Air Battle over Kashmir : MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16

[Lolwa]

The A/Bs have been upgraded to Block 40 standards. Block 50 onwards uses a different airframe. But the avionics build is quite similar.

Mk1A and B3, it depends. Regardless of whether the B3's avionics are better or worse, the real difference is airframe. The LCA has been made for BVR combat and its use of composites and more modern design has pushed RCS to reduced observable class, ie 0.1m2. Whereas JF-17 B1 and B2 are similar to the F-16, ie, between 1-5m2. What it means is if a radar can detect a JF-17 from 150Km, the same radar will detect the LCA only from 75Km. So the question is if the B3 has been made reduced observable or retains the same RCS as its earlier models. The JF-17 has been designed to be closer to a ground attack aircraft than an air superiority aircraft, so it won't meet the performance standards of the LCA for air combat.

Attrition depends on technology. In the previous wars, we mostly used inferior tech compared to the PAF, so they had the upperhand in technology. But technology did not play as significant a part then as it does now. Today, technology can make a force absolutely overwhelming. If tech is on your side and it's enough to be termed RMA, then it's going to create an asymmetric difference. And we have this against the PAF.

Their nuclear sabre-rattling ended due to US pressure.

Tejas has 0.1 sqm RCS??
Isn't it 0.9-1 ?

 

[Sathya]

Now that their cash cow " US " Has left,
U can expect terror strikes against Chinese and paid Pak army protection for them.

They earn somehow..

Involving army means expenditure..
While expendable terrorist is very cheap.. To reap some bucks.

Just thinking more on this...

Their military had invested in civilian sectors.
Doing guard duty for Chinese
As hired gun in Afghanistan for usa
As a Nuke umbrella provider to gulf countries
Off shore deposits.
Illegal weapons and drug sale..

These all over their military budget which they get holding the neck of selected government..

May be this is how they still make weapons purchase.

 

[Hydra]

Tejas has 0.1 sqm RCS??
Isn't it 0.9-1 ?

Any low observable, but non stealth aircraft is as good as any normal aircraft. The moment you hang weapons under these aircrafts, its RCS gonna reach near to 1.5 m2 and that RCS is visible to any modern radar at BVR.
This was the statement from harsh vardhan thakur on low rcs aircraft advantages in air battle.

 

[randomradio]

I thought that external weapons reduce this advantage significantly.

Not as much as you think. It's additive. Missiles have very small RCS. The ASRAAM is apparently between 0.01-0.001m2, so it doesn't contribute much to the aircraft's RCS. More modern BVR missiles are below 0.1m2 as well. So when you add 0.1 with a bunch of 0.1s and 0.01s, you don't get a very significant increase in RCS. Tanks and other payloads add to RCS in a significant way, although pylons can be made to have low RCS.

None of these are stealth, but definitely low RCS, low enough to create a significant disparity in detection ranges. I mean, even the Su-35's RCS reduction from 15-20 to 1-3m2 is a very significant upgrade. The same with the reduction of just 5m2 on the F-16A/B to F-16C/D.

In enough numbers? Maybe a decade from now if the MKIs get upgraded and more Rafales come.

Just the 36 Rafales gives us a massive advantage over the PAF.

I know that you believe this. But they have successfully sabotaged US's Afg operations. Economic hits are already there, but to a perceived existential threat like India, i find it hard to accept that US pressure is adequate enough to make them suddenly stop.

Why not?

For IAF against PAF? Too tough without heavy attrition and leaving the eastern flank completely exposed. The operation IAF took during the Balakot operation shows how much planning and deception IAF had to take against PAF so that they could enter Pak airspace safely for a brief period of time.

Er... What PAF did was very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very normal. Emphasis on very.

It's like saying damn we lost the Indo-Pak cricket match because the Pakistani players entered the ground. Nah, mate, it's about what they do after they are in. Air forces can't create a magic wall that stops the enemy from entering our airspace, especially when the difference between our airspace and their's is just an imaginary line on a piece of paper.

What about Mig-29s? Without upgrades was it so bad?

