIP, with deliveries in 2011. Then came an order for state trials in 2012, it was also a very small order. Their first large scale order was only in 2015 for the operational version.
The problem for the IAF was since Astra Mk1 was being developed in the same class, DRDO could easily veto imports. Only after emergency purchases was authorised that the IAF could bypass DRDO. So our main counter to the PAF Aim-120Cs was the Astra.
We also need to fix the utilization of air defense assets asap ... remember a fighter plane won't be available 24/7 on all border front to engage hostile aircraft.
The development of R-77-1 was cleared in mid 2000 and it was supposed to be the standard weapon for SU-30MKI. IAF asked for this version the moment russians offered it to IAF. However the order from IAF did not come till after Balakot. This delayed the operational deployment of this missile as Russians were having financial problems then and had very limited budget to develop this missile.
But even if it was mass produced in 2015, why did we not go for it when we knew that F-16s now outrange our main fighters?
This was discussed here till death, that at that height mki or even any other aircraft wont be able to shoot f16, even with long ranged missile.