British/Italian Tempest (GCAP) Fighter : News and Discussion

[BMD]

Definitely. But that's really not what we are discussing.



Against the Gripen? No chance. Just upgrading the radar won't make a difference. The Typhoon needs next gen avionics with sensor fusion. Maybe if a proper Tranche 4 is made with next gen avionics, then we can talk about it.



Haha. Okay.

The Captor-E will fulfill all the passive and active requirements of an EW system and it's 1.5 times the size of the Gripen's. Plus the Gripen will be weighed down by a million drop tanks because it's fuel fraction is so poor, which also increase its RCS. The Typhoon also has every kinematic advantage in the book for launching and and tilting radar to allow it to go evasive sooner after launching.

We have experience with every aspect of stealth design, what does India or Sweden have by comparison? Tejas, Gripen? Bitch please!

 

[randomradio]

The Captor-E will fulfill all the passive and active requirements of an EW system and it's 1.5 times the size of the Gripen's. Plus the Gripen will be weighed down by a million drop tanks because it's fuel fraction is so poor, which also increase its RCS. The Typhoon also has every kinematic advantage in the book for launching and and tilting radar to allow it to go evasive sooner after launching.

Firstly, Typhoon's radar diameter is only about 100mm more than Gripen's, nowhere near 1.5 times as big in terms of area, at best about 1.25 times. So it's not very different. Secondly, if radar was the be all and end all of air combat, then the Su-35 with its massive radar makes the Typhoon useless. Plus the Su-35 has superior fuel fraction and a tilting radar as well, negating Typhoon's advantage completely.

The fact is the overall avionics of the Gripen E build is a generation ahead compared to whatever's on the Typhoon today. And even in the near future, the Typhoon isn't expected to match it. I'd definitely rate advanced datalink and sensor fusion at a much higher scale than a marginal advantage in radar performance. You are basically comparing 4th gen with 5th gen and assuming 4th gen is better.

We have experience with every aspect of stealth design, what does India or Sweden have by comparison? Tejas, Gripen? Bitch please!

Right now, more than Britain. Did you forget AMCA is already a step ahead? We are in the production stage. Your Tempest is not even vapourware today.

 

[BMD]

Firstly, Typhoon's radar diameter is only about 100mm more than Gripen's, nowhere near 1.5 times as big in terms of area, at best about 1.25 times. So it's not very different. Secondly, if radar was the be all and end all of air combat, then the Su-35 with its massive radar makes the Typhoon useless. Plus the Su-35 has superior fuel fraction and a tilting radar as well, negating Typhoon's advantage completely.

The fact is the overall avionics of the Gripen E build is a generation ahead compared to whatever's on the Typhoon today. And even in the near future, the Typhoon isn't expected to match it. I'd definitely rate advanced datalink and sensor fusion at a much higher scale than a marginal advantage in radar performance. You are basically comparing 4th gen with 5th gen and assuming 4th gen is better.



Right now, more than Britain. Did you forget AMCA is already a step ahead? We are in the production stage. Your Tempest is not even vapourware today.

Only 1,000 modules vs 1,500. The Su-35 doesn't have AESA as of yet and has a huge RCS, and no Meteor.

The radar is what allows you to lock and kill an aircraft at range, that simple. Sensor fusion gives you a better battlefield picture but the UK has AEW and Sentinel for that. Captor-E with also do jamming, so there's no way that smaller radar with the same tech will get lock first, and in near visual range it's screwed because the ASRAAM will outrange the IRIS-T every day of the week.

Please! A step ahead how, has it flown like Taranis and the F-35, have you spent years doing the studies and RCS testing? Give me a *censored*ing break, you're going to jump from Tejas to AMCA in the click of your fingers. The Russian's tried with the Project 1.44 and the Su-57. The origins of the 1.44 began in the early '80s, when they already had the Su-27, which you still haven't designed an equivalent of. The Chinese have also tried since the early '90s to end up with a reasonably stealthy aircraft that's aerodynamically unsound. The Tejas is something lower down the evolutionary ladder than an F-16A or Mirage III and you're going to do in a few years what the Soviets/Russians and Chinese have failed to do in 30-40 years.