Well, yeah. The Mig-29's radar capability was way worse than the Mig-21 Bison's. The Mig-29 was already 20 years old, with export grade Soviet crap, whereas the Mig-21 had the more modern Kopyo-M with the ability to track and engage multiple targets, no different from all the other advanced 4th gen jets. Plus it was integrated with a modern EW suite and an Israeli jammer. It took the PAF 10+ years to match its capabilities with the F-16 upgrade, whereas JF-17 took 15 years, and it still lacks some capabilities

 

[randomradio]

Tejas has 0.1 sqm RCS??
Isn't it 0.9-1 ?

M2000's RCS is below 1m2, actually 0.8m2, and the LCA Mk1's RCS is three times lower than the M2000's. So that's 0.3m2. Mk1A further sees RCS improvements.

 

[AbRaj]

IAF MiG 21 inventory is the goldmine of IAF... so many peoples pocket money come from these maintenance jobs

Also Its the most effective way of Population Control, IAF had employed in its history.

Nothing wrong with the claim. That's how long it takes during surge ops to conquer the skies. The only way for them to survive is to not fly at all, which is what the PAF did in 1971.

As for the Mig-21, it's pretty much our most important aircraft when it comes to air defence. Which is why it was Abhinandan's Mig-21 that brought down the F-16, not the MKIs and M2000s.

I have yet to see a single physical evidence to support that "IAF Claim". may be its like all of their usual claims and devoid of any truth, who knows. its very similar to PAF claim of downing of single/multiple Su30s without showing any evidence to support that. so theoretically in the Claims department too, PAF wins hands down specially considering claims like Doosra Banda and Teesra in Hospital.
Also they had a burning Mig21 and the captured and beaten pilot to show off unlike IAF with a metal piece of an AMRAAM.
Plus we had a downed heli with six charred bodies and a jubilating and cheering mob to show our incompetence too.
Its too tragic to even remember

So it's actually the opposite of what you are trying to say. Even during CI exercises with the US, they pointed out how the Mig-21s would just show up out of nowhere, take them out and disappear, while the bigger aircraft kept them busy. It's basically a ninja

But the problem is when the enemy is focussed entirely on you and its alert level is high, the same ninja can be shot down fromj a mile using a bullet before it can pose any threat to you. its what happened to the ill fated M21.
Its not like that Abhi didnt know that PAF air defences is fully alert and there is a real risk of getting shot down before coming in a position to use his ninja Sword. Also its possible that they have under estimated the PAF's hunger to teach IAF a lesson, and there didnt expected deployment of almost all the resources PAF had(including all Air assets, Awacs, EW assets etc) for such a small skirmish and hoped that PAF will play down the event.
As common sense says that Ninjas are obsolete in modern times and IAF helped to prove it once again. Hope they have learned some lessons and dont try to teach USAF some other obsolete lessons in future.

In terms of technology, it has the same weapons options and EW capabilities as the MKI and older Mig-29.

Then lets hope IAF come out of its slumber and stop Su30s from becoming a 500 pound Sumo with weapons and tactics of a ninja. it will be disastrous for them. Man even a common man with common sense can see through their follies. IAF is in disastrous situation and so is IA. And they have no plans to even correct it. @Milspec

In fact it was our most capable BVR fighter after the MKI throughout the 2000s

Barring few and recent Rafale, we have nothing that can take on MLUed PAF F16 to block 52 stranded, not even upgraded M2000. So yes you are right unfortunately. Hope LCA mk1 can fill the gap to an extent with AESA and Astra mk2 and DERBY-ER BVRAAM and some EW Pod

. As for showing off on the Mig-21, it's one of the hardest aircraft to fly, and for pretty much all fighter pilots before the Hawk, they all started off on the Mig-21, so there's nothing surprising about making it their last as well.

Of course it is. Its like driving Maruti zen without any kind of electric or hydraulic steering assist in the age of Autonomous Drive. But then what good it will do, im not sure. Our Forces love to do primitive and dangerous and quite frankly useless and stupid stunts. How can one forget the naked display of stupidy on every 15 Agust and 26 jan on Rajpath like those flying bike riders with telescope on their hands. Top Babus love it to make joke of our armed forces and the nation in general.
For them bayonet and wooden carrying handle in an infantry rifle is much more important than kinematics of the bullet, ergonomics of the weapon or essentials like Red dot and basic 4X magnification.

 

[Hydra]

M2000's RCS is below 1m2, actually 0.8m2, and the LCA Mk1's RCS is three times lower than the M2000's. So that's 0.3m2. Mk1A further sees RCS improvements.

