Air Battle over Kashmir : MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16

[Hydra]

Except that Rafale is costlier, to buy and to upgrade. No source codes for the 36 no.
Rest all its advantage Rafale.

Gripen though economical comes with many negative s. Foremost it ll cross the pathway of Tejas.

It would have become like buying Kamov when LUH is happening.

Gripen is having an impressive EW suit, definitely a better aircraft than Tejas. Dont know how its EW system perfom against Rafale

 

[AbRaj]

Gripen though economical comes with many negative s. Foremost it ll cross the pathway of Tejas.

It would have become like buying Kamov when LUH is happening.

Gripen E is not far behind to rafale as proved by the many trials conducted by neutral countries and considering the price advantage and low maintenance.

Regarding competition with LCA, its opposite IMO. Gripen subsystems could have been easily integrated into LCA as the SAAB was saying. LCA and Gripen are complimentary to each other. The biggest hurdle to LCA development is Money and Tech and Gripen could have helped in both regards. we could have used Saab EW suite in LCA , common radar, similar Weapons,Engine, same toolings and same supply chain for sub systems for both.
it was the best choice if you take LCA development in account. Also look at Mk2 which is very similar but slightly inferior to Gripen E in performance.

 

[Hydra]

Gripen E is not far behind to rafale as proved by the many trials conducted by neutral countries and considering the price advantage and low maintenance.

Regarding competition with LCA, its opposite IMO. Gripen subsystems could have been easily integrated into LCA as the SAAB was saying. LCA and Gripen are complimentary to each other. The biggest hurdle to LCA development is Money and Tech and Gripen could have helped in both regards. we could have used Saab EW suite in LCA , common radar, similar Weapons,Engine, same toolings and same supply chain for sub systems for both.
it was the best choice if you take LCA development in account. Also look at Mk2 which is very similar but slightly inferior to Gripen E in performance.

We have the option of using French AESA on Tejas, why we didn't utilizes that opportunity ?

 

[Sathya]

Gripen E is not far behind to rafale as proved by the many trials conducted by neutral countries and considering the price advantage and low maintenance.

Regarding competition with LCA, its opposite IMO. Gripen subsystems could have been easily integrated into LCA as the SAAB was saying. LCA and Gripen are complimentary to each other. The biggest hurdle to LCA development is Money and Tech and Gripen could have helped in both regards. we could have used Saab EW suite in LCA , common radar, similar Weapons,Engine, same toolings and same supply chain for sub systems for both.
it was the best choice if you take LCA development in account. Also look at Mk2 which is very similar but slightly inferior to Gripen E in performance.

Agreed if only things happen how we think.

That has never happened, we only keep importing..

There is something happening around Mk2.

Hellfire indicated GE demanding pound of flesh not even blood.. In Twitter, if I understood correctly.

We have the option of using French AESA on Tejas, why we didn't utilizes that opportunity ?

We had a program running, Thales was expensive, so we chose ELTA.

 

[AbRaj]

We have the option of using French AESA on Tejas, why we didn't utilizes that opportunity ?

I dont think its practical to use Radar from one vendor and Ew suite, weapon, engine from others. integration will be Too costly and time consuming.
OTOH with SAAB deal we could have got everything tailored for GE414 and in a similar sized air frame without spending anything extra for integration or any extra time for integration. Also unnecessary stuff could have been replaced by domestic one present in LCA even in Gripen E.

 

[randomradio]

Also Its the most effective way of Population Control, IAF had employed in its history.

I have yet to see a single physical evidence to support that "IAF Claim". may be its like all of their usual claims and devoid of any truth, who knows. its very similar to PAF claim of downing of single/multiple Su30s without showing any evidence to support that. so theoretically in the Claims department too, PAF wins hands down specially considering claims like Doosra Banda and Teesra in Hospital.
Also they had a burning Mig21 and the captured and beaten pilot to show off unlike IAF with a metal piece of an AMRAAM.
Plus we had a downed heli with six charred bodies and a jubilating and cheering mob to show our incompetence too.
Its too tragic to even remember

But the problem is when the enemy is focussed entirely on you and its alert level is high, the same ninja can be shot down fromj a mile using a bullet before it can pose any threat to you. its what happened to the ill fated M21.
Its not like that Abhi didnt know that PAF air defences is fully alert and there is a real risk of getting shot down before coming in a position to use his ninja Sword. Also its possible that they have under estimated the PAF's hunger to teach IAF a lesson, and there didnt expected deployment of almost all the resources PAF had(including all Air assets, Awacs, EW assets etc) for such a small skirmish and hoped that PAF will play down the event.
As common sense says that Ninjas are obsolete in modern times and IAF helped to prove it once again. Hope they have learned some lessons and dont try to teach USAF some other obsolete lessons in future.

