Dassault Rafale - Updates and Discussion

[randomradio]

Yeas, my worry is why investing again on Russian stuffs, after seeing its performance.

The Russian stuff is fine.

U.S. aircraft losses WAR IN THE GULF

* The United States lost 27 airplanes and five helicopters in combat during Operation Desert Storm. Non-combat causes, including mechanical problems, damaged or destroyed eight airplanes and 14 hel…

www.baltimoresun.com

Only downside for that is, we could end up with all F3R version, ys it is good. But against new j20, dont know how effective it is.

Nope. F4.2.

 

[lcafanboy]

Yeas, my worry is why investing again on Russian stuffs, after seeing its performance.

What performance????

Russians are using obsolete fighters and are still winning the war. They haven't used SU-35, SU30SM2, PAKFA, Brahmos aka YAKHONT and yet non of so call super power NATO countries are coming near the borders as they know what will happen if Russians bring their full might and wrath....

Pakistan doesn't have any answer to Su30mkis and upgraded mig29s and Even China won't be able to push them over fully.
Pakistan doesn't have any answer to T90 tanks, Brahmos, s400, etc.

So no there isn't any problem with Russians stuff and can win you war just like they did in 1965 and 1971....

 

[RISING SUN]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1500163581488545794

 

[A Person]

Russians are using obsolete fighters and are still winning the war. They haven't used SU-35, SU30SM2, PAKFA, Brahmos aka YAKHONT and yet non of so call super power NATO countries are coming near the borders as they know what will happen if Russians bring their full might and wrath....

Yeah, a nuclear war.

Remove the six thousand Russian nukes from the equation and Russia would be steamrolled by Europe. I think even just Poland could do it alone. Nobody in the West is afraid of Russia's conventional forces anymore.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Remove the six thousand Russian nukes from the equation and Russia would be steamrolled by Europe. I think even just Poland could do it alone. Nobody in the West is afraid of Russia's conventional forces anymore.

Uh oh !!

The last time one of your countryman of Corsican origin tried it he returned with only 6000 of his half million + men & shortly after that lost his Empire never to recover from the loss again. Ditto for mine & Paddy's favourite corporal from Bavaria. Then there was the little known Charles XII who began the trend & nearly pulled it off before losing his Empire as well .

I wonder what's it with the Russkies that everyone seems to see them as some sort of pushovers.

I think this business of stereotyping ought go stop. Anglos mocking le Francais , Le Francais mocking the Slavs , Ze Germans & Le Francais treating each other with contempt.

Almost all of Europe & beyond having a poor opinion of the Paddys.

Then again the whole exercise of poking fun using stereotypes is just too much fun to resist .

 

[A Person]

I'm not talking about invading Russia but about kicking them out of Ukraine.

 

[_Anonymous_]

I wish some of you actually tried it & set at rest many doubts about the fighting abilities of the rest of Europe too . At least to yourselves. Paddy seems gung ho , undersized urchin doesn't require a 2nd invitation . What's more a Canadian of Chinese origin is several degrees right of the most extreme warmongers here on the issue .

Pls do so & we'd applaud your courage or martyrdom.

 

[screambowl]

Will France put sanctions on India in case India does not vote against Russia?

 

[A Person]

Pls do so & we'd applaud your courage or martyrdom.

As soon as you bring us the six thousand Russian nukes that need to be removed from the equation first.

Will France put sanctions on India in case India does not vote against Russia?

If that happens, Macron is a lot stupider than even I thought. But there's no precedent for that kind of shenanigans; second-hand sanctions are more of a US tactic.

 

[_Anonymous_]

As soon as you bring us the six thousand Russian nukes that need to be removed from the equation first.

Well you were the one who suggested that even Poland could knock over Russia "in Ukraine." Even if the entire issue stayed under the threshold of the N flashpoint I doubt that there are any buyers of that view in here or out there.

 

[A Person]

Take a look at these stranded columns of Russian vehicles stuck in the rasputitsa and think about what a raid of F-16 could do upon them. There's a reason Putin keeps yelling about how he's ready to hit the big red button if NATO intervenes in Ukraine. Even he knows his forces couldn't possibly stand up to NATO.

 

[lcafanboy]

Yeah, a nuclear war.

Remove the six thousand Russian nukes from the equation and Russia would be steamrolled by Europe. I think even just Poland could do it alone. Nobody in the West is afraid of Russia's conventional forces anymore.