A test pilot from HAL, that too a person who advertise HAL product like anything himself said low RCS of a non stealth aircraft dont plat role in actuall combat.

 

[TARGET]

But the problem is when the enemy is focussed entirely on you and its alert level is high, the same ninja can be shot down fromj a mile using a bullet before it can pose any threat to you. its what happened to the ill fated M21.
Its not like that Abhi didnt know that PAF air defences is fully alert and there is a real risk of getting shot down before coming in a position to use his ninja Sword. Also its possible that they have under estimated the PAF's hunger to teach IAF a lesson, and there didnt expected deployment of almost all the resources PAF had(including all Air assets, Awacs, EW assets etc) for such a small skirmish and hoped that PAF will play down the event.
As common sense says that Ninjas are obsolete in modern times and IAF helped to prove it once again. Hope they have learned some lessons and dont try to teach USAF some other obsolete lessons in future.

In a fight you can't be invisible, you will get punches, Yes, we should be better prepared but it will be foolish if we think we will not get hit next time...We are now focusing against their papa china, so in few years PAF will be far behind IAF. we are growing exponentially in air defense, air transportation, etc.

 

[AbRaj]

In a fight you can't be invisible, you will get punches, Yes, we should be better prepared but it will be foolish if we think we will not get hit next time...We are now focusing against their papa china, so in few years PAF will be far behind IAF. we are growing exponentially in air defense, air transportation, etc.

True. But problem is IAF thinks its way too supirior than enemies and can wipe out them is 2 days as Random said earlier.
Dont you think that their priorities are wrong when they buy super expensive fighters in very limited amount while willfully letting 200+ Su30s becoming obsolete and rot away like they did with Mig 21. Sukhois can be upgraded to atleast SM standered if not Su35 standered in very economical way and that will bring more than half of the total IAF fleet to lavel playing field with F16 blk52 of PAF and J10, J16 and Su35 of ChiAF

 

[TARGET]

True. But problem is IAF thinks its way too supirior than enemies and can wipe out them is 2 days as Random said earlier.
Dont you think that their priorities are wrong when they buy super expensive fighters in very limited amount while willfully letting 200+ Su30s becoming obsolete and rot away like they did with Mig 21. Sukhois can be upgraded to atleast SM standered if not Su35 standered in very economical way and that will bring more than half of the total IAF fleet to lavel playing field with F16 blk52 of PAF and J10, J16 and Su35 of ChiAF

IAF is proud of serving the country like other Indian defense organizations... Yes, I also agree if required IAF can wipe out all PAF assets in two days... they do have that firepower, and that too without crossing LOC, We lost many decades without proper modernization now with the fixed budget we have to check our priorities . Fighter aircraft is the part of the team, not the complete package so we have to improve in every aspect e.g.transportation, air defense,maintenance, etc

 

[SammyBoi]

I believe the '2 days to decimate PAF' claim stems from Ex Gagan Shakti in 2018, where the IAF conducted 5000+ sorties within 3 days, in a 'sustained surge' phase. Then IAF Chief said it was approximately twice the number of sorties the entire PAF could've generated within a week.
@randomradio
@AbRaj

 

[AbRaj]

I believe the '2 days to decimate PAF' claim stems from Ex Gagan Shakti in 2018, where the IAF conducted 5000+ sorties within 3 days, in a 'sustained surge' phase. Then IAF Chief said it was approximately twice the number of sorties the entire PAF could've generated within a week.
@randomradio
@AbRaj

Gagan Shakti was a logistical exercise with focus on Maritime and A2G role and almost no A2A combat. And PAF have hardly any logistical assets barring few rusted C130E and few MI17. They dont need much anyway because all of their army is deployed at LOC and IB round the year unlike us.

 

[Sathya]

True. But problem is IAF thinks its way too supirior than enemies and can wipe out them is 2 days as Random said earlier.
Dont you think that their priorities are wrong when they buy super expensive fighters in very limited amount while willfully letting 200+ Su30s becoming obsolete and rot away like they did with Mig 21. Sukhois can be upgraded to atleast SM standered if not Su35 standered in very economical way and that will bring more than half of the total IAF fleet to lavel playing field with F16 blk52 of PAF and J10, J16 and Su35 of ChiAF

36 Rafale will bring in offensive capabilities that 230 Su mki upg cannot.
With Nuke capabilities, Rafale brings in deterrence more than Su 30 can.