Then lets hope IAF come out of its slumber and stop Su30s from becoming a 500 pound Sumo with weapons and tactics of a ninja. it will be disastrous for them. Man even a common man with common sense can see through their follies. IAF is in disastrous situation and so is IA. And they have no plans to even correct it. @Milspec

Barring few and recent Rafale, we have nothing that can take on MLUed PAF F16 to block 52 stranded, not even upgraded M2000. So yes you are right unfortunately. Hope LCA mk1 can fill the gap to an extent with AESA and Astra mk2 and DERBY-ER BVRAAM and some EW Pod

Of course it is. Its like driving Maruti zen without any kind of electric or hydraulic steering assist in the age of Autonomous Drive. But then what good it will do, im not sure. Our Forces love to do primitive and dangerous and quite frankly useless and stupid stunts. How can one forget the naked display of stupidy on every 15 Agust and 26 jan on Rajpath like those flying bike riders with telescope on their hands. Top Babus love it to make joke of our armed forces and the nation in general.
For them bayonet and wooden carrying handle in an infantry rifle is much more important than kinematics of the bullet, ergonomics of the weapon or essentials like Red dot and basic 4X magnification.

Why do you think the F-15 is so superior to the F-16 in air-to-air combat?

A test pilot from HAL, that too a person who advertise HAL product like anything himself said low RCS of a non stealth aircraft dont plat role in actuall combat.

Ah, yes, "we don't need the Rafale to replace the Su-30MKI, so we should just keep buying more Su-30s instead" argument.

 

[randomradio]

I believe the '2 days to decimate PAF' claim stems from Ex Gagan Shakti in 2018, where the IAF conducted 5000+ sorties within 3 days, in a 'sustained surge' phase. Then IAF Chief said it was approximately twice the number of sorties the entire PAF could've generated within a week.
@randomradio
@AbRaj

Apart from technology, where they have no made any significant gains in the last 10+ years, we have them beat in logistics. And the latter plays a much larger part in creating a huge disparity between the two of us. PAF needs to create new forces from scratch if they are to match us, and they obviously do not have the resources or the access to technology to do that at this time.

For example, if they are to match us with technology we have today, first they need to get something better than the current F-16, at least half a generation, if not a generation ahead. So you can imagine how long that's going to take.

Furthermore we have complicated the situation for them due to our plans of fielding a massive IADS. So they are going to have to increase their intake of fighter jets and new technologies drastically. Right now, all they can do is those Balakot type skirmishes, which is not sufficient to even scratch us, and they can't financially afford to keep doing that either.

 

[Hydra]

Why do you think the F-15 is so superior to the F-16 in air-to-air combat?


Ah, yes, "we don't need the Rafale to replace the Su-30MKI, so we should just keep buying more Su-30s instead" argument.

I dont think that we had selected Rafale because its having low RCS. Its the overall capability made ys to choose that.

 

[AbRaj]

Why do you think the F-15 is so superior to the F-16 in air-to-air combat?

same armaments with Better Radar and higher TWR and High service ceiling in F15.
F15 radar is huge

 

[screambowl]

at least half a generation, if not a generation ahead. So you can imagine how long that's going to take.

What if Pakistanis field their F16s and enhance their network centric capabilities in coordination with China in Aksai Hind where a Chinese radar in the east identifies the Indian fighter jet and relays it's actual position to the pakistani fighter jet flying in the western sector, is it possible?

 

[randomradio]

same armaments with Better Radar and higher TWR and High service ceiling in F15.
F15 radar is huge

Yes, so the F-15 had that advantage over the F-16 even though both had the same weapons. Now the MKI with even better performance and radar than the F-15 is facing the same F-16. So why do you think the IAF is making a disastrous decision with it?

 

[randomradio]

What if Pakistanis field their F16s and enhance their network centric capabilities in coordination with China in Aksai Hind where a Chinese radar in the east identifies the Indian fighter jet and relays it's actual position to the pakistani fighter jet flying in the western sector, is it possible?

They can do all that, but without the F-16s. For all other jets, the Pakistanis and Chinese can work together to integrate their air defences, but that's unlikely to happen because the Chinese have no intention of transferring their secrets to anyone. And the Pakistanis will also not want to surrender themselves to China in that way, at least at this time. While technically feasible, politically it's not.

But who knows what will happen in the future...

 

[AbRaj]

Yes, so the F-15 had that advantage over the F-16 even though both had the same weapons. Now the MKI with even better performance and radar than the F-15 is facing the same F-16. So why do you think the IAF is making a disastrous decision with it?