I'm not talking about invading Russia but about kicking them out of Ukraine.

Equally remove all NATO nuclear weapons and see the results Last time Hitler did and the entire German army that went inside Russia perished.

And yes without US support all the European countries combined won't be able to contain Russian armed forces and that's a bitter fact. All due to lower defence spending and over dependence on US and NATO pact...

 

[A Person]

The Ukrainian armed forces alone are doing a good job of containing Russian armed forces so far. Yeah they'll probably lose in the end but if they received conventional reinforcements they'd win.

Russia today is not the USSR. In fact Russia today is one remnant of the USSR attempting to invade another remnant of the USSR. You can collect all the Godwin points you want about how Russia defeated Germany back then mostly by virtue of having millions of people to throw in the meatgrinder but facts are facts.

Like, back in the day, the British invaded and conquered India. Do you think the British could invade and conquer India nowadays? Perhaps there are differences between the power relationships back then and the power relationships now...

 

[_Anonymous_]

Take a look at these stranded columns of Russian vehicles stuck in the rasputitsa and think about what a raid of F-16 could do upon them.

This suggests that Russia would undertake such manoeuvres even if Ukraine had a fully functional competent AF. Till date all we've had are speculations from Western analysts about how if Ru armed forces failed to successfully invade the Eastern, Southern, SW parts of Ukraine forming a bridgehead with Moldova within a week , the Russians have lost the war. Nobody's interested in explaining the near total absence of the RuAF in the first week of the campaign.

I'd rather trust Indian analysts on this since they don't have a dog in the fight. Granted that their views maybe slightly skewed in favor of the Russians, but their explanation that Russia wanted to avoid heavy casualties by undertaking a massive Air Land campaign a la Gulf War 1 & 2 ses more logical than any of the propaganda masquerading as analysis Western analysts have been inflicting with.

Are you so sure Russia would follow the same approach if the target was Berlin or Warsaw & not Kyiv / Kiev.

There's a reason Putin keeps yelling about how he's ready to hit the big red button if NATO intervenes in Ukraine. Even he knows his forces couldn't possibly stand up to NATO.

To NATO as a unified entity, the answer is no. To NATO minus the US component, I'd say that NATO would be in for a very rude awakening.

I suspect you know it to be a fact too but you can't bring yourself to admit it. For more fact & intelligence free analysis, do read what Paddy's posting .

 

[A Person]

Just NATO without USA, Canada, and Turkey, is 495 million people; just the EU is 447 million people. Combine those two sets and you get a bloc of 526 million people.

Russia is 146 million people. There's your rude awakening.

 

[_Anonymous_]

Just NATO without USA, Canada, and Turkey, is 495 million people; just the EU is 447 million people. Combine those two sets and you get a bloc of 526 million people.

Russia is 146 million people. There's your rude awakening.

Compare the armed forces of the bloc minus the US component & tell me what is the list of acceptable losses that the European component of NATO willing to accept to prevail over Russia. That could be the moment of your rude awakening .

BTW - just for the sake of perspective - RSA during the apartheid era had a population of barely 5 million as compared to the Native Blacks who numbered some 55 million + .

What was the population of the Mongols when they conquered China & unleashed hell all over the world as far as Central Europe?

Since when is the total population of a nation a true indicator of it's military power? If you argue otherwise , what was the population of the German forces running both occupied & Vichy France as compared to the total population of the French there?

 

[randomradio]

Yeah, a nuclear war.

Remove the six thousand Russian nukes from the equation and Russia would be steamrolled by Europe. I think even just Poland could do it alone. Nobody in the West is afraid of Russia's conventional forces anymore.

I think you've simplified the issue. You need to consider the fact that the RA is fighting with little air and artillery support. Plus with the UA hiding in cities, the Russians do not want to pound those cities before emptying them first.

The RA forces haven't been organised for door-to-door fighting. If you look at the BTGs, they are purely for conventional war. And with 2-3 times the artillery compared to a similarly sized NATO unit, they have no interest in going door to door. They are basically fighting with their dominant arm tied behind their back.

And that example of "stranded" supply lines doesn't make sense. If it was "stranded" due to enemy action, then why is it still "stranded" and not destroyed, even in part? I'd rather think the convoy is where it is supposed to be.

The natural assumption should be the convoy is safe.