 

[randomradio]

Only 1,000 modules vs 1,500.

Lol. Since the hardware is the same, so is the scaling.

The Su-35 doesn't have AESA as of yet and has a huge RCS, and no Meteor.

Temporary. Plus the Irbis works like an AESA as long as it's doing just 1 or 2 things at a time, it's a hybrid PESA after all. Regardless, the Su-35 will still retain first look against the Typhoon. The Typhoon is not a stealth aircraft, just a 4th gen jet, not even 4.5th gen. And you are comparing a real plane with a paper plane since the Typhoon is yet to get an AESA radar. So please first try and catch up with the Su-35 before comparing the Typhoon with Gripen E.

The radar is what allows you to lock and kill an aircraft at range, that simple. Sensor fusion gives you a better battlefield picture but the UK has AEW and Sentinel for that. Captor-E with also do jamming, so there's no way that smaller radar with the same tech will get lock first, and in near visual range it's screwed because the ASRAAM will outrange the IRIS-T every day of the week.

Not really. It's not that simple anymore, since now you are dealing with a lot more data. How would you even know what you locked and killed was a an enemy in the first place? If all your aircraft can do is find some random target think its the enemy and then kill it, you are most definitely going to die. You need a combination of onboard and offboard sensor fusion if you are to even identify the enemy from all the clutter, both natural and deliberate. The Typhoon is way behind in this area.

Hell, the Typhoon is not even capable of SEAD/DEAD, when that's the basic requirement for Gripen E. There's only hope that the ECR variant will be made. The Typhoon will be lucky to even survive an encounter with a Mirage 2000 in BVR, let alone Gripen E, and definitely zero chance of success against a capable SAM.

Carlo Kopp called the Typhoon a lemon two decades ago and it still stands true today. The way it is today, the Typhoon is marginally better than older generation Flankers and Eagles.

Please! A step ahead how, has it flown like Taranis and the F-35, have you spent years doing the studies and RCS testing? Give me a *censored*ing break, you're going to jump from Tejas to AMCA in the click of your fingers. The Russian's tried with the Project 1.44 and the Su-57. The origins of the 1.44 began in the early '80s, when they already had the Su-27, which you still haven't designed an equivalent of. The Chinese have also tried since the early '90s to end up with a reasonably stealthy aircraft that's aerodynamically unsound. The Tejas is something lower down the evolutionary ladder than an F-16A or Mirage III and you're going to do in a few years what the Soviets/Russians and Chinese have failed to do in 30-40 years.

Our achievement in developing LCA from scratch is even greater than an established player developing a stealth aircraft. Anyway, the main point that clinches the argument in our favour is that the IAF has abandoned an import program in order to support an indigenous program, alongside a public announcement that AMCA will be the main next gen induction for the IAF, it shows the level of confidence they have shown in our industry. The fact is even LCA Mk1A is a 4.5th gen aircraft whereas the Typhoon is still 4th gen.

There's nothing significantly amazing about Taranis that we can apply toa next gen fighter jet and Britain did nothing on the F-35. The F-35 was all designed and built by Americans in America. Even BAE's participation is mainly limited to BAE USA, where the scientific manpower is composed of US residents with the IPR controlled by Americans. The F-35 is not a British program.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

No, it's not polite to mistreat my friend like that.

 

[_Anonymous_]

No, it's not polite to mistreat my friend like that.

Are you referring to @BMD as your "friend? " Frenemy is the term you're looking for, I believe.

 

[Picdelamirand-oil]

Are you referring to @BMD as your "friend? " Frenemy is the term you're looking for, I believe.

