30 years late and that's just one tech. There is a list if you want it? France can't afford to do next gen by itself. It couldn't even afford to do the Rafale and has taken years to catch to other 4th gen..
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Future Combat Air System (FCAS) - France/Germany
- Thread starter randomradio
- Start date
As said before, the sun is far too bright in Australia.
Don't forget that Rafale technically won in S Korea in.... 2002. F15 was only taken after uncle Sam made high pressure. So it catch the most famous 4th gen bird 20 years ago.
Give me your list please. It will be funny.
It is a question of doctrine.
A good one should be :
1st: define the whole defense doctrine
2nd: define the army and the materials needed
3rd: create the defense budget needed to fulfill the doctrine.
If the doctrine is : a non-aligned state, then France should be able to defend itself autonomously, and produce almost every system needed (including small munitions) and nationalize companies if not economically viable
Selling abroad is not France's state problem.
More a Dassault / Thales / safran ...(etc) problem
A good one should be :
1st: define the whole defense doctrine
2nd: define the army and the materials needed
3rd: create the defense budget needed to fulfill the doctrine.
If the doctrine is : a non-aligned state, then France should be able to defend itself autonomously, and produce almost every system needed (including small munitions) and nationalize companies if not economically viable
Selling abroad is not France's state problem.
More a Dassault / Thales / safran ...(etc) problem
That's not how one compares things. And Su-75 is meant to be a cheap export fighter, nothing special. The Russians are working on what they are calling 7th gen under PAK-DP.
Why will the French or anyone else give us their most cuttig-edge tech?
All that you mentioned can/will be done on the Su-30MKI and Jaguar too. So that means everything you mentioned has nothing to do with what separates the AMCA from NGF (the fighter component in FCAS).
So the real question is how much of a difference is there between an iPhone 1 and iPhone 13? Both are just little boxes with glass screens, and with both you can make calls, send messages, watch videos, take pictures and install apps. Then aren't they in the same generation?
Why not? Its modern iterations are futuristic enough to power the AMCA. One of them will also be used to power an NGF TD, while it waits for the main engine. Our expectation is decent, but not extremely high. It's going to be a clean sheet design, since it's 125KN. The cold parts will be developed in India and the hot parts in France. The hot parts could very well be M88 derived, enough to meet the specs needed. We can even make it a VCE design, I hope. But the real questions are how much electricity can be generated and how it is generated. Rolls-Royce showed off next gen capabilities with the generator embedded directly into the engine, while AMCA may be stuck with the current system of using a CSD, which will be less powerful.
What they said is India will be able to design future engines on its own. It has nothing to do with how advanced the current engine will actually be.
Okay, I'll give you this point, even if I don't think it's true. Primarily because the AF-NGAD is a lot bigger as a program, with multiple engine options, so it could end up having multiple types of fighter planes, and only one of those will be comparable with NGF. At least we know AF-NGAD consists of 2 different fighter jets today, one for use against Russia, the other against China. And then there's a separate NGAD program under the navy with their own design. And then both services will make different variants of those jets too. Can't dismiss hypersonic variants as well under AF-NGAD. Otoh, NGF will likely end up with just 1 common type over the next 40 years, like the Rafale.
These things are answered only with time. But I wouldn't keep my hopes up about AMCA being as good as FCAS, it's not been designed to be its equivalent. AMCA is just a smaller F-22 with more fuel and better materials, perhaps a better engine than what's on the F-22 today. The IAF calls it a 5th gen plane with "some" 6th gen features. NGF is a true 6th gen design.
In some cases, AMCA will be as good or better than FCAS, like agility. But in most next gen features, it's unlikely to be at the same level. For example, the AMCA's unlikely to match the stealth capabilities of a tailless NGF. Then NGF's bigger design will allow it to carry bigger and more capable electronics, perhaps even a generation ahead of AMCA, it's the main advantage of a bigger fighter design. It's unlikely for AMCA to match the NGF's range and payload. Maybe both will be able to supercruise just fine, unless the French decide to install mach 4 capable engines.
