Air Battle over Kashmir : MiG-21 Bison shoots down F-16

[Hellfire]

I will still put the AWAC's initial position over Himachal Pradesh. It moved north later when the PAF strike packgae took Bar CAP position. Plus putting AWAC over Patnitop will make it vulnerable to high speed dash missile firing by F-16s. The distance from LOC to Patnitop is very less. Moreover Patnitop already has very powerful radars which look further deep in Pakistan.

The exact location was East of Patni top. I am giving it as a reference.

And no, PAF would not have targeted the AWACS which was well within Indian territory.

02 reasons:

Too big a target that could have been explained away as a threat to its fighters.
An Il76 transport of 44 Sqn was passing through over the Banihal at the time too. It, infact, landed at Sri just as the Spyder took off to down the Mi17

So, not of consequence.

Now coming back, how was AWACS not in station, when I have drawn the circle as a marker for its coverage?

Second contention which every wannabe expert from IAF, IA, IN wants to throw around without using their brains:

IAF was outgunned.

IAF has been using R27s since 30 years on Mig-29s and almost 20 years on Su-30MKI. Can anyone tell me, how is R27 pegged at 100+ kms, outgunned?

Because, like most sensation creators, people forget that BVR in active jamming is a game of how powerful your RADAR is in terms of output to be able to 'burn through' active jamming. That these, the burn through, is inversely proportional to the relative distance of the radar to the jammer, no one wants to remember when posting nonsense.

 

[vstol Jockey]

The exact location was East of Patni top. I am giving it as a reference.

And no, PAF would not have targeted the AWACS which was well within Indian territory.

02 reasons:

Too big a target that could have been explained away as a threat to its fighters.
An Il76 transport of 44 Sqn was passing through over the Banihal at the time too. It, infact, landed at Sri just as the Spyder took off to down the Mi17

So, not of consequence.

Now coming back, how was AWACS not in station, when I have drawn the circle as a marker for its coverage?

Second contention which every wannabe expert from IAF, IA, IN wants to throw around without using their brains:

IAF was outgunned.

IAF has been using R27s since 30 years on Mig-29s and almost 20 years on Su-30MKI. Can anyone tell me, how is R27 pegged at 100+ kms, outgunned?

Because, like most sensation creators, people forget that BVR in active jamming is a game of how powerful your RADAR is in terms of output to be able to 'burn through' active jamming. That these, the burn through, is inversely proportional to the relative distance of the radar to the jammer, no one wants to remember when posting nonsense.

If I remember correctly, I never stated that IAF was outgunned. I had stated that IAF was surprised and that they failed to appriciate that so many aircraft getting airborne from various bases is a real trouble. I did state that SU-30s were at a lower level and so did not get firing solution on high flying F-16s. If you recollect I had posted that we do have missiles to counter C5s and that the primary reason was the altitude difference.

 

[Saaho]

The exact location was East of Patni top. I am giving it as a reference.

And no, PAF would not have targeted the AWACS which was well within Indian territory.

02 reasons:

Too big a target that could have been explained away as a threat to its fighters.
An Il76 transport of 44 Sqn was passing through over the Banihal at the time too. It, infact, landed at Sri just as the Spyder took off to down the Mi17

So, not of consequence.

Now coming back, how was AWACS not in station, when I have drawn the circle as a marker for its coverage?

Second contention which every wannabe expert from IAF, IA, IN wants to throw around without using their brains:

IAF was outgunned.

IAF has been using R27s since 30 years on Mig-29s and almost 20 years on Su-30MKI. Can anyone tell me, how is R27 pegged at 100+ kms, outgunned?

Because, like most sensation creators, people forget that BVR in active jamming is a game of how powerful your RADAR is in terms of output to be able to 'burn through' active jamming. That these, the burn through, is inversely proportional to the relative distance of the radar to the jammer, no one wants to remember when posting nonsense.

R27-ER with range 120 km
R27-ET with range 130 km

But these are SAHR and IR guided, right? Can our AWACS guide them?

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

@vstol Jockey @Falcon

Sir, Both of you should tell us more about
The Undeclared attacks By India post Feb 27

Both IAF and IA have been aggressive and have stamped their authority on the enemy

That is Not the symptoms of a Country which " supposedly Lost " a battle or is Vulnerable due to serious deficiencies

 

[screambowl]

The exact location was East of Patni top. I am giving it as a reference.

Plus putting AWAC over Patnitop will make it vulnerable to high speed dash missile firing by F-16s.

Awacs was some 150 Km inside LOC
Amraam could not hit it

And no, PAF would not have targeted the AWACS which was well within Indian territory.

They will always know the location of AWAC thru their ESM systems. They dont need to even get their radars on.

So did PAF fire upon AWACS ? And the missiles if fired were jammed?

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

So did PAF fire upon AWACS ? And the missiles if fired were jammed?

No they only fired at Su 30 and MiG 21

Awacs was out of range for Amraams

 

[vikata]

on brf ppl were having discussion that one of our su 30 faced aviation malfunction and had to head back , that'why the role of avenger became the talk of the town as it showed the true potential of su 30

 

[vstol Jockey]

So did PAF fire upon AWACS ? And the missiles if fired were jammed?