Inferior weapon (IAF SU30), Inferior bars Radar vs AN/APG 68 that can lock on Su30 first thanks to its huge RCS and can be easily jammed by AN/ALQ-131 Electronic pod due to better integration with main Radar AN/APG 68 unlike non synchronized Bars and Elta EL/M-8222.
Also AIM 120 is jam resistent
@WHOHE

 

[randomradio]

Inferior weapon (IAF SU30), Inferior bars Radar vs AN/APG 68 that can lock on Su30 first thanks to its huge RCS and can be easily jammed by AN/ALQ-131 Electronic pod due to better integration with main Radar AN/APG 68 unlike non synchronized Bars and Elta EL/M-8222.
Also AIM 120 is jam resistent

So the F-15 maintains advantage over the F-16, but the Su-30 doesn't? And what makes you think MKI's EW suite and radar are not fused? And why is a 20-year old missile like the Aim-120C5 jam-resistent?

 

[AbRaj]

So the F-15 maintains advantage over the F-16, but the Su-30 doesn't?

because of Inferior weapon, Radar, EW suit integration

And what makes you think MKI's EW suite and radar are not fused?

Have read it in many chatter boxes which looked logical too

And why is a 20-year old missile like the Aim-120C5 jam-resistent?

Same reason why F22 is still the only operational 5th gen combat jet (till few years earlier) ie they both were designed in that way

Upgrade the electronics of SU30 AND it will F15 too. thats what Chinease did with their Flankers

 

[randomradio]

because of Inferior weapon, Radar, EW suit integration

So the F-15 does not use sensor fusion, but the MKI uses sensor fusion with mroe and better sensors, and it's still inferior?

Have read it in many chatter boxes which looked logical too

The MKI has sensor fusion.

Same reason why F22 is still the only operational 5th gen combat jet (till few years earlier) ie they both were designed in that way

Upgrade the electronics of SU30 AND it will F15 too. thats what Chinease did with their Flankers

How does any of that make AIM-120 jam-resistant?

 

[Lolwa]

Yes, so the F-15 had that advantage over the F-16 even though both had the same weapons. Now the MKI with even better performance and radar than the F-15 is facing the same F-16. So why do you think the IAF is making a disastrous decision with it?

APG 82 is far superior to the bars. Plus f15EX would be able to carry stealth weapons like the JASSM-ER. And carry a payload of 13 tons.

 

[randomradio]

APG 82 is far superior to the bars. Plus f15EX would be able to carry stealth weapons like the JASSM-ER. And carry a payload of 13 tons.

You are talking about 2020. I am talking about the 1990s, when the F-15C and F-16C were of similar eras, and the 2000s, when the MKI stepped into the ring. With the exception of some limited modernisation and weapons, the PAF F-16s are more or less where the Americans were in the 90s. And we are comparing that era's F-16 with the MKI, that has a PESA radar, sensor fusion, SDR, digital EW with GaN, all-aspect WVR, upcoming modern BVR etc. If the PAF ever goes for the next F-16 upgrade, it's only for the 18 B52s, and that's sometime deep into the late 2030s, hence irrelevant.

Anyway, the F-15EX and F-16 B70 are more or less the same in A2A combat, since the F-15EX gives up the performance of the F-15C and has a very large RCS anyway. Their avionics suites are similar.

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

PAF has no intention or interest to Fight inside Indian Territory

They are going to rely on Stand off PGMs and Cruise missiles

Also they will rely on PL 10 / PL 15 to foil our attacks , since Aim 120 stocks are limited

So our strategy must include targetting
Their Air Bases , first and foremost

Feb 26 and Feb 27 were like a
"Cricket match " -- first you attack , then I will attack

Next time PLAAF will also use Pakistani Airbases

 

[thinkingcap81]

Just the 36 Rafales gives us a massive advantage over the PAF.

Are the numbers adequate against PAF? Possibly with the S400 and the upcoming IADS we'll be very much safer.

Our deterrence should be sufficient that drones don't drop ammunition across LoC for terrorists.

Why not?


Er... What PAF did was very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very normal. Emphasis on very.

It's like saying damn we lost the Indo-Pak cricket match because the Pakistani players entered the ground. Nah, mate, it's about what they do after they are in. Air forces can't create a magic wall that stops the enemy from entering our airspace, especially when the difference between our airspace and their's is just an imaginary line on a piece of paper.

Why 'yes'? US stops Pak from threatening nukes but there's no respite from terrorists and ammunition? What about continuous support to local boys to pick up guns and pent stones? If US has stopped Pak's nuke deterrence, and as you claim that we have overwhelming power, what is stopping us from continuously threatening them with retaliatory action?

Why are we giving much higher impetus to economic strangulation rather than retaliatory strikes?

Agreed, lobbing a few glide bombs across LoC is no big deal. But nothing much has changed - so what if IA could send drones across LoC to target PA bunkers?

Things are not adding up.