Explainer: Is stuck convoy in Ukraine a setback for Russia? - Times of India

Europe News: The convoy, which stretches for as much as 65 kilometers (40 miles) from near Prybisk in the north to the southern end near the Antonov airport, was m

timesofindia.indiatimes.com

Anyway, the problem for NATO comes after, not today, when the RA begins their primary modernisation program. You can also expect this to have given the Russians plenty of experience, so I hope NATO doesn't use this as an excuse to slow down modernisation.

 

[A Person]

Compare the armed forces of the bloc minus the US component & tell me what is the list of acceptable losses that the European component of NATO willing to accept to prevail over Russia. That could be the moment of your rude awakening .

So your argument is that Russia would win because they're willing to lose more troops? If you say so.

But as evidenced by the fight the Ukrainians are bringing, people are willing to fight to the death in order so as to not live under Vlady-Vlad's thumb.

Since when is the total population of a nation a true indicator of it's military power?

Okay, if you want to compare military forces directly, that just means the values are more tedious to get.

Active personnel of the armed forces of the Eurobloc (EU+EuroNATO) : 1 714 000. Reserve forces: 2 837 000. Total 4 551 000.
Active personnel of the Putinian Neo-Tsarist Rodina Empire of Russia (+Belarus): 1 076 000. Reserve forces: 2 344 000. Total 3 420 000.

All types combined, Russia+Belarus get a bit over 950 fighter aircraft. (Not sure if these figures were updated for recent losses; and it's doubtful that all of them are functional, but whatever.) For the Eurobloc, that's 1600 aircraft; and even then I didn't bother counting the very old aircraft that are still in service in some countries (e.g. MiG-21 in Romania).

 

[_Anonymous_]

So your argument is that Russia would win because they're willing to lose more troops? If you say so.

Pls point out where did I state Russia would win such an encounter with NATO minus the US component.

The only way I see it for any side to prevail is it's ability to win the battle of attrition. Does the European component of NATO minus the US component have it in them to win such a war ?

Your answer must also have to factor in decades & generations of the peace dividend that Europe has capitalised on & perhaps their populace & leadership grown accustomed to , external adventures on an extremely limited scale outside of Europe notwithstanding.

But as evidenced by the fight the Ukrainians are bringing, people are willing to fight to the death in order so as to not live under Vlady-Vlad's thumb.

Of course they will . So did the Germans when they were besieged on all 3 sides by the Allies in 1944 particularly in the Battle of Berlin. What's your point ?

Okay, if you want to compare military forces directly, that just means the values are more tedious to get.

Active personnel of the armed forces of the Eurobloc (EU+EuroNATO) : 1 714 000. Reserve forces: 2 837 000. Total 4 551 000.
Active personnel of the Putinian Neo-Tsarist Rodina Empire of Russia (+Belarus): 1 076 000. Reserve forces: 2 344 000. Total 3 420 000.

All types combined, Russia+Belarus get a bit over 950 fighter aircraft. (Not sure if these figures were updated for recent losses; and it's doubtful that all of them are functional, but whatever.) For the Eurobloc, that's 1600 aircraft; and even then I didn't bother counting the very old aircraft that are still in service in some countries (e.g. MiG-21 in Romania).

Has such bean counting ever given you or anyone in history the desired results ? Is this an election we're talking about or war ?

 

[A Person]

Your answer must also have to factor in decades & generations of the peace dividend that Europe has capitalised on & perhaps their populace & leadership grown accustomed to , external adventures on an extremely limited scale outside of Europe notwithstanding.

And your answer must also have to factor in decades & generations of rampant corruption and mismanagement in Russia. That mess started before the Soviet Union crumbled; in fact it's a large factor in why the Soviet Union crumbled so hard that Russia basically became a third-world country in 1991. This mess is why the former Soviet countries that have joined the EU and NATO are much more prosperous (and less corrupt, though there's still a lot of work to do on that front) now than they were before they joined. This mess is why Ukraine, which was hit just as hard as Russia and has remained poor and corrupt to this day, dreams of joining the EU and leaving Russia behind.

Has such bean counting ever given you or anyone in history the desired results ? Is this an election we're talking about or war ?

Well it's obviously not giving you the result you desire.

Point is the conventional forces of the Eurobloc are larger and better equipped than those of the conventional forces of Russia. In a conventional scenario where Europe intervenes in Ukraine to stop Russia, they'd succeed; and they wouldn't need America's help. The whole thing is moot anyway since this scenario has been ruled out.