The primary aim was to take down at least one Su-30MKI and strike our forward army locations. They had probably noticed the AWAC station prior to 27th and also noticed its pattern. It is for this reason that they headed initially away from the IB/LOC and then converged to do what they did. F-16s had taken up positions before M3/5s but sudden arrival of Bisons created the panic.
Any fighter pilot will go for an AWAC first if he can.

 

[Hellfire]

So did PAF fire upon AWACS ? And the missiles if fired were jammed?

No.

Neither did they try nor would they have.

 

[Hellfire]

on brf ppl were having discussion that one of our su 30 faced aviation malfunction and had to head back , that'why the role of avenger became the talk of the town as it showed the true potential of su 30

speculative. spicy masala

 

[Hellfire]

R27-ER with range 120 km
R27-ET with range 130 km

But these are SAHR and IR guided, right? Can our AWACS guide them?

SAHR will use the guidance data of launch aircraft for primary target gathering ... hence the useless logic of launching in a BVR mode with active jammers making it impossible to get a 'fix' on target.

Theoretically - yes for the second Q

 

[Hellfire]

If I remember correctly, I never stated that IAF was outgunned. I had stated that IAF was surprised and that they failed to appriciate that so many aircraft getting airborne from various bases is a real trouble. I did state that SU-30s were at a lower level and so did not get firing solution on high flying F-16s. If you recollect I had posted that we do have missiles to counter C5s and that the primary reason was the altitude difference.

Never said you have said of outgun. This is with reference to the self acclaimed experts including airforce pilots.

And no , IAF was not surprised.

It was always expected. And the fact of the matter is that the priority of ATC Sri was to clear the airspace of Indian civil aircrafts over J&K. The volume of aircrafts in the airspace was astounding, hence, priority was to divert them/prioritize landing. This delayed the response by a few minutes.

I do not consider clearing the airspace of civil traffic and saving precious lives in the process any kind of surprise.
Do you?

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

on brf ppl were having discussion that one of our su 30 faced aviation malfunction and had to head back , that'why the role of avenger became the talk of the town as it showed the true potential of su 30

This was written by Snehesh Alex Philip in
His article in Print

He also wrote about one Mirage 2000 experiencing Technical Glitch

 

[Hellfire]

This was written by Snehesh Alex Philip in
His article in Print

He also wrote about one Mirage experiencing Technical Glitch

Took his article and tore it up ... he is yet to respond on twitter. Don;t have time to write a point by point rebuttal as @nair knows why ... but trust me ... can blow holes and then some in his write up.

 

[randomradio]

Second contention which every wannabe expert from IAF, IA, IN wants to throw around without using their brains:

IAF was outgunned.

I don't exactly get why they keep claiming this, even veterans. Maybe they are saying it due to certain political compulsions, as a show of support to the Rafale, because I don't believe they do not know about the R-27. And then the fact that the MKI dodged AMRAAMs from 30Km away, putting the F-16s in the range of the shorter range R-77 as well. Nobody fires from Dmax anyway.

 

[vikata]

This was written by Snehesh Alex Philip in
His article in Print

He also wrote about one Mirage 2000 experiencing Technical Glitch

probably he or Pakistani got hint frm one another as Pakistanis too were claiming that jf 17 jammed the mirage avionics

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Took his article and tore it up ... he is yet to respond on twitter. Don;t have time to write a point by point rebuttal as @nair knows why ... but trust me ... can blow holes and then some in his write up.

And the Pakistanis on PDF took that article and further expanded it

They claimed.that Mirage flew through a
" Chaff Corridor " And that led to Technical
Glitches

 

[vikata]

Took his article and tore it up ... he is yet to respond on twitter. Don;t have time to write a point by point rebuttal as @nair knows why ... but trust me ... can blow holes and then some in his write up.

if these guys write such a phoney article all the time ,why they still has the access to the top brass of the forces , they get interview at the very drop of the hat

 

[vstol Jockey]

I do not consider clearing the airspace of civil traffic and saving precious lives in the process any kind of surprise.
Do you?

My post regarding the surprise was about the initial build up. IAF failed to correctly analyse the situation and build up. They reacted late when the entire strike was already in place.
Now imagine if we had started getting our fighters like Mig-29s/additional M2Ks and SU-30MKI airborne when we detected such large formations getting airborne in pak airspace. We should have suspected a game. But we delayed launch of additional fighters. I am very sure that if we had launched our own fighters when we noticed those formations, most likely PAF would not have even attempted what they did on 27th.
If you read my post just after 27th, I had even stated that once they had fired at our fighters, we should have counter attacked the returning strikes in Pakistan with our fighters from Punjab and Rajasthan.
However the game plan was probably to block them first and avoid any major damage and strike using other means which got spoiled by Abhi.

 

[randomradio]

R27-ER with range 120 km
R27-ET with range 130 km

But these are SAHR and IR guided, right? Can our AWACS guide them?

Even active missiles have to be guided until their seeker kicks in, and that's only the last 10-15 seconds or so. Furthermore, MKIs have large sweep angles, so they can turn away at a 90deg angle and still continue to guide missiles without reducing the distance. The missile can also be handed over to a different MKI in order to continue guiding it.