But I am also tired of waiting Super sukhoi.
I think some su 30 mki will retire without undergoing any upgrade.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

GAGAN SHAKTI was only about SURGE operations ie the Sortie Generation Rate

The Million Dollar Question in a Conflict is the Availability of Man And Machine

We have been experimenting with Sleep Deprivation for our pilots for 2 days using controlled Substances like Amphetamines under Medical Supervision

Similarly the Maintenance Command , The Air Defence command and the Network Centric Command -- All were put under the " Grinder " to see the Deployability and Availability of Resources

The Biggest question is that What will IAF use for SEAD and DEAD operations

If we go for Brahmos and SCALP Missile Barrages Then Su 30 and its RCS Does NOT matter

SU 30 can Defeat the F 16 in Air To Air Combat

SU 30 has been equipped with SPICE and SAAW inspite of its RCS

RAFALE is good for AWACS and Tankers
And their Escorts

And MiG 29 and Mirage 2000 are enough for JF 17

By the way , Each Tejas carried out 3 sorties per day in Gagan Shakti

 

[screambowl]

IAF MiG 21 inventory is the goldmine of IAF... so many peoples pocket money come from these maintenance jobs

Absolutely!

 

[AbRaj]

36 Rafale will bring in offensive capabilities that 230 Su mki upg cannot.
With Nuke capabilities, Rafale brings in deterrence more than Su 30 can.

True, but at the cost of exhausting all IAF resources so much so that they cant even upgrade their backbone fighter.
Rafale is good choice but I do think that Gripen too could have brought almost the same capability at lower price and a better Tech deal.

But I am also tired of waiting Super sukhoi.
I think some su 30 mki will retire without undergoing any upgrade.

I too fear that in few years Su30 too will be reduced to jaguar type bomber role. Infact to an extent it already is. you can check various exercises and the role IAF uses it for. Its always either for acrobatics or droping dumb bombs. hardly anything else. Even LGBs are done by M2000 or LCA.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

True, but at the cost of exhausting all IAF resources so much so that they cant even upgrade their backbone fighter.
Rafale is good choice but I do think that Gripen too could have brought almost the same capability at lower price and a better Tech deal.

I too fear that in few years Su30 too will be reduced to jaguar type bomber role. Infact to an extent it already is. you can check various exercises and the role IAF uses it for. Its always either for acrobatics or droping dumb bombs. hardly anything else. Even LGBs are done by M2000 or LCA.

Sukhoi only needs better Jammers
To evade BVR Missiles

And A derivative of UTTAM Aesa will be the Replacement of BARS

In BVR Combat , It Comes down to the Power of Radar Vs Power of the Jammer

If the Radar is more powerful , the BVR missile will will burn through the Jammer

And while evading the BVRs , the Su 30
Comes close for WVR combat

In WVR , Sukhoi is much superior than
F 16 , that is.why the PAF F 16s were avoiding WVR fight with the Sukhois

Also , we can use the Sukhoi as a Dedicated Jamming Aircraft like the the J 16 D or Growler

During Balakot Sukhois were part of the Deception Package

While PAF was focussed on Su 30 which was going coming close towards Bahwalpur , The Mirage 2000 just sneaked in

The Same Tactics can be used along with RAFALE

 

[Paro]

A pair of su30s can knock out an airbase out of commission for a while. There is a reason IAF went with off the shelf pgms rather than saaw.

Paf is never a problem in an all out war. The problem is china. Not because they have a bigger airforce (which they dont) but because of what their Rocket regiments can do to our infrastructure.

 

[Hydra]

Rafale is good choice but I do think that Gripen too could have brought almost the same capability at lower price and a better Tech deal.

I

@Picdelamirand-oil can answer ot better. I dont think Gripen can be a match for Rafale. It already failed to pass mmrca1 hurdle.

 

[Sathya]

@Picdelamirand-oil can answer ot better. I dont think Gripen can be a match for Rafale. It already failed to pass mmrca1 hurdle.

Except that Rafale is costlier, to buy and to upgrade. No source codes for the 36 no.
Rest all its advantage Rafale.

Gripen though economical comes with many negative s. Foremost it ll cross the pathway of Tejas.

It would have become like buying Kamov when LUH is happening.