We were neutral until we signed the Indo-Soviet Friendship Treaty in 1971. And even after that, the Soviet allowed to keep our neutral status instead of pushing for an alliance because their main goal was to keep the US from getting friendly with India.
No, we make excellent decisions. And I hope we keep making such decisions in the future too.
We can see for ourselves and come to our own conclusions based on our own interests.
Yep, and that's the only reason they helped you dummies. But you continue basing all your policies on half-century-old bollox and see where it gets you.
Oh of course you do, that's why a communist dictatorship now has 6 times your GDP per capita. It's all the good decisions you make.
See above, you seem completely incapable of even evaluating your own decisions. What exactly are you measuring them against to think they are good? Pakistan?
Yes thats the same reason why u cant call SCAF more advanced than AMCA just due to tailed design of AMCA.
its not about just giving but developing and holding joint IP. It may b like CFM international typ collaboration. French will get permanent business in india and thats very lucarative.
jaguar & su 30 mki are not stealth platforms as i have mentioned the platform requires stealth. Moreover they cant have next generation avionics for combat cloud and weapons like dew/lasers. Only MUMT has been planned for them. AMCA has much more advanced system planned that i have already mentioned and same is for SCAF. I suggest you to do the study and find anything particular more advanced in SCAF than AMCA. Just assuming SCAF will be more advanced cannot be justified without comparing parameters.
Our expectations are pretty high if you consider, we want a engine in the weight category of EJ200 and thrust of 125 kN with power to let AMCA supercruise while also providing electrical power to the latest avionics & communication systems, operating MUMT and enough spare power to fire dews/laser weapons. This all while the engine being fuel economic with reduced infra emissions and life cycle of latest engines. M88 based engine is as good as F414. It may just be good enough for initial flight tests. AMCA will feature next generation engine otherwise it wont be accepted by IAF.
US has 3 companies to produce prototypes for competition. They usually select one of them for orders. This tym around they are gonna select 2 out of 3. But all them bring next generation stuff into the competition as per requirements of US. So NGAD, even if 2 or 3 different fighters will be true sixth generation with extreme low observability, true next generation aeronautical performance, computing, sensors and combat capabilities.
Yes NGF will be common platform and also half generation behind NGAD just like rafale is to F22.
AMCA program when started it was envisaged to be a smaller F22 and that was a decade ago. But today the requirements have been finalised to be a 5.5+ gen fighter. Changes have been made accordingly. We all know IAF have alwayz desired latest of requirements being worked upon in Europe in homegrown fighters projects. So AMCA wont be anything less than Tempest or SCAF. IAF calls Su 30 a 3.5 gen plane, rafale & J20 4th gen. They only consider US fighters to be next generation. For them SCAF & tempest will also be 5th gen with 6 th gen features.
I am not able to get from anywhere the envisaged size of SCAF as to how its going to be bigger than AMCA. Kindly give me any link or article etc for size, range & payload otherwise it is not right to assume these. Moreover sizewise Gripen is small & rafale is also not a big fighter but they pack a punch in terms of avionics & sensors and are at par with there larger contemporaries. So meticulous design does help.
But Just a Tailless design cant make a difference of half a generation otherwise YF-23 and X-32 wont have lost out. There
Lol, that was then. Today it's even better, 'cause it's of mutual benefit. They provide even more technology than before and protect us diplomatically. Things used to be much more difficult earlier.
Britain made us that poor.
We have been doing a very good job since 1991.
We will own 100% IP of the new engine. The French get nothing except the R&D cost. It's not a JV, it's a total transfer of technology and IP, both 100%.
A stealth fighter is irrelevant to combat cloud and drones. Those are just external aids, like AWACS.
The French won't give us FCAS tech unless we buy into FCAS.
A decade ago, AMCA was a semi-stealth fighter with no supercruise. It was meant to replace the Jaguar. The requirements changed after FGFA ended.
Are you Chinese? They are the ones who push numbers down by a notch.
The IAF calls Su-30MKI a 4.5th gen plane. The difference between MKI and Rafale is, the MKI is an old 4.5th gen plane, and Rafale is a modern 4.5th gen plane. MKI MLU will bring it up to modern status too. The F-35, J-20 and F-22 are 5th gen. FCAS, Tempest etc are 6th gen.
Just look up the photos of the NGF. The scale puts it in the same category as the F-22 and Su-57. NGF is expected to weigh 33-34T at MTOW, AMCA is 25T.
Go through this thread for more details, at least from June 2019.
Germany is essentially an anglo-american slave state. So not surprising. The French are better off teaming up with Egypt than with the Germans at this point for the FCAS.
The FCAS, if it actually goes ahead, is owned by the Germans and the Spanish, so you'll have to deal with them.
That's one of the many, many reason why it was a stupid idea and it will hopefully crumble under its own impossibility.
True dat. It's unlikely for Germany to allow its export, let alone the technologies developed under it.
Yeah, well you will always have a potential seat at the P5 vetoed due to your Russia position.
Maybe but you at least had twice the GDP/capita of China in 1947. Your dozen-fold worse performance in the interceding 75 years is your own fault.
No, you haven't. China's still killing you. In fact the delta just became worse in 1991. Proof you don't even know what 'doing well' is. And the improvements are mostly down western-driven globalisation rather than any good decisions.
Joint IP also means each partner holds 100% IP. JV may b a option under consideration. Remember the presentation by Safran to RM. Engine was even called INFRA. That suggests joint IP like Brahmos. It will also involve technologies developed by GTRE not just 100% TOT.
Sorry to disagree with you but if you go through this thread again than clearly you will find stealth fighter (fifth generation) to be absolutely essential component of combat cloud. That was confirmed by Airbus head or some higher official involved in SCAF program.
France is ready to co develop engine with india to gain indian market and get money for R&D.
AERO INDIA: New Model Of India's 5th Gen Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft - Livefist
Photos by Shiv Aroor
www.livefistdefence.com
Please dont feel offended, I have referred to what IAF has submitted in Honourable Supreme Court of India regarding need for Rafale. They have clearly told Su 30 to be 3.5 gen & rafale to be 4th gen needed to counter 4th gen New chinese fighters i.e. indirect reference to J20.
I will once again implore you to go through project objectives of SCAF & Tempest and you will find nothing which may b called 6th gen but same as those of 5.5+ gen AMCA. Even dassault & airbus only claimed SCAF to be better than Rafales & euro fighter in stealth, manoeuvrability & survivability.
See even if weight category of NGF is higher than also fighters with dissimilar weights can fall in same capabilities regarding generations. eg SH, rafale, eurofighter & gripen.
Now, let me give you some points why AMCA will be equivalent to SCAF & Tempest:-
1) Same program objectives of AMCA , tempest & SCAF and IAF clearly specifying it to be 5.5+ gen.
2) US & Israel backing for Indian industry in AMCA for advanced technologies
3) Offsets from Rafale and help in tejas mk2 & TEDBF will enable us to be at par with Europe except engine.
4) Semiconductor industry advancements from concept& design to manufacturing in India by 2030 coupled with already big software industry.
5) advancements of indian industry in AI.
6) AMCA engine is expected to take atleast 10 years and 8-10 prototypes, whereas first flight of SCAF with M88 derived engine is scheduled in 2026. Therefore, AMCA engine will be as advanced as production SCAF engine or Tempest engine due to similar timelines.
7) Phased program of ADA to improve stealth technologies from Tejas mk2 to TEDBF to AMCA mk1 to AMCA mk2 covering all aspects active as well as passive stealth step by step.
8) Involvement of many industries working in combination as well as working in parallel. Such as CATS warrior, IUSAV & FUFA will supplement for air superiority and ground attack rather than just one or two typ UCAV with FCAS or Tempest. Similarly, india may have more variety of hypersonic weapons than European programs.
8) US being leader in aerospace technology will define 6th gen like they have been doing since 3rd gen fighters and rest of world doing catch up after a decade or two. No one will be at the same technology level as US in same timeframe. So only NGAD is going to be 6th gen rest all will be 5.5+ gen. Europe has been left atleast 1.5 decades behind US. It is ridiculous to think they can catch up US now that US is so serious for absolute technical superiority than ever before.
That depends on US if US allows the Germans will allow as well. Most of the firms which will be involved (excluding french companies) will have US share.
No. Joint IP means each partner hold 50%. FCAS tech will be held by 3 partners, so ~33% each.
Converting the engine deal into a Brahmos type deal will be a massive downgrade for India. Right now, we are getting 100% ToT and IP. Anything less than that is a massive downgrade. Even 99% is a massive downgrade.
Sure. But he's referring to something else entirely. He's basically saying the NGF has to be developed, and they can't simply use the Rafale and Typhoon. It has nothing to do with what we are discussing.
Sorry i disagree on that coz a decade ago AMCA was fifth gen fully stealth fighter similar to smaller F 22 not a semi stealth. Now it will be a 5.5 gen fighter equiped with HS weapons & dews, combat cloud, AI & MUMT same as SCAF and Tempest.AERO INDIA: New Model Of India's 5th Gen Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft - Livefist
Photos by Shiv Aroor
Back then it was a semi-stealth fighter powered by the F414. So it had shaping and IWB, but that's it. No 5th gen engine. Basically, a little less advanced than AMCA Mk1.
The IAF officer said, LCA is 3.5th gen and MKI is 4th gen.
He said both LCA and Su-30MKI are three and half and fourth generation aircrafts respectively but the requirement of IAF at present is of four plus or fifth generations aircrafts.
In this particular case, it was very specific due to two reasons. LCA is called 3.5th gen because it wasn't integrated with BVR at the time. MKI was called 4th gen because it didn't have AESA. "Generations" can change their meaning in very specific cases, but it's not the case here. Here it's just politics. The AVM did not lie, but did not tell the whole truth either, he only answered to the point. And as per the AVM, Rafale is actually 5th gen.
1. No.
2. Irrelevant.
3. Irrelevant.
4. Irrelevant.
5. It's what makes AMCA 5.5th gen, the software, not the primary hardware. Even LCA will get this tech.
6. Not how it works. AMCA is just late. AMCA and FCAS won't even have the same engines.
7. Sure. But stealth is still restricted by design. If you want full stealth, you have to eliminate the fin and tail. Like the B-2.
8. Having an industry is a minimum requirement.
9. The US used to maintain their lead with the big bang approach. But due to advancements in China, they have taken an evolutionary approach for their next aircraft. So their objective for NGAD is to build it using proven technologies instead of developing brand new technologies like they did with the F-22 and F-35. They are keeping it a bit more simple this time due to their urgency in deploying this tech.
AMCA will be a massive success if it achieved F-22/F-35 class stealth and performance with F-35 Mk2 class avionics. Matching the F-35 Mk2 class avionics while it's being powered by the new AETF itself will be a very tall task for ADA to achieve, never mind FCAS, Tempest, NGAD, Su-57M2/3 etc, all behemoths with bigger 200-250KN engines. So bigger avionics bays, lower design limitations, larger payloads, greater range, higher engine thrust, higher electrical power etc. Just common sense says there's not gonna be much comparison.
I'm just hoping the twin-engine AMCA will be good enough to match the single-engine F-35 Mk2 even when powered by a single NGAD engine.
It's fine if you don't agree with it, but you are setting yourself up for disappointment later on. Since the answer is at least 15 years away, there's no point in debating it now.
The opposite. Our Russia position is why we will not get vetoed by anybody except China. Otherwise, we will get vetoed by both Russia and China.
That has nothing to do with India, it has everything to do with how sh!tty Britain was.
Our role started in 1947, look at how well we did the minute Britain left. We flattened the curve and are now moving up exponentially. We are doing really well. Otoh, China did not get looted for 200 years and in fact received a lot of Western assistance after 1970s.
Nope, there's no America here. FCAS will naturally be ITAR-free.
I don't believe it @suryakiran
FInally a realistic scenario being portrayed by resident storyteller. Do check to see if the handle's not hacked
FInally a realistic scenario being portrayed by resident storyteller. Do check to see if the handle's not hacked