One day some journalists who were interviewing Marcel Dassault tried to make him say that the Rafale was much better than the Typhoon, and they couldn't do it. And then Dassault realised what they were doing and he told them: you know you try to make me speak badly of an English plane, but I could never speak badly of an English plane, because I waited so long for English planes when I was in the German concentration camps.
So sometimes I try to get close to its greatness.

 

[_Anonymous_]

One day some journalists who were interviewing Marcel Dassault tried to make him say that the Rafale was much better than the Typhoon, and they couldn't do it. And then Dassault realised what they were doing and he told them: you know you try to make me speak badly of an English plane, but I could never speak badly of an English plane, because I waited so long for English planes when I was in the German concentration camps.
So sometimes I try to get close to its greatness.

So, you're saying the Rafale is inferior to the Typhoon & all the iterations of the Rafale is trying to get as close to greatness aka the Typhoon as possible. I knew the French were incapable of modesty. Never knew they're so subtle in condescension towards the English. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if all this goes over Paddy's head.

 

[BMD]

Lol. Since the hardware is the same, so is the scaling.



Temporary. Plus the Irbis works like an AESA as long as it's doing just 1 or 2 things at a time, it's a hybrid PESA after all. Regardless, the Su-35 will still retain first look against the Typhoon. The Typhoon is not a stealth aircraft, just a 4th gen jet, not even 4.5th gen. And you are comparing a real plane with a paper plane since the Typhoon is yet to get an AESA radar. So please first try and catch up with the Su-35 before comparing the Typhoon with Gripen E.



Not really. It's not that simple anymore, since now you are dealing with a lot more data. How would you even know what you locked and killed was a an enemy in the first place? If all your aircraft can do is find some random target think its the enemy and then kill it, you are most definitely going to die. You need a combination of onboard and offboard sensor fusion if you are to even identify the enemy from all the clutter, both natural and deliberate. The Typhoon is way behind in this area.

Hell, the Typhoon is not even capable of SEAD/DEAD, when that's the basic requirement for Gripen E. There's only hope that the ECR variant will be made. The Typhoon will be lucky to even survive an encounter with a Mirage 2000 in BVR, let alone Gripen E, and definitely zero chance of success against a capable SAM.

Carlo Kopp called the Typhoon a lemon two decades ago and it still stands true today. The way it is today, the Typhoon is marginally better than older generation Flankers and Eagles.



Our achievement in developing LCA from scratch is even greater than an established player developing a stealth aircraft. Anyway, the main point that clinches the argument in our favour is that the IAF has abandoned an import program in order to support an indigenous program, alongside a public announcement that AMCA will be the main next gen induction for the IAF, it shows the level of confidence they have shown in our industry. The fact is even LCA Mk1A is a 4.5th gen aircraft whereas the Typhoon is still 4th gen.

There's nothing significantly amazing about Taranis that we can apply toa next gen fighter jet and Britain did nothing on the F-35. The F-35 was all designed and built by Americans in America. Even BAE's participation is mainly limited to BAE USA, where the scientific manpower is composed of US residents with the IPR controlled by Americans. The F-35 is not a British program.

Yes and 1.5x the area is a big difference.

Irbis-E doesn't have EA as tested by Bright Adder.

NCR is how, plus AEW tracking information.

Carlo Kopp is a fruitcake like Sprey.

We were developing planes from scratch over 100 years ago, welcome to early 20th century.

What's the closest thing you've built to Taranis? Air-fix models?

So far this is what I find for the NGFS:

https://twitter.com/x/status/848034682549792768

Some obvious problems with this design for a fighter.

 

[randomradio]

Yes and 1.5x the area is a big difference.

Maybe if you actually do the math involved, you will realise your own mistake.

Irbis-E doesn't have EA as tested by Bright Adder.

Lol, neither does the Typhoon. Your Bright Adder will come around the time Su-35 undergoes its next round of modernisation. The fact is your adder died a long time ago, it was a TD program and didn't see any results, what you have now is the ECRS Mk2.

The ECRS Mk1 is now an old radar, while the world is moving on towards GaN, whereas the ECRS Mk2 is still sitting in some drawer somewhere with scientists hoping it will be resurrect. The LCA has obviously beaten the Typhoon in the AESA race. Hopefully this time, British Typhoons will actually get this Radar 2 before LCA Mk2 becomes operational. I mean seriously, if your aircraft now is in competition with an upstart, you know you have seriously screwed up.

I still remember how the British dreamt the Bright Adder will be able to pry the MMRCA competition away from the Rafale. Man, how long ago was that? Even before LCA Mk1A was conceptualised.

Carlo Kopp is a fruitcake like Sprey.

At least Carlo Kopp is right about the Typhoon.

We were developing planes from scratch over 100 years ago, welcome to early 20th century.

Funny how quickly we caught up.

What's the closest thing you've built to Taranis? Air-fix models?

You will know soon enough.

So far this is what I find for the NGFS:

https://twitter.com/x/status/848034682549792768

Some obvious problems with this design for a fighter.

I find it impressive that you have given an April Fool's joke such serious consderation.

 

[randomradio]

No, it's not polite to mistreat my friend like that.

Occasionally a good dose of reality is needed. Their carrier program is an obvious evidence of their screwup. The Typhoon has long followed that path, and the Tempest could also be headed the same way if Saab doesn't join the program.

 

[Sathya]

UK isn't in any urgent need of modern fighters, they can afford to go slow.
Especially F35 is already available to them.

Whereas India is in urgent need, no matter how fast we move up its still isn't enough..

I hope mk2 gets into parallel production fast in Nasik facility at least before the end on mk1A production.

 

[BMD]

Maybe if you actually do the math involved, you will realise your own mistake.



Lol, neither does the Typhoon. Your Bright Adder will come around the time Su-35 undergoes its next round of modernisation. The fact is your adder died a long time ago, it was a TD program and didn't see any results, what you have now is the ECRS Mk2.

The ECRS Mk1 is now an old radar, while the world is moving on towards GaN, whereas the ECRS Mk2 is still sitting in some drawer somewhere with scientists hoping it will be resurrect. The LCA has obviously beaten the Typhoon in the AESA race. Hopefully this time, British Typhoons will actually get this Radar 2 before LCA Mk2 becomes operational. I mean seriously, if your aircraft now is in competition with an upstart, you know you have seriously screwed up.

I still remember how the British dreamt the Bright Adder will be able to pry the MMRCA competition away from the Rafale. Man, how long ago was that? Even before LCA Mk1A was conceptualised.



At least Carlo Kopp is right about the Typhoon.



Funny how quickly we caught up.



You will know soon enough.



I find it impressive that you have given an April Fool's joke such serious consderation.

I've done the maths, in particular the Gain equation.

Captor-E will have EA.

Has Irbis-E had any program equivalent to Bright Adder? Bright Adder probably would have come to fruition with more exports.

Radar 2 will likely form the basis for evolving a conformal radar for Tempest.

He's never been right about anything, neither has Sprey who didn't even want to give modern fighters radars.

Yeah, you caught up to about 1960 with the Tejas, well done.

O RLY? So you haven't built anything close to the Tempest yet. You're at about the same stage as Iran's Qahar right now.

Likewise, Sweden producing a domestic stealth fighter with its own resources is an April Fool's Joke. France has teamed up with Germany, Britain has teamed up with Italy (and Sweden), and you think, Sweden, with 1/6th of the GDP of any of the aforementioned and no prior development work will produce one on its own?

 

[STEPHEN COHEN]

Lol. Since the hardware is the same, so is the scaling.



Temporary. Plus the Irbis works like an AESA as long as it's doing just 1 or 2 things at a time, it's a hybrid PESA after all. Regardless, the Su-35 will still retain first look against the Typhoon. The Typhoon is not a stealth aircraft, just a 4th gen jet, not even 4.5th gen. And you are comparing a real plane with a paper plane since the Typhoon is yet to get an AESA radar. So please first try and catch up with the Su-35 before comparing the Typhoon with Gripen E.



Not really. It's not that simple anymore, since now you are dealing with a lot more data. How would you even know what you locked and killed was a an enemy in the first place? If all your aircraft can do is find some random target think its the enemy and then kill it, you are most definitely going to die. You need a combination of onboard and offboard sensor fusion if you are to even identify the enemy from all the clutter, both natural and deliberate. The Typhoon is way behind in this area.

Hell, the Typhoon is not even capable of SEAD/DEAD, when that's the basic requirement for Gripen E. There's only hope that the ECR variant will be made. The Typhoon will be lucky to even survive an encounter with a Mirage 2000 in BVR, let alone Gripen E, and definitely zero chance of success against a capable SAM.

Carlo Kopp called the Typhoon a lemon two decades ago and it still stands true today. The way it is today, the Typhoon is marginally better than older generation Flankers and Eagles.



Our achievement in developing LCA from scratch is even greater than an established player developing a stealth aircraft. Anyway, the main point that clinches the argument in our favour is that the IAF has abandoned an import program in order to support an indigenous program, alongside a public announcement that AMCA will be the main next gen induction for the IAF, it shows the level of confidence they have shown in our industry. The fact is even LCA Mk1A is a 4.5th gen aircraft whereas the Typhoon is still 4th gen.

There's nothing significantly amazing about Taranis that we can apply toa next gen fighter jet and Britain did nothing on the F-35. The F-35 was all designed and built by Americans in America. Even BAE's participation is mainly limited to BAE USA, where the scientific manpower is composed of US residents with the IPR controlled by Americans. The F-35 is not a British program.

If Eurofighter is so weak , why did we select it for Final Negotiations in 2011

India shortlists European fighter jets

India shortlists European fighter jets

www.livemint.com

 

[randomradio]

If Eurofighter is so weak , why did we select it for Final Negotiations in 2011

India shortlists European fighter jets

India shortlists European fighter jets

www.livemint.com

When the shortlist came, it wasn't based on avionics but on performance. At the time both Rafale and EF did not have AESA radar for example. The Indian version of the EF was yet to be developed. But the problem is it's been more than 10 years since then, the Rafale has pushed ahead by leaps and bounds while the EF has stayed stagnant. The EF's current development path is so slow that it won't match the 2013 version of Rafale until 2025, by which time Rafale would have crossed any semblance of resemblance to the Typhoon with the F4.2.

Today, even our Mig-29UPG's avionics are similar to the Typhoon. The M2000 is even more advanced. And the LCA Mk1A is half a generation ahead. That's a very embarrassing position for the Typhoon to be in today. Even if it's upgraded with ECRS Mk1, it still won't be equal to what the Rafale was back in 2013. That's how far behind it has fallen. And here people are claiming the Typhoon is better than the Gripen E, laughable.

 

[randomradio]

I've done the maths, in particular the Gain equation.

You should start with the dimensions first.

Captor-E will have EA.

Yeah, 'kay. It doesn't matter. Nor is it impressive.

Has Irbis-E had any program equivalent to Bright Adder? Bright Adder probably would have come to fruition with more exports.

In 2014, I could actually buy the Irbis. If I went around shopping for a "Bright Adder" even in 2021, then all I would get is a black adder covered in bling.

Radar 2 will likely form the basis for evolving a conformal radar for Tempest.

Unlikely. Anyway, there's nothing impressive about it. It's all in your head.

Any radar for Tempest will come out of better-accomplished Italian minds.

He's never been right about anything, neither has Sprey who didn't even want to give modern fighters radars.

Yeah, okay. Maybe all his claims of the F-22 being better than the F-35 is him being not right as well.

O RLY? So you haven't built anything close to the Tempest yet. You're at about the same stage as Iran's Qahar right now.

Well, technically, even the Iranians are ahead compared to the British, since they have actually made their next gen jet. It moves and everything.

Likewise, Sweden producing a domestic stealth fighter with its own resources is an April Fool's Joke. France has teamed up with Germany, Britain has teamed up with Italy (and Sweden), and you think, Sweden, with 1/6th of the GDP of any of the aforementioned and no prior development work will produce one on its own?

As of right now, with Tempest riding on British incompetence, and German incompetence stifling the FCAS, the Swedish are the closest to getting a next gen aircraft out.

 

[BMD]

You should start with the dimensions first.



Yeah, 'kay. It doesn't matter. Nor is it impressive.



In 2014, I could actually buy the Irbis. If I went around shopping for a "Bright Adder" even in 2021, then all I would get is a black adder covered in bling.



Unlikely. Anyway, there's nothing impressive about it. It's all in your head.

Any radar for Tempest will come out of better-accomplished Italian minds.



Yeah, okay. Maybe all his claims of the F-22 being better than the F-35 is him being not right as well.



Well, technically, even the Iranians are ahead compared to the British, since they have actually made their next gen jet. It moves and everything.



As of right now, with Tempest riding on British incompetence, and German incompetence stifling the FCAS, the Swedish are the closest to getting a next gen aircraft out.

I have, 1.5x the area.

Of course not, Tejas's radar is far better right?

Irbis not Irbis-E.

It will come from both minds, Selex ES.

Selex ES - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Depends how you measure it really, the F-22 is obviously better on performance but not avionics.

Yeah, the Qahar 313, if will fly if dropped from a sufficient height.

The German's aren't incompetent, they're just unwilling when it comes to commitment on military projects, which is why they were a bad partner, Italy and the UK were always the parties most interested in pushing Typhoon development forward, and they therefore make a good partner. Sweden has something to offer too but on its own it has neither the technical or financial resources.

 

[_Anonymous_]

I have, 1.5x the area.

Of course not, Tejas's radar is far better right?

Irbis not Irbis-E.

It will come from both minds, Selex ES.

Selex ES - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Depends how you measure it really, the F-22 is obviously better on performance but not avionics.

Yeah, the Qahar 313, if will fly if dropped from a sufficient height.

The German's aren't incompetent, they're just unwilling when it comes to commitment on military projects, which is why they were a bad partner, Italy and the UK were always the parties most interested in pushing Typhoon development forward, and they therefore make a good partner. Sweden has something to offer too but on its own it has neither the technical or financial resources.

Instead of yakking, why don't you tell us with credible references when was the Taranis last flight & it's current status since that's about the only contemporary design the BAe has churned out. The Typhoon is y'days jet & F-35 an US project.

You say Sweden doesn't have enough resources , we make junk & yet barely a couple of years ago we hosted your defence secretary who was keen to have us on board as an equal partner for the Tempest project.

From the way British aviation industry is shaping up, it's going to end up as a footnote in the world aviation history sooner rather than later. With RR in deep trouble, BAe being content as a sub contractor to the US & most of your crown jewels are being gobbled up by the US defense firms , I fail to see what're you so smug about.

 

[BMD]

Instead of yakking, why don't you tell us with credible references when was the Taranis last flight & it's current status since that's about the only contemporary design the BAe has churned out. The Typhoon is y'days jet & F-35 an US project.

You say Sweden doesn't have enough resources , we make junk & yet barely a couple of years ago we hosted your defence secretary who was keen to have us on board as an equal partner for the Tempest project.

From the way British aviation industry is shaping up, it's going to end up as a footnote in the world aviation history sooner rather than later. With RR in deep trouble, BAe being content as a sub contractor to the US & most of your crown jewels are being gobbled up by the US defense firms , I fail to see what're you so smug about.

You do make junk, but your funds are as good as anyone else's.

 

[_Anonymous_]

You do make junk, but your funds are as good as anyone else's.

Fine, we make junk. What's BAe turned out in the last decade. Pls